WARNING: CO2-related Death

[Nokoni]

Yikes, that's scary! Glad you're ok.

Yeah, now I sleep with a bandanna looking like a guy who fell asleep while robbing a stagecoach. Definitely safer :)

 

[alywest]

My comment was actually to call you and @Drareg to this thread to see what somebody else who works in ICU thinks about this. You pre-empted me and saw it quite quickly Let's see what @Drareg has to say about it. In my experience, pH is so tightly regulated that even a small change toward either one of the extremes means serious trouble. I have also not seen much change in pH unless the person has serotonin syndrome, sepsis, second and third degree burns or is dying from HIV-related pneumonia (where the lungs are obviously compromised).
So, the claim that some people are chronically stuck in a pH imbalance needs a lot more evidence for me to accept it. Hopefully somebody working in an ER would chime in. I think there were a few doctors who posted here in the past. Maybe @Sheila can chime in as well. For some reason I think she works in a hospital. Also, @Blossom, but she has not been around for a while.

Oh, I don't work in the ICU! Must be someone else. I'm curious what @Drareg has to say, too! All I can think of that would potentially relate to this is Ray PEat stating: "Hyperosmotic sodium chloride solutions (e.g., 7.5%) are being used more often for treating trauma and shock, because the concentrated solution increases blood volume by removing water from the extravascular spaces, unlike the "isotonic" saline (0.9% sodium chloride), which usually adds to the edema by leaking out of the blood vessels." (Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging)

This also seems relevant:

One important function of carbon dioxide is to regulate the movement of positively charged alkali metal ions, such as sodium and calcium. When too much calcium enters a cell it activates many enzymes, prevents muscle and nerve cells from relaxing, and ultimately kills the cell. The constant formation of acidic carbon dioxide in the cell allows the cell to remove calcium, along with the small amount of sodium which is constantly entering the cell.

When there is adequate sodium in the extracellular fluid, the continuous inward movement of sodium ions into the resting cell activates an enzyme, sodium-potassium ATPase, causing ATP to break down into ADP and phosphate, which stimulates the consumption of fuel and oxygen to maintain an adequate level of ATP. Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium.

Hypertonic solutions, containing more than the normal concentration of sodium (from about twice normal to 8 or 10 times normal) are being used to rescuscitate people and animals after injury. Rather than just increasing blood volume to restore circulation, the hypertonic sodium restores cellular energy production, increasing oxygen consumption and heat production while reducing free radical production, improves the contraction and relaxation of the heart muscle, and reduces inflammation, vascular permeability, and edema.
(Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity)

 

[haidut]

Oh, I don't work in the ICU! Must be someone else. I'm curious what @Drareg has to say, too! All I can think of that would potentially relate to this is Ray PEat stating: "Hyperosmotic sodium chloride solutions (e.g., 7.5%) are being used more often for treating trauma and shock, because the concentrated solution increases blood volume by removing water from the extravascular spaces, unlike the "isotonic" saline (0.9% sodium chloride), which usually adds to the edema by leaking out of the blood vessels." (Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging)

This also seems relevant:

One important function of carbon dioxide is to regulate the movement of positively charged alkali metal ions, such as sodium and calcium. When too much calcium enters a cell it activates many enzymes, prevents muscle and nerve cells from relaxing, and ultimately kills the cell. The constant formation of acidic carbon dioxide in the cell allows the cell to remove calcium, along with the small amount of sodium which is constantly entering the cell.

When there is adequate sodium in the extracellular fluid, the continuous inward movement of sodium ions into the resting cell activates an enzyme, sodium-potassium ATPase, causing ATP to break down into ADP and phosphate, which stimulates the consumption of fuel and oxygen to maintain an adequate level of ATP. Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium.

Hypertonic solutions, containing more than the normal concentration of sodium (from about twice normal to 8 or 10 times normal) are being used to rescuscitate people and animals after injury. Rather than just increasing blood volume to restore circulation, the hypertonic sodium restores cellular energy production, increasing oxygen consumption and heat production while reducing free radical production, improves the contraction and relaxation of the heart muscle, and reduces inflammation, vascular permeability, and edema.
(Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity)

I meant for you and @Drareg to see what somebody working in an ICU (@CLASH) thinks about the CO2 and how it affects the cell, not that you work in an ICU. Also, I think Peat also said that when the cell produces enough CO2 the CO2 takes with itself sodium and calcium as it leaves the cell and thus restores the proper mineral balance so that potassium and magnesium are high inside the cell and low outside of it, while the opposite is true for calcium/sodium. This applies to a relaxed cell obviously, a contracting cell in a muscle will be high in calcium in order to do its work but when the exertion stops and CO2 production returns to normal (i.e. lactate falls) the balance I mentioned is restored.

