Gluten Enzymes Seem To Be Helpful

[ecstatichamster]

I got inspired by a @Travis comment about gluten and started to take AllerDigest when I eat bread.

I like bread and I use mostly white bread, without iron, sometimes home made, with long soak times, and also sometimes good commercial bread without iron.

I don't seem to have problems with it, or with Italian pasta. But the enzymes seem to be helpful.

When I started, I had stomach ache from it, but now it doesn't seem to cause that, and my bowel movements seem cleaner and better quality. I take 1 capsule with meals containing bread or pasta.

 

[Travis]

I was hoping that somebody who ate wheat would give this a shot. There is also some indication that sourdough fermentation will break down immunogenic peptides to smaller nonimmunogenic fragments; but besides excluding all wheat noodles, this is highly strain‐dependent and less reliable. Unfortunately, very few people have a mass spectrometer at home; so the best way to tell if wheat peptides could be having an effect is perhaps by being cognizant of biological responses. There are potential immunogenic effects and the less‐harmful potential opiate effects—which has also been shown to raise prolactin through δ‐opioid receptors. Even oat kicks my **** after a few days because I tend to eat quite a bit of food at one time despite being skinny, perhaps from having a high metabolism from fruit and a very low‐PUFA diet (I stopped eating almonds and eggs entirely).

As long as the peptides are broken down and all iron is removed, wheat seems okay—similar to rice but less minerals than potatoes.

 

[EIRE24]

I was hoping that somebody who ate wheat would give this a shot. There is also some indication that sourdough fermentation will break down immunogenic peptides to smaller nonimmunogenic fragments; but besides excluding all wheat noodles, this is highly strain‐dependent and less reliable. Unfortunately, very few people have a mass spectrometer at home; so the best way to tell if wheat peptides could be having an effect is perhaps by being cognizant of biological responses. There are potential immunogenic effects and the less‐harmful potential opiate effects—which has also been shown to raise prolactin through δ‐opioid receptors. Even oat kicks my **** after a few days because I tend to eat quite a bit of food at one time despite being skinny, perhaps from having a high metabolism from fruit and a very low‐PUFA diet (I stopped eating almonds and eggs entirely).

As long as the peptides are broken down and all iron is removed, wheat seems okay—similar to rice but less minerals than potatoes.

Any reason for no almonds or eggs apart from pufa? I'm guessing if oats were soaked and prepared properly they may not gave the same kick **** response

 

[raypeatclips]

I was hoping that somebody who ate wheat would give this a shot. There is also some indication that sourdough fermentation will break down immunogenic peptides to smaller nonimmunogenic fragments; but besides excluding all wheat noodles, this is highly strain‐dependent and less reliable. Unfortunately, very few people have a mass spectrometer at home; so the best way to tell if wheat peptides could be having an effect is perhaps by being cognizant of biological responses. There are potential immunogenic effects and the less‐harmful potential opiate effects—which has also been shown to raise prolactin through δ‐opioid receptors. Even oat kicks my **** after a few days because I tend to eat quite a bit of food at one time despite being skinny, perhaps from having a high metabolism from fruit and a very low‐PUFA diet (I stopped eating almonds and eggs entirely).

As long as the peptides are broken down and all iron is removed, wheat seems okay—similar to rice but less minerals than potatoes.

What was that about wheat noodles, they don't have the negative effects?

 

[Travis]

What was that about wheat noodles, they don't have the negative effects?

I only had mentioned the noodles because nobody uses sourdough bacteria on them. Noodles appear, as far as I know, to be a wheat product never fermented. The Asians appear to ferment much of their wheat as tamari, and bacterial enzymes certainly can make a difference.

Any reason for no almonds or eggs apart from pufa? I'm guessing if oats were soaked and prepared properly they may not gave the same kick **** response

Well, I think the almond and egg proteins can be slightly immunogenic but I eat coconut instead mostly because of linoleic acid. After reading articles on prostaglandins you can become terrified of lipids; I have friggin' nightmares about lipids (lol, not really). Coconuts take longer to crack open, grate, and eat, but they are good when mixed with other things—and even cheaper than almonds: I can get one coconut for $1.50, which is ~2000‧Cal.

 

[Blossom]

Asians appear to ferment much of their wheat as tamari,

I've never seen tamari that contained wheat. It's usually soy sauce with no wheat included.
ETA: I'm glad you mentioned this because tamari sometimes does contain wheat so it's important to check labels to verify it doesn't!

 

[BigYellowLemon]

I wanted to say thanks to Travis, because he found the key problem in dairy proteins.

If you saw my thread, you'd know I was wondering how the hell I could fix milk: Fixing Milk

Travis went above and beyond and puts my research to shame, with the discovery of the enzyme-resistant proline bond.

Just to add a couple of things:

Casein and gluten also have the additional problem of opening tight junctions in the gut, meaning that even if they were fully digest/they create no enzyme resistant peptides, they could still cause all the problems Travis outline with peptides entering the bloodstream.

