To Vegetable Or Not To Vegetable. Do You Eat Vegetables?

[lollipop]

Yes. I while back I looked up the goitrogenic effect of some vegetables. The main two goitrogens are the thiocyanate ion and goitrin.

The thiocyanate ion, not to be confused with isothiocyanates, competitively inhibits iodine binding in the thyroid. This is reversible and can be obviated by extra iodine. Everyone has a measurable level of thiocyate ion in their blood, even people that don't eat it. Thiocyanate can be produced endogenously by cyanide (smokers have higher levels). Thiocyanate ions can ultimately come from crucifers, turnips, horseradish, cassava, mustard, ect...

The more powerful goitrogen is 'goitrin'. This is a molecule formed from certain glycosides. There are thousands of glycosides (molecules bound to glucose) in foods, and only one of them seems to release goitrin; and is called progoitrin, or 2-hydroxy-3-butenyl glucosinolate.

It turns out that this compound is high is genus Brassica; species Rapa. This includes rapeseed (see canola oil), bok choy, mustard greens and Russian kale.

Genus Brassica; species oleracea, is low in progoitrin. This includes brocolli, curly kale, lacinato kale, cabbage, cauliflower, ect.

So make sure your Kale is not Russian Kale! Russian Kale has a purple stem! Stay away from Brassica Rapa.

And if you eat thiocyanate-containing vegetables, make sure you get enough iodide through seaweed or sea-animals.

Nice post @Travis

 

[Makrosky]

Yes. I while back I looked up the goitrogenic effect of some vegetables. The main two goitrogens are the thiocyanate ion and goitrin.

The thiocyanate ion, not to be confused with isothiocyanates, competitively inhibits iodine binding in the thyroid. This is reversible and can be obviated by extra iodine. Everyone has a measurable level of thiocyate ion in their blood, even people that don't eat it. Thiocyanate can be produced endogenously by cyanide (smokers have higher levels). Thiocyanate ions can ultimately come from crucifers, turnips, horseradish, cassava, mustard, ect...

The more powerful goitrogen is 'goitrin'. This is a molecule formed from certain glycosides. There are thousands of glycosides (molecules bound to glucose) in foods, and only one of them seems to release goitrin; and is called progoitrin, or 2-hydroxy-3-butenyl glucosinolate.

It turns out that this compound is high is genus Brassica; species Rapa. This includes rapeseed (see canola oil), bok choy, mustard greens and Russian kale.

Genus Brassica; species oleracea, is low in progoitrin. This includes brocolli, curly kale, lacinato kale, cabbage, cauliflower, ect.

So make sure your Kale is not Russian Kale! Russian Kale has a purple stem! Stay away from Brassica Rapa.

And if you eat thiocyanate-containing vegetables, make sure you get enough iodide through seaweed or sea-animals.

Travis... I think cooking inactivates all goitrogens present in the vegetables you mentioned.

 

[Makrosky]

Yes I eat veggies. If not every day, every other day for sure. Although not big ammounts. But I like having them on my diet and no matter what Peat says, I think they're healthy unless you have an irritated GI tract , SIBO or stuff like that. Mostly :
Potatoes, mushrooms, carrots, tomatoes, winter squash, red beets, pumpkin, garlic, onions, sweet potatoes, green beans, green peas and Broccoli. Depending on season. All of them thorougly cooked except: tomatoes, carrots and garlic; depending on the dish I prepare.

 

[Travis]

While it's true that the plant's defensive enzyme myrosinase¹ can be destroyed by cooking, there are analogous enzymes in intestinal bacteria that will do the same thing; namely, hydrolize glycosides. From what I recall from reading studies on this, cooking reduces the goitrogenic potential by about 1/2, and this depends on what bacteria you have!

¹An enzyme (a glycoside hydrolase) in vegetables that cleaves progoitrin (2-hydroxy-3-butenyl glucosinolate) into goitrin, glucose, and sulfate.

progoitrin + myrosinase → goitrin + C₆H₁₂O₆+ SO₄²⁻

Myrosinase also cleaves indole-glucosinolates into thiocyanate, glucose, sulfate, and a substituted indole.

indole(x)-glucosinolate + myrosinase → SCN⁻ + C₆H₁₂O₆ + SO₄² + indole(x)

Glycoside hydrolases are found in essentially all domains of life. In prokaryotes, they are found both as intracellular and extracellular enzymes that are largely involved in nutrient acquisition.

 

[Makrosky]

While it's true that the plant's defensive enzyme myrosinase¹ can be destroyed by cooking, there are analogous enzymes in intestinal bacteria that will do the same thing; namely, hydrolize glycosides. From what I recall from reading studies on this, cooking reduces the goitrogenic potential by about 1/2, and this depends on what bacteria you have!