 

[Xisca]

hundreds of people who are trying to help others

gbolduev, may be because you are a survivor, I can feel some sense of urgency in the "not always very soft" commentaries you can write (when you speak in general), wheras there is a sense of help that emanate in the pfs topic (when you speak in a sense of action and cooperation with the guys). You are a fireman working with quiet strength when you are there!
You can be wrong with certain things, and we will know in 2 or 3 centuries, and you are surely not getting it all in so few years, but you have some logic at the humble basic level. I would just love that you spoke as kindly as you seem when you are not triggered. When it comes to health and saving lives, we can feel so helpless... and yes some die. I was wise to do nothing for my mom, whereas I do what I can for my dad, and even more for me, because it is possible to get better. Gran Canary has been burning for a few days, a woman even died, and the firemen have to choose where they put more strength more men and more efforts.

I can also read internet, but you are right there:

destroys people's already impaired ability to listen to themselves
This is what I am saying. People forgot how to listen to themselves. I think it is needed to steer them into the direction of actually listening to themselves.

We think we know this.
And we do not know it.
And even when we know it, we do not know it as far as it is true about ourself!
I thought I did, but not that much. And even now that I know this, there are still things I do not hear of myself. But at least I know this and Ii am curious. You will see, you will one day feel even more, and you will be surprised when you will look at your past.

What you say is very important, and this is what I learned in years of training in tracking body sensations!
The felt sense is underestimated, and it cannot be taught unless by experience. We think in our society that instinct are something... very reduced to a few things. People who meditate or do some aikido, yoga and such, they do know this. And they for sure have noticed that they 1st had a wrong idea about what it was to feel the body sensations, this unspoken voice as says Peter Levine.

The theme of feeling the food we need can be first. I can see how animals do this. Now the cooperation I am interested in personally, is how far we can go into feeling ourselves without the hair test for example. I am trying to guess more about myself, and do it in my log. I try to articulate it more with the science, but I do not want to forget listening to me. I have found something interesting for example when I realized that I was liking meat less than before. I have changed something in my food this week-end, and I feel full, quiet, and not hungry inside, and also I feel softer in my whole feeling.

 

[alywest]

I meant for you and @Drareg to see what somebody working in an ICU (@CLASH) thinks about the CO2 and how it affects the cell, not that you work in an ICU. Also, I think Peat also said that when the cell produces enough CO2 the CO2 takes with itself sodium and calcium as it leaves the cell and thus restores the proper mineral balance so that potassium and magnesium are high inside the cell and low outside of it, while the opposite is true for calcium/sodium. This applies to a relaxed cell obviously, a contracting cell in a muscle will be high in calcium in order to do its work but when the exertion stops and CO2 production returns to normal (i.e. lactate falls) the balance I mentioned is restored.

LOL, I see, my mistake!

It seems that there is obviously some correlation to acidity/alkilinity here, but that the real devil is in the calcium concentration within the cell (excitatory and toxic) and sodium provides the impetus for the expulsion of calcium by helping to increase energy production and CO2 within the cell, raising the acidity.

 

[aquaman]

I have used a CO2 tank on-and-off for 2 years. Never had issue with it, I always feel great after. Sometimes I use it if i wake in middle of night panicky - and I can literally feel my whole body relaxing, which doesn't fit with Gblod's view of hypoventilation for low thyroid, but fits with Ray's view exactly of hyperventilation especially at night time.

Shame that capnometers are so expensive, otherwise everyone on the board could measure their end tidal CO2 and see if Gbold's low thyroid = high CO2 idea is false.

 

[InChristAlone]

I have used a CO2 tank on-and-off for 2 years. Never had issue with it, I always feel great after. Sometimes I use it if i wake in middle of night panicky - and I can literally feel my whole body relaxing, which doesn't fit with Gblod's view of hypoventilation for low thyroid, but fits with Ray's view exactly of hyperventilation especially at night time.

Shame that capnometers are so expensive, otherwise everyone on the board could measure their end tidal CO2 and see if Gbold's low thyroid = high CO2 idea is false.

