Absurdly low estrogen

[Vanset]

According to your longer half life reasoning it should be even less of a problem with Clomid. I don't follow your logic.
In practice, both isomers just stop occupying the brain estrogen receptor progressively, giving way to normal hpta regulation.
The phenomenon will be just as smooth whether you quit cold turkey or not given the enormous half life of Clomid.

Clomid is two isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene. Enclomiphene has a half life of around 12 hours and it's the isomer that blocks estrogen at the pituitary and zuclomiphene is an estrogen agonist and has a half life of around 5 days. Enclomiphene (Androxal) is just enclomiphene isomer.

 

[tommyg130]

Clomid is two isomers, enclomiphene and zuclomiphene. Enclomiphene has a half life of around 12 hours and it's the isomer that blocks estrogen at the pituitary and zuclomiphene is an estrogen agonist and has a half life of around 5 days. Enclomiphene (Androxal) is just enclomiphene isomer.

You didn’t really address matestube said ?! What is the diff with blocking estrogen and being an estrogen agonist? Clomid is considered more harmful bc it’s an agonist. Why is that more detrimental then just blocking estrogenlike enclo does. If you could explain it like I’m a 10 year old. Lol

 

[area51puy]

You didn’t really address matestube said ?! What is the diff with blocking estrogen and being an estrogen agonist? Clomid is considered more harmful bc it’s an agonist. Why is that more detrimental then just blocking estrogenlike enclo does. If you could explain it like I’m a 10 year old. Lol

I was looking this and clomid is both an agonist and

Coming off trt I was just worried my androgen to estrogen ratio would be out of wack. After finding this forum I was even more worried about estrogen. So I took a fair amount of aspirin / vitamin E snd a total of 1.5mg AI. I eat zero pufa , lot of caffeine , Oj . So I prob don’t aromotize much anyway.

Anyway lol my T levels and most levels came back but my Estrogen levels are non existent. I even checked the all feared Estrone sulfate. It’s legitatemly not even readable on the blood test. None. Lol I feel awful.

Somehow my sex drive is very strong. Strong morning woods tremendous erections. But my overall energy and mood is garbage. I get dizzy when I bend down, ZERO shot of exercise. I’m a pretty strong person and weights I lifted at 14 feel heavy lol. Just like a distorted gloomy reality. I obviously stopped the AIs.

I’m taking enclo a serm Without the supposed side effects of clomid. I was going to stop but , after seeing those levels I’m going to continue taking it bc I need more Test to make more estrogen. I don’t actually need more test but I need more estrogen. And I’m not going to take estradiol cream lol. But maybe I’ll eat like ***t for a few weeks to bring up my estrogen. Lol zero estrogen . Comical . Prolactin is at 11.0 for whatver that is worth. ZERO ESTROGEN HAHAHA wtf ?. All I can do is laugh and hope I can at least get into normal range.

i was watching some YouTube videos on this and in a study it said it raised estradiol.

@Hans I wonder what they think of this.
This guy has zero estrogen but still has libido which @haidut has said you don’t need estrogen for libido

They tried to approve it as alternative to trt because it raises testosterone without lowering fish and lh levels ,but was denied by the fda, maybe the trt didn’t want competition.

Testosterone restoration using enclomiphene citrate in men with secondary hypogonadism: a pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

• After 6 weeks of continuous use, the mean (sd) concentration of total testosterone at day 42 was 604 (160) ng/dL for men taking the highest dose of enclomiphene citrate (enclomiphene citrate, 25 mg daily) and 500 (278) ng in those men treated with transdermal testosterone. These values were higher than day 1 values but not different from each other (P = 0.23, t-test).
• All three doses of enclomiphene citrate increased the testosterone concentration at time 0 of each 24-h sampling period, and the mean, maximum, minimum and range of testosterone concentrations over the 24-h sampling period. Transdermal testosterone also raised total testosterone, albeit with more variability, and with suppressed LH levels.
• The patterns of total testosterone over the 24-h period after 6 weeks of dosing could be fit to a nonlinear function with morning elevations, mid-day troughs, and rising night-time levels.
• Enclomiphene citrate and transdermal testosterone increased levels of total testosterone within 2 weeks, but they had opposite effects on FSH and LH.
• Treatment with enclomiphene citrate did not significantly affect levels of thyroid-stimulating hormone, adenocorticotropic hormone, cortisol, lipids or bone markers. Both transdermal testosterone and enclomiphene citrate decreased insulin-like growth factor-1 levels (P < 0.05) but suppression was greater in the enclomiphene citrate groups.

Conclusions​

• Enclomiphene citrate increased serum LH and total testosterone; however, there was not a temporal association between the peak drug levels and the maximum concentration levels of LH or total testosterone.
• Enclomiphene citrate consistently increased serum total testosterone into the normal range and increased LH and FSH above the normal range. The effects on LH and total testosterone persisted for at least 1 week after stopping treatment.

 

[Matestube]

You didn’t really address matestube said ?!