¹An enzyme (a glycoside hydrolase) in vegetables that cleaves progoitrin (2-hydroxy-3-butenyl glucosinolate) into goitrin, glucose, and sulfate.

progoitrin + myrosinase → goitrin + C₆H₁₂O₆+ SO₄²⁻

Myrosinase also cleaves indole-glucosinolates into thiocyanate, glucose, sulfate, and a substituted indole.

indole(x)-glucosinolate + myrosinase → SCN⁻ + C₆H₁₂O₆ + SO₄² + indole(x)

Thanks for the explanation but... I don't get it. My chemistry knowledge is close to zero. Are you talking about a theoretical chemical reaction that can take place, or actual practical implications ?

 

[raypeatclips]

Good luck; be sure to stick to a consistent dosage (1/4 TSP for example), and use it as a preventative measure, rather than in response to IBS, similar to coffee.

I put the 1/4 TSP in a little dish with water and LOTS of sugar, heat, stir, and drink like a tea.

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. How come you say not to use in case of IBS? That was what I was intending to do, I don't really like being on supplements for extended periods.

Yes. I while back I looked up the goitrogenic effect of some vegetables.

As far as I know, cooking reduces the goitrogenic activity of vegetables. I cook vegetables very well, far longer and hotter than the packets suggest they be cooked for. The only raw vegetable I eat is the carrot.

 

[Travis]

The goitrogens are bound to glucose molecules and are released by enzymes contained the the plants themselves; presumably as a defensive measure. Cooking denatures this enzyme as a function of time and temperature. From an article:

Myrosinase activity of cabbage consumed on the cooked cabbage treatment (0.107) was substantially lower than the raw cabbage treatment (0.496)...¹

But gut bacteria also cleave the goitrogen-glucose bond, so the net effect seems to be about a 60% reduction of bioavailability. This would be reduced further by boiling since some are leached into the water. This graph shows the amount of isothiocyanates absorbed from microwaved cabbage in comparison to raw cabbage and an internal standard (white bars).

You can see that it is reduced by cooking. The authors:

When expressed as a proportion of sinigrin ingested, the excreted proportions were 0.37 for raw cabbage and 0.15 for cooked cabbage...¹

A 60% reduction. The raw cabbage glucosinolate cleavage products are absorbed faster. It takes a few hours, but your colonic bacterial enzymes will indeed cleave potentially goitrogenic products from glucosinolates even after denaturing plant-myrosinase via cooking.

So you wouldn't expect goitrogens to be completely obviated by cooking. I would say ~60% via steaming¹ and ~85% via boiling² (leach factor).

¹Hydrolysis of Glucosinolates to Isothiocyanates after Ingestion of Raw or Microwaved Cabbage by Human Volunteers
²Bioavailability and Kinetics of Sulforaphane in Humans after Consumption of Cooked versus Raw Broccoli

 

[raypeatclips]

@Travis Thank you for those. Are the glucosinolates only present in cruciferous vegetables do you know? All the information I can find is about the cruciferous, of which I eat kale about once a month. Also kale, turnips and collard greens are things Peat occassionally eats. I am not sure it is something to be overly concerned about unless you are eating lots of them every day.

 

[tara]

I am not sure it is something to be overly concerned about unless you are eating lots of them every day.

That's how I see it - I eat a little well-cooked kale, broccoli, cabbage, etc from time to time, but not every day.
I think Peat has said small amounts of the goitrogenic foods don't make very much difference - the problem is when they are a major part of the diet.

 

[Travis]

Are the glucosinolates only present in cruciferous vegetables do you know?

I think so. There is a table in the article Concentrations of thiocyanate and goitrin in human plasma, their precursor concentrations in brassica vegetables, and associated potential risk for hypothyroidism that gives a good breakdown of dozens of variants by the total glucosinolates, goitrin, and indole glucosinolates. The indole glucosinolates can produce the thiocyanate ion.

To view the table, just go to the link and click download .pdf (free). The table is sideways on the screen so you just have to rotate clockwise in Adobe Reader.

Broccoli, turnips, and curly kale (oleracea var acephala) are really low in the goitrogenic glucosinolates; and collards and Russian kale (rapa) seem to be quite high. In a few cultivars at least, it appears that the goitrogenic potential was progressively bred-out.

 

[DaveFoster]

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. How come you say not to use in case of IBS? That was what I was intending to do, I don't really like being on supplements for extended periods.



As far as I know, cooking reduces the goitrogenic activity of vegetables. I cook vegetables very well, far longer and hotter than the packets suggest they be cooked for. The only raw vegetable I eat is the carrot.

I mean if you use it, it will speed transit and lower serotonin ----> slow transit. If you go off of it, you'll get constipated, serotonin will be released once again, and you'll get IBS. Coffee can be used in the same way as cascara (even decaff).

 

[ecstatichamster]

When I started this Peat inspired diet, I lost the interest in vegetables completely almost overnight. Maybe because I stopped eating raw salads. I don't miss vegetables. I did enjoy raw vegetable salads, but the loss is rather easy to bear.