Hyperlipid is an amazing blog and I will give credit where credit is due:
Hyperlipid: Casein vs gluten
Hyperlipid: How toxic is wheat?

This means that ANY peptides present could potentially enter the bloodstream, not necessarily only casein/gluten derived peptides. LPS could enter the blood stream easier, anything.

Furthermore, wheat has the additional problem of containing a rather poisonous lectin, wheat germ agglutinin (WGA).

Lectins are proteins which have highly specific binding towards a specific type of sugar, usually sialic acid, glucosamine, or a sugar complex containing mannose.

Some lectins, such as ricin, can kill you. Foods like common beans contain lectins that can kill you unless the bean is cooked properly. And foods like wheat, soy, and others contain lectins that won't kill you but are very harmful.

Most common food lectins (like found in wheat, soy, and common beans) bind to glucosamine (which btw is a very cool molecule).

As can be seen by hyperlipid link, WGA is horrible toxic poison, and proline peptidase won't fix wheat in that regard.

Lectins and Food toxins; concern?

Proline peptidase + n-acetylglucosamine should fix any problem with any grains. Proline peptidase should fix milk completely.

To fix the tight junction opening ability, I think lactic acid fermentation for both wheat/dairy might help chip away enough amino acids to make the protein inactive at the tight junctions. It's conjecture, but we know they at least have an effect on the proteins, they don't break them down to any large extent but they have an effect.

Keeping stomach acid/digestive enzymes high should guarantee most of the protein is broken down fast, and the previously stated supplements should finish the proteins off.

And possibly having some saturated fat should keep tight junctions closed.

 

[EIRE24]

I wanted to say thanks to Travis, because he found the key problem in dairy proteins.

If you saw my thread, you'd know I was wondering how the hell I could fix milk: Fixing Milk

Travis went above and beyond and puts my research to shame, with the discovery of the enzyme-resistant proline bond.

Just to add a couple of things:

Casein and gluten also have the additional problem of opening tight junctions in the gut, meaning that even if they were fully digest/they create no enzyme resistant peptides, they could still cause all the problems Travis outline with peptides entering the bloodstream.

Hyperlipid is an amazing blog and I will give credit where credit is due:
Hyperlipid: Casein vs gluten
Hyperlipid: How toxic is wheat?

This means that ANY peptides present could potentially enter the bloodstream, not necessarily only casein/gluten derived peptides. LPS could enter the blood stream easier, anything.

Furthermore, wheat has the additional problem of containing a rather poisonous lectin, wheat germ agglutinin (WGA).

Lectins are proteins which have highly specific binding towards a specific type of sugar, usually sialic acid, glucosamine, or a sugar complex containing mannose.

Some lectins, such as ricin, can kill you. Foods like common beans contain lectins that can kill you unless the bean is cooked properly. And foods like wheat, soy, and others contain lectins that won't kill you but are very harmful.

Most common food lectins (like found in wheat, soy, and common beans) bind to glucosamine (which btw is a very cool molecule).

As can be seen by hyperlipid link, WGA is horrible toxic poison, and proline peptidase won't fix wheat in that regard.

Lectins and Food toxins; concern?

Proline peptidase + n-acetylglucosamine should fix any problem with any grains. Proline peptidase should fix milk completely.

To fix the tight junction opening ability, I think lactic acid fermentation for both wheat/dairy might help chip away enough amino acids to make the protein inactive at the tight junctions. It's conjecture, but we know they at least have an effect on the proteins, they don't break them down to any large extent but they have an effect.

Keeping stomach acid/digestive enzymes high should guarantee most of the protein is broken down fast, and the previously stated supplements should finish the proteins off.

And possibly having some saturated fat should keep tight junctions closed.

Brilliant comment and well done to both you and Travis. This should help myself along with others.

Do you recommend any specific digestive enzyme?

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Brilliant comment and well done to both you and Travis. This should help myself along with others.

Do you recommend any specific digestive enzyme?

Thanks. I would recommend a standard amylase/trypsin/pepsin mix + prolyly endopeptidase + n-acetylglucosamine. I might be selling a mix soon.

Bromelain and papain seem somewhat dangerous to me, considering they enter the body, unlike trypsin/pepsin.

 

[Nighteyes]

I wanted to say thanks to Travis, because he found the key problem in dairy proteins.

If you saw my thread, you'd know I was wondering how the hell I could fix milk: Fixing Milk

Travis went above and beyond and puts my research to shame, with the discovery of the enzyme-resistant proline bond.

Just to add a couple of things:

Casein and gluten also have the additional problem of opening tight junctions in the gut, meaning that even if they were fully digest/they create no enzyme resistant peptides, they could still cause all the problems Travis outline with peptides entering the bloodstream.

Hyperlipid is an amazing blog and I will give credit where credit is due:
Hyperlipid: Casein vs gluten
Hyperlipid: How toxic is wheat?