He said hyperventilation drops the CO2 too rapidly for the body to lower it's already high bicarbonate and so you get symptoms and then bag breathing will help a panicky situation but isn't really solving why there is a compensation of high bicarbonate. (hope I explained that right)

 

[alywest]

I have used a CO2 tank on-and-off for 2 years. Never had issue with it, I always feel great after. Sometimes I use it if i wake in middle of night panicky - and I can literally feel my whole body relaxing, which doesn't fit with Gblod's view of hypoventilation for low thyroid, but fits with Ray's view exactly of hyperventilation especially at night time.

Shame that capnometers are so expensive, otherwise everyone on the board could measure their end tidal CO2 and see if Gbold's low thyroid = high CO2 idea is false.

Where is he measuring the CO2? In the lungs or in the cell? Obviously in the cell the CO2 is low for a hypothyroid person.

 

[alywest]

He said hyperventilation drops the CO2 too rapidly for the body to lower it's already high bicarbonate and so you get symptoms and then bag breathing will help a panicky situation but isn't really solving why there is a compensation of high bicarbonate. (hope I explained that right)

I don't totally understand how the body can be high in bicarbonate if one is hypothyroid. Would you respond to the following quote from Peat and tell me if you think it jibes with what Gbolduev is saying:

“Calcitonin, vitamin D-active metabolite, and estrogen-”HRT” treaments can cause respiratory alkalosis (relative hyperventilation), and hypothyroidism produces a predisposition to hyperventilation. Hyperventilation tends to cause calcium loss. In respiratory alkalolis, CO2 (and sometimes bicarbonate) are decreased, impairing calcium retention, and in “metabolic alkalosis,” with increased bicarbonate, calcium is retained more efficiently and bone formation is stimulated, and its dissolution is suppressed.” -Ray Peat, PhD

 

[tastyfood]

For a couple months I slept with a pillowcase over my head cinched at the neck with elastic. Then I experimented with a denser fabric pillowcase and woke up hypoxic. Scared me enough to drop the whole thing.

I have tried all sorts of things:

- Mouth taping (this may be beneficial after all)
- putting a small tent over my head.
- Buying a whole "pop" cover (meant for college students that want privacy).

Not sure if any of this helps. If anything, it is cumbersome.

 

[tastyfood]

I have used a CO2 tank on-and-off for 2 years. Never had issue with it, I always feel great after. Sometimes I use it if i wake in middle of night panicky - and I can literally feel my whole body relaxing, which doesn't fit with Gblod's view of hypoventilation for low thyroid, but fits with Ray's view exactly of hyperventilation especially at night time.

Shame that capnometers are so expensive, otherwise everyone on the board could measure their end tidal CO2 and see if Gbold's low thyroid = high CO2 idea is false.

I have a capnometer. My ETCO2 (End Tidal CO2) is low-ish, and I'm hypothyroid.

 

[Nokoni]

If anything, it is cumbersome.

The pillowcase is hot. And dangerous :)

 

[tastyfood]

The pillowcase is hot. And dangerous :)

If it's takes 5 minutes just to get in bed, something is wrong :)

 

[Nokoni]

If it's takes 5 minutes just to get in bed, something is wrong :)

Heck, just sitting back down from letting the cat in takes 5 minutes. (Said the man with the grow light panel on his chest, the doubled-up surgeon's mask on his face, and the blue-blocker glasses on his nose.)

 

[alywest]

Heck, just sitting back down from letting the cat in takes 5 minutes. (Said the man with the grow light panel on his chest, the doubled-up surgeon's mask on his face, and the blue-blocker glasses on his nose.)

Is your grow light panel in the red spectrum?

 

[Nokoni]

in the red spectrum

Yeah, 650 or thereabouts.

 

[alywest]

Yeah, 650 or thereabouts.

If it's affixed to you chest would the electromagnetic radiation cancel out the benefits of red light? lol

 

[alywest]

Acute respiratory alkalosis associated with low minute ventilation in a patient with severe hypothyroidism.
Lee HT, Levine M.
(Obtained from functionalps.com)

 

[Nokoni]

affixed to you chest

Mostly it's propped on my chin. Surgeon's mask makes it comfortable :)

 

[alywest]

Mostly it's propped on my chin. Surgeon's mask makes it comfortable :)

You could always just sleep in a tanning bed with red light instead of UV.