Truly deficient in estrogen.. what is the cause??

[allan442]

I know what the general opinion in regards to estrogen is in this forum. I understand Peats position here.. Having dived into the studies I see the issues with chronically elevated estrogen - no doubt.

But I genuinely believe I am a case with the complete opposite. Steroid use and exemestane has nuked my serum estradiol to zero. I have gotten bloodwork and everything points to no measurable E2. Anything Estrogenic helps, and I’ve conducted so many experiments on myself and unless I’m taking something to immediately raise my estrogen, I’m physically, mentally, and sexually dead. The only long term cure for me is TRT which I’ve tried again at one point - but I have good natural test levels and I really don’t want to be bound to injections due to traveling often. Even on TRT I’m still under 20 pg E2… it’s incredibly frustrating.

I think the problem lies somewhere with mineral balance. Manganese is without a doubt raising my estrogen and it’s been benefiting me quite a bit.. except I fear I’m going to cause more harm so I’m afraid I’m gonna have to stop. I don’t fully grasp the delicate balance of minerals and I’m doubtful anyone really does.

I’ve tried to learn as much as I can but I think something drastic happened following my steroid use and something is preventing aromatase from working.

No, I absolutely do not believe that estrogen is still high in the tissue. I don’t even wanna think about the time I tried Vitamin E, aspirin, vitamin K, or androsterone. They all put me in a much, much darker place.

I know some of you are much more well versed with what minerals influence hormones.. does anyone wanna help me figure this out?

Thanks

 

[allan442]

This is stupid - but if PFS people are benefiting from taking androgenic substances (in some cases) would someone who presumably has a similar issue following AI use benefit from direct estrogen treatment?

Of course, this would probably break the loop and shut me down again.

What are the seemingly permanent (epigenetic?) changes that occurred from either exemestane or testosterone?

 

[Vanset]

Post your natty labs.

 

[allan442]

Post your natty labs.

most recently:

TSH: 1.16
Estradiol: < 11 pg / mL
LH: 6.31
Progesterone: 0.4 ng/mL
Prolactin: 7.8 mg mL
Testosterone: 577 ng/dL

These were only relevant on last test. CBC as usual is fine. Cholesterol is fine, other thyroid parameters are fine. I’ve gotten the more sensitive test for estrogen before by the way, it’s somewhere in the low-mid single digits

 

[allan442]

Post your natty labs.

My doctor doesn’t let me test other parameters.. but if there’s good reason I could pay out of pocket

 

[CSH]

Following.

 

[Vanset]

Common cause of low E2 is high SHBG and low free testosterone levels. Another one is excessively low bf%. There have also been a few posters on this forum claiming that they permanently lowered their E2 with AIs and experienced low estrogen symptoms. "Post-exemestane syndrome".

What's your cholesterol? Ideal cholesterol for hormone synthesis in at least 200 total and 150 LDL.

post more labs in general, the more the better, so people can chime in.

 

[Validus]

What over the counter meds and supplements are you using? Have you tried drinking a beer or 2 every night to increase estrogen?

Also, it would be nice to see your free testosterone as well as your total T as you showed above. Your total T isn't low, but it's not great either.

 

[allan442]

cholesterol is right about where you’re saying it should be. I’m in the camp of post exemestane syndrome I think. Body fat is fine

 

[Validus]

I found this in another forum I'm part of when another member was dealing with HIGH estrogen and was not sure why. You could use this to your advantage and use loratadine to try and increase your E.

" loratadine Because I’m putting the pieces together that my recent bad feelings on TRT is either due to allergies (perhaps causing more stress on already likely depleted adrenals), or allergy medication (loratadine). I’ve seen this somewhat frightening study (‘Loratadine exerts estrogen-like effects and disrupts penile development in the mouse’).

Antihistamines actually activate estrogen RNA expression, i.e. you body reacts as if your plasma estrogen levels had increased. I know of no evidence that they directly increase estradiol or estrogen levels - estradiol is the most potent estrogen - but antihistamines are clearly “estrogen-like” in their properties and what they do to your body.

The authors were very cautious in their assessment in my opinion. Basically, they found a 40% increase with Claritin (loratidine) and 90% with other antihistamines. If you accept that at face value, not only are antihistamines esrogenic, but they can have a clincially negative effect in our littlest boys.

CAN ANTIHISTAMINES INCREASE ESTROGEN / ESTRADIOL LEVELS? Note that the above studies do not support the idea that loratidine or other antihistamines increase actual plasma estradiol levels. Basically, these drugs increase estrogen-like effects though: your body reacts as if you had more estrogen / estradiol floating around."

 

[allan442]

What over the counter meds and supplements are you using? Have you tried drinking a beer or 2 every night to increase estrogen?

Manganese is helping but I’m gonna drop it out of fear of disrupting mineral balance. I have no evidence for this but it’s hitting me the same way as something Estrogenic would.

I found this in another forum I'm part of when another member was dealing with HIGH estrogen and was not sure why. You could use this to your advantage and use loratadine to try and increase your E.

" loratadine Because I’m putting the pieces together that my recent bad feelings on TRT is either due to allergies (perhaps causing more stress on already likely depleted adrenals), or allergy medication (loratadine). I’ve seen this somewhat frightening study (‘Loratadine exerts estrogen-like effects and disrupts penile development in the mouse’).

Antihistamines actually activate estrogen RNA expression, i.e. you body reacts as if your plasma estrogen levels had increased. I know of no evidence that they directly increase estradiol or estrogen levels - estradiol is the most potent estrogen - but antihistamines are clearly “estrogen-like” in their properties and what they do to your body.