This means that ANY peptides present could potentially enter the bloodstream, not necessarily only casein/gluten derived peptides. LPS could enter the blood stream easier, anything.

Furthermore, wheat has the additional problem of containing a rather poisonous lectin, wheat germ agglutinin (WGA).

Lectins are proteins which have highly specific binding towards a specific type of sugar, usually sialic acid, glucosamine, or a sugar complex containing mannose.

Some lectins, such as ricin, can kill you. Foods like common beans contain lectins that can kill you unless the bean is cooked properly. And foods like wheat, soy, and others contain lectins that won't kill you but are very harmful.

Most common food lectins (like found in wheat, soy, and common beans) bind to glucosamine (which btw is a very cool molecule).

As can be seen by hyperlipid link, WGA is horrible toxic poison, and proline peptidase won't fix wheat in that regard.

Lectins and Food toxins; concern?

Proline peptidase + n-acetylglucosamine should fix any problem with any grains. Proline peptidase should fix milk completely.

To fix the tight junction opening ability, I think lactic acid fermentation for both wheat/dairy might help chip away enough amino acids to make the protein inactive at the tight junctions. It's conjecture, but we know they at least have an effect on the proteins, they don't break them down to any large extent but they have an effect.

Keeping stomach acid/digestive enzymes high should guarantee most of the protein is broken down fast, and the previously stated supplements should finish the proteins off.

And possibly having some saturated fat should keep tight junctions closed.

Glucosamine and specifically sulfated glucosaminoglycans is an interesting topic in relation to gut damage - be it from gluten or otherwise. There was a post by gbolduev on hackstasis about this in relation to autism. Apparently undersulfated GAG's in the gut lining lead to permeable gut and poor nutrient absorption.

http://newtreatments.org/fromweb/sulfur.html

The source above underlines the importance of not only glucosamine but also sulfur in healing the gut. The site specifically advices to use glucosamine sulfate and not n-acetylglucosamine unless to be used for arthritis etc. Still there are quite a few other studies done on N-acetylglucosamine for it ability to ramp up GAG production.

A pilot study of N-acetyl glucosamine, a nutritional substrate for glycosaminoglycan synthesis, in paediatric chronic inflammatory bowel disease. - PubMed - NCBI
The effect of N-acetylglucosamine as a substrate for in vitro synthesis of glycosaminoglycans by human peritoneal mesothelial cells and fibroblasts. - PubMed - NCBI

Maybe adequate sulfur intake is important for any supplemental glucosamine to do its job when grains are a part of one's diet.

 

[EIRE24]

Thanks. I would recommend a standard amylase/trypsin/pepsin mix + prolyly endopeptidase + n-acetylglucosamine. I might be selling a mix soon.

Bromelain and papain seem somewhat dangerous to me, considering they enter the body, unlike trypsin/pepsin.

I would appreciate if you contacted me when you begin to sell the supplement. Thank you.

 

[Waynish]

Any potential benefits when taking this for Celiac's who don't eat wheat?

 

[Tide]

@BigYellowLemon


Thank you for doing that research, it’s very helpful. My goal is to be able to eat out a little more comfortably as I have a pretty serious sensitivity to gluten.

I was curious if you had preferred supplements to provide those 3 different enzymes that you mentioned. I’ve been looking and found some different sources, though some have additives that aren’t optimal.

Anyone else who uses enzymes to eat out more comfortably, feel free to add your experience.

 

[Tide]

I wanted to bump this thread to see if anyone had suggest supplements for covering the 3 enzymes that @BigYellowLemon mentioned.

Anyone else’s input on how they deal with gluten/wheat cross contamination is welcome too.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’m no longer using enzymes. I think they come from fungal sources and I’m not happy with that in general. Short term yes. Long term no.

 

[SOMO]

There's another Gluten-degrading Protease that should be included in a "anti-gluten supplement" and that's Prolyl-Endopeptidase (PEP.)

I've used a Digestive Enzyme with DPPIV, like the one in the opening post since, from what I understand, it is the Proline/Prolamin residues on Gliadin and Gluten that make it difficult to digest.

DPPIV does something similar as Prolyl-Endopeptidase/PEP, I think they just cleave Proline at different positions.

The reason sourdough is easier to digest is because most of these enzymes like DPPIV and PEP are harvested from bacteria and yeast which produce them.

 

[johnwester130]

There's another Gluten-degrading Protease that should be included in a "anti-gluten supplement" and that's Prolyl-Endopeptidase (PEP.)

I've used a Digestive Enzyme with DPPIV, like the one in the opening post since, from what I understand, it is the Proline/Prolamin residues on Gliadin and Gluten that make it difficult to digest.

DPPIV does something similar as Prolyl-Endopeptidase/PEP, I think they just cleave Proline at different positions.

The reason sourdough is easier to digest is because most of these enzymes like DPPIV and PEP are harvested from bacteria and yeast which produce them.

thanks for this