I eat onions and garlic often, but I don't eat things like broccoli that I never really liked.

I get my fiber from fruit, which seems to be really really easy on my digestion and something that I do crave. Unlike vegetables.

 

[amethyst]

That's how I see it - I eat a little well-cooked kale, broccoli, cabbage, etc from time to time, but not every day.
I think Peat has said small amounts of the goitrogenic foods don't make very much difference - the problem is when they are a major part of the diet.

So I guess that rules out juicing vegetables like Kale, cabbage etc. peaty-wise? I love to juice my greens primarily for the antioxidants.

 

[Blossom]

So I guess that rules out juicing vegetables like Kale, cabbage etc. peaty-wise?

You are correct.

 

[Travis]

There is tremendous variation. I would expect that raw Brocolli is less goitrogenic than cooked Collards based on the studies that I've read. There are two separate species of brassica and hundreds of sub-species. They all have widely varying concentrations of goitrogens.

Even people who don't eat crucifers have measurable amounts of thiocyanate in their blood. Iodide seems to be an antidote; it is high-thiocyanate coupled with low iodide that leads to hypothyroidism and goitre.

I learned a bit reading studies. I stopped eating Russian Kale (purple stem) and now only eat the mildly goitrogenic Curly Kale.

 

[Birdie]

I can't handle the carotene or the estrogen or the argentine in winter squash. So, we don't have it often but it's delicious.

Ray recommends young summer squashes. They can be in the fruit category I recall. I use those a lot. Well cooked. Butter and CO sautéed.

Otherwise, we'll use other vegetables, but not count on them as integral to the diet. For variety if they look good in the grocery store. They often don't look good. I count mushrooms as vegs. We have them sautéed and then steamed for an hour.. But I'm cutting back there due to the argentine /lysine ratio thing. I tend to get shingles when I don't pay attention to the ratios. Too bad.

I occasionally cook kale for a broth.
We use onions sparingly for flavor. (Low lysine again. And I seem to remember they're estrogenic..?)

I've read somewhere that cooked broccoli is less goitrogenic, but we don't have it often anyway. Maybe twice a year these days.

 

[Birdie]

I mean if you use it, it will speed transit and lower serotonin ----> slow transit. If you go off of it, you'll get constipated, serotonin will be released once again, and you'll get IBS. Coffee can be used in the same way as cascara (even decaff).

I had to stop the cascara after a few years after it caused gas that awakened me in the night. This didn't happen until a couple of years of use...

Using Pau d'Arco again. I seem to recall it is anti-carcinogenic like cascara. It's not caused any gas pains..

 

[DaveFoster]

I had to stop the cascara after a few years after it caused gas that awakened me in the night. This didn't happen until a couple of years of use...

Using Pau d'Arco again. I seem to recall it is anti-carcinogenic like cascara. It's not caused any gas pains..

Very odd. I know there are concerns of melanosis coli, but haidut said that dosages under 1 TBSP are probably safe, and dosages under 1 TSP should be fine indefinitely.

 

[Xisca]

My experience has been the complete opposite- my BM's increased in frequency and bloating and stomach pain diminished with the elimination of vegetables and other hard to digest fibers.

I do not experience this anymore, but I did....
THIS WAS BECAUSE OF STARCH!
I suppressed starch, and veggies were fine...

The best stools should be big and odorless. And yes, they should leave near-zero residue.

I also noticed that stools were better (no soiling, or those of Buteyko especially!) ONLY with raw veggies.

As oignion and garlic are mentionned, they are the 2 most excluded veggies from the FODMAP diet.
So do not be surprised with gas if you do not stand them....

 

[Xisca]

More bitter vegetables contain a certain level of toxins, but in moderation these kill of bacteria in the stomach. Vigorous cooking can help get rid of the bitter taste.

I would not cook them....
I would cook some grren, but ot bitter greens.
A French meal also starts with a Green salad, with vinegar and some olive oil and salt. You have to let it stand a momento before eating. Remove the coarse fibers.
- The salted vinaigrette soften the cellulose and ...the taste.
- This, acid + bitter, prepare the stomach for producing the adequate juices.
Lack of stomach acid is wrecking havoc on the rest of digestión, so this is primordial.
- greens have a lot of Mg.
- if you eat this with meat, it will mix and digest better the meat, because it mixes with the fiber of the meat. And it will help to chew all this better and finer. just spit once a mouthfull and you will understand the effect!
- Makes meat digested better.
- This sort of salad is also traditionally eaten with eggs and or cheese.
...especially with tartiflette!!!
Tartiflette makes a block, and a salad aerate the stomach content.
- You can also replace vinager by lemon juice.
- This goes better for digesting proteins, and not good for starches.

useful greens are lettuce, chicoria, dendelion, plus some parsley, cilantro...
A leave of tender cabbage is good for stimulating stomach juices.
I cultivate cabbage express for this, because it is tender and not bitter, it just does not taste like cabbage!