The authors were very cautious in their assessment in my opinion. Basically, they found a 40% increase with Claritin (loratidine) and 90% with other antihistamines. If you accept that at face value, not only are antihistamines esrogenic, but they can have a clincially negative effect in our littlest boys.

CAN ANTIHISTAMINES INCREASE ESTROGEN / ESTRADIOL LEVELS? Note that the above studies do not support the idea that loratidine or other antihistamines increase actual plasma estradiol levels. Basically, these drugs increase estrogen-like effects though: your body reacts as if you had more estrogen / estradiol floating around."

Thanks. Don’t you think Peat would have mentioned this? That antihistamines are Estrogenic? I haven’t experimented with it though.. Cypro certainly didn’t help - in fact it made me even more anhedonic and numb.

 

[Validus]

Manganese is helping but I’m gonna drop it out of fear of disrupting mineral balance. I have no evidence for this but it’s hitting me the same way as something Estrogenic would.

Thanks. Don’t you think Peat would have mentioned this? That antihistamines are Estrogenic? I haven’t experimented with it though.. Cypro certainly didn’t help - in fact it made me even more anhedonic and numb.

I don't think one person can know all things about every compound. May just want to start with something simple like claritin and see if that helps how you feel. If you don't hate beer, a beer every night should increase your e2 as well.

You could also try taking DHEA as well, which can increase estrogen.

Also, like I mentioned, I'd be curious to see your free testosterone and not just your total t. Your total T isn't awful, but not great either. It's possible your body just has a higher set point for testosterone and low aromatization. So a middle road testosterone level may not be enough for you as far as converting to estrogen.

 

[allan442]

I should mention from my experience with hormones, I’m familiar with high / low DHT. Without sufficient estrogen (think someone who doesn’t have my issue just took a large dose of an AI), high DHT feels like ***t. Estrogen is necessary to some degree to feel androgenic. Bring your estrogen down to the single digits and see how long you last.

I don't think one person can know all things about every compound. May just want to start with something simple like claritin and see if that helps how you feel. If you don't hate beer, a beer every night should increase your e2 as well.

You could also try taking DHEA as well, which can increase estrogen.

Also, like I mentioned, I'd be curious to see your free testosterone and not just your total t. Your total T isn't awful, but not great either. It's possible your body just has a higher set point for testosterone and low aromatization. So a middle road testosterone level may not be enough for you as far as converting to estrogen.

I meant since he’s a fan of antihistamines. But yeah I don’t see a problem with trying it.. there’s just no study on it besides the one you linked. Beer does help, but I don’t want to drink alcohol. I have tried DHEA in low doses but not high, so that is something I should experiment with.

Yeah, my testosterone isn’t great but it’s definitely not hypogonadal by any means. I had lower testosterone prior to steroids, and a healthy libido. After steroids it’s higher now.

 

[allan442]

Not that everyone with PFS has recovered, but at least there’s some sort of effort or collaboration to recover. Not giving in to learned helplessness here - but of the four or five cases I’ve seen online about this issue.. one person killed themselves and the rest are severely depressed. There just isn’t enough people with this problem.

I’m not depressed thankfully and I think some had it worse than me. But sometimes I consider the possibility of never recovering from this. I try to avoid these thoughts though.

 

[success23]

LH should be lower. Maybe you hormone production took a hit and needs to be brought back up. Maybe try SARMs.

 

[allan442]

LH should be lower. Maybe you hormone production took a hit and needs to be brought back up. Maybe try SARMs.

Yeah, it’s been years unfortunately. SARMs would do more harm?

 

[Hans]

most recently:

TSH: 1.16
Estradiol: < 11 pg / mL
LH: 6.31
Progesterone: 0.4 ng/mL
Prolactin: 7.8 mg mL
Testosterone: 577 ng/dL

These were only relevant on last test. CBC as usual is fine. Cholesterol is fine, other thyroid parameters are fine. I’ve gotten the more sensitive test for estrogen before by the way, it’s somewhere in the low-mid single digits

Your testosterone should be higher with an LH at 6.3, which might indicate a little bit of testicular insensitivity. How long were you on steroids, and which steroids were you on and at which doses? Certain steroids are toxic to the testes.
Have you tried boron and grape seed extract? Both can increase estrogen if it's too low.

Edit: Have you also checked your FSH?

 

[Vanset]

Maybe try a SERM and see what it does to your test and e2. Also post more labs if you have any.

 

[allan442]

Your testosterone should be higher with an LH at 6.3, which might indicate a little bit of testicular insensitivity. How long were you on steroids, and which steroids were you on and at which doses? Certain steroids are toxic to the testes.
Have you tried boron and grape seed extract? Both can increase estrogen if it's too low.

Edit: Have you also checked your FSH?

But even with the likely insensitivity I wouldn’t expect total loss of sexual function. If I can figure that out I’ll try to improve testosterone levels.

80-90% of the time was UGL testosterone enanthate 400-600 mg a week. A 3 month blast, 3 month cruise, and 4 month blast. Towards the end of the second blast I started low dose tren and dropped it after 3/4th pin.. shouldn’t have built up in the tissue really. I tried low dose superdrol at one point for a week, also dropped that. I used UGL exemestane and UGL tamoxifen (which made my brain feel like it was on fire, and could have also contributed to my state) it’s been nearly 3.5 years since coming off roughly

I tried boron, but didn’t confirm with bloodwork. Regardless, not much of an improvement.

I have not tried grape seed extract. Do you think it’s sufficiently estrogenic enough (typically) to experiment with?

 

[Vanset]

Well I might be wrong, but isn't LH of 6 just a tiny bit elevated? It should be like 4-5 no? I would imagine with his E2 his pituitary should be screaming at the top of it's lungs for more. LH of something like 8-9, maybe more.