Indeed he didn't.
Don't worry, there is no harm in quitting cold turkey just like I explained earlier.

 

[Hans]

@Hans I wonder what they think of this.
This guy has zero estrogen but still has libido which @haidut has said you don’t need estrogen for libido

Nicotine which inhibits brain aromatase can lower libido, but not in everyone.
Estrogen stimulates glutamate, dopamine and NO release, which promote libido. But if you have enough of those without estrogen, then you don't really need estrogen. But also, serum estrogen doesn't represent brain estrogen.

 

[Vanset]

Indeed he didn't.
Don't worry, there is no harm in quitting cold turkey just like I explained earlier.

My point is that since Clomid contains both isomers, one being enclomiphene (which is the one that does all of the work) and zuclomiphene (anti-androgenic compound) and their half lifes differ so significantly then enclomiphene will be almost out of your system in around 60 hours (5 half lifes), but for zuclomiphene it will take around a month to do so (half life of 5 days). So after ~60 hours you will only be left with the anti-androgenic compound in your system for the next 30 or so days. This is not the case with Androxal since it's only the enclomiphene isomer. It might cause some quasi withdrawal symptoms. The zuclomiphene isomer is thought to be the main reason behind the side effects of Clomid because it builds up to much greater amounts in your body given its long half life. I don't understand what you don't understand. That being said I still think quitting cold turkey is the best.

Zuclomifene (INN; or zuclomiphene (USAN)) is a nonsteroidal selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) of the triphenylethylene group that was never marketed.[1][2][3][4] It is one of the two stereoisomers of clomifene, which itself is a mixture of 38% zuclomifene and 62% enclomifene.[4] Zuclomifene is the (Z)-stereoisomer of clomifene, while enclomifene is the (E)-stereoisomer.[1][2] Whereas zuclomifene is described as mildly estrogenic, enclomifene is described as antiestrogenic.[4][5] In accordance, unlike enclomifene, zuclomifene is antigonadotropic due to activation of the estrogen receptor and reduces testosterone levels in men.[4] It is also about five times more potent than enclomifene in inducing ovulation.[5]

 

[Matestube]

My point is that since Clomid contains both isomers, one being enclomiphene (which is the one that does all of the work) and zuclomiphene (anti-androgenic compound) and their half lifes differ so significantly then enclomiphene will be almost out of your system in around 60 hours (5 half lifes), but for zuclomiphene it will take around a month to do so (half life of 5 days). So after ~60 hours you will only be left with the anti-androgenic compound in your system for the next 30 or so days. This is not the case with Androxal since it's only the enclomiphene isomer. It might cause some quasi withdrawal symptoms. I don't understand what you don't understand. That being said I still think quitting cold turkey is the best.

Zuclomifene (INN; or zuclomiphene (USAN)) is a nonsteroidal selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) of the triphenylethylene group that was never marketed.[1][2][3][4] It is one of the two stereoisomers of clomifene, which itself is a mixture of 38% zuclomifene and 62% enclomifene.[4] Zuclomifene is the (Z)-stereoisomer of clomifene, while enclomifene is the (E)-stereoisomer.[1][2] Whereas zuclomifene is described as mildly estrogenic, enclomifene is described as antiestrogenic.[4][5] In accordance, unlike enclomifene, zuclomifene is antigonadotropic due to activation of the estrogen receptor and reduces testosterone levels in men.[4] It is also about five times more potent than enclomifene in inducing ovulation.[5]

That's more clear and makes sense.
Thank you.

 

[tommyg130]

Nicotine which inhibits brain aromatase can lower libido, but not in everyone.
Estrogen stimulates glutamate, dopamine and NO release, which promote libido. But if you have enough of those without estrogen, then you don't really need estrogen. But also, serum estrogen doesn't represent brain estrogen.

Interesting. I wonder how we know if we have brain estrogen lol. Too much complexity haha.

 

[Hans]

Interesting. I wonder how we know if we have brain estrogen lol. Too much complexity haha.

For sure, I'm not sure either haha. Inflammation, oxidative stress and insulin resistance are the most potent inducers of aromatase, which can lead to excess estrogen in the brain and also psychiatric issues.

 

[tommyg130]

For sure, I'm not sure either haha. Inflammation, oxidative stress and insulin resistance are the most potent inducers of aromatase, which can lead to excess estrogen in the brain and also psychiatric issues.

Can you lower those 2 independently ? Say you had low blood estrogen and taking AIs and whatnot made you feel worse . How can you attack just brain estrogen . You mentioned just nicotine? Anything else ? Thanks!

 

[Hans]

Can you lower those 2 independently ? Say you had low blood estrogen and taking AIs and whatnot made you feel worse . How can you attack just brain estrogen . You mentioned just nicotine? Anything else ? Thanks!

I wouldn't try to reduce brain estrogen if your serum estrogen is low. You can always do a DUTCH test to see your total estrogenic pool to see if it's high or low. DHT is a potent estrogen regulator, so making sure your DHT is in check should help.