The Confounding Factors Of The Low A Diet

[tankasnowgod]

How many and for how long? So far it's working for a few people on forums, most of whom have a history of food intolerance, orthorexia, crazy supplementation or restrictive eating. It is a high carb, high protein diet based on meat. Lean muscle meat is easy to digest and non-allergenic for most people, no revelations here. if you eat like Grant you get:

• over 100g of high quality protein along with minerals and good amount of B vitamins
• no problematic protein sources like milk, eggs or grains
• low sugars meaning fewer problems with malabsorption/fermentation, overburdened liver, uric acid and so on
  
• rice as a relatively clean source of carbs, almost like pure glucose without antinutrients found commonly in plants

Everything is covered except for calcium and ADEK. These are either stored or can be made in your body so you can live without eating them for a while on an extremely restricted and boring diet.

I don't think it has much to do with Vit A. Many people could probably replace beef with seafood or pork, if they can digest the fats, and still be good. Possibly organ meats as well, some could even add pickled veggies for taste. And that would be much like some traditional asian diets. Rice, meats, no dairy, low sucrose. People who struggle with milk or simple sugars and suffered on Ray Peat inspired diets will think it's the best thing ever. That is also why low carb diets work for some people, especially those who handle long chain fats well. They restrict sugars, wheat or fiber, or whatever it is that interferes with proper digestion and utilization of protein, and have great results.

As to this point, one of the ways this diet may work is as an intervention diet, similiar to the ketogenic diet for epilepsy, or Kempner's rice diet. Some of the studies Grant posted showed people getting vision issues after 1-2 years, and them resolving in a couple weeks after adding A back to the diet. I believe some with epilepsy saw their symptoms disappear with depletion, and after adding A back, the symptoms themselves did not return.

Grant has been doing this diet for a bit over 4 years. While he doesn't have any financial incentive, he may wish for his work to be highly regarded, so his self reporting should be viewed with some skepticism. Most others, less than a year, probably around 3-6 months or so.

 

[postman]

Grant has been doing this diet for a bit over 4 years. While he doesn't have any financial incentive, he may wish for his work to be highly regarded, so his self reporting should be viewed with some skepticism. Most others, less than a year, probably around 3-6 months or so.

He used to eat red kidney beans for a while, not knowing they are full of carotenoids. So I don't think it's correct to say that he hasn't eaten any VA all these years. Doesn't seem to have made much of an impact though, his recent VA bloodtest was as low as it can possibly be without being 0.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

My guess about why this diet works well for some:

Transition to a lower fat diet.
Lower saturated fat = lower postprandial inflammation. Lower fat intake = lower blood coagulation = better blood oxygenation and circulation, nutrients can reach more cells. Not avoiding Iron = increased dopamine, blood oxygenation, thyroid etc. Moderate Iron intake is great for health, it just needs to be balanced with other nutrients and kept in check by keeping inflammation low and by keeping postprandial endotoxin low, this allows the Iron to get where the body needs it instead of becoming a free radical source or food for translocated bacteria. Personally I think heme iron sources are more dangerous here as the gut cannot regulate its absorption like non-heme, non-heme (vegetarian) iron has the benefit of the gut lowering the uptake if the body is in an inflammed state or already has enough iron. We don’t want Iron as long as we are inflammed. Higher starch and lower fat = better gut health. Typical U.S.A. diets shift the biome towards more lps producing bacteria, and saturated fat is the liberator of this bacteria, allowing lps (and likely the bacteria itself) to enter the lymph and blood. Iron feeds bacteria. An easy to digest meal with carbs and an iron source and low fat would likely feed good bacteria in the gut.

I think it is likely that dietary fat allows bacteria to translocate from the gut. My guess is that Saturated fat is worse in this regard because we see it allowing LPS in to the blood, so why wouldn’t dormant bacteria easily pass through undetected?? Dormant bacteria is a real thing and takes sophisticated efforts to detect.

Host‐cell lipid rafts: a safe door for micro‐organisms?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1042/BC20090138


Membrane rafts: a potential gateway for bacterial entry into host cells
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1348-0421.2009.00198.x

 

[somuch4food]

Correct me if I'm wrong bu he recommends foods that have no vitamin A, not beans specifically. I don't know if his followers eat them daily. I wouldn't. But you're right, he eats them, probably because he likes them and they work for him. Or mabye they don't, maybe that's why he still hasn't healed completely and has all those food sensitivities?

He does not make recommend any food specifically. Some guidelines he gives are only very low A foods, a tbsp of olive oil a day, salt to taste and quality proteins, ideally from beef. He mentions he added beans to his diet because they help keep things moving for him and are a source of calcium.

You don't even know what foods he recommends and yet here you are laying judgements about his diet.

Why did you feel offended by the post above? It was technically correct. Grant does not specifically advise to eat beans, but find them useful. The last sentence is also a good call, but I'm thinking Grant might not be that sensitive anymore, he's just determined to prove his case that you can be healthy without much vitamin A.

 

[David PS]

I am interested in lowering my vitamin A status. Limiting my consumption of high vitamin A foods seems to be a the logical place to start. I am looking for other things besides just diet.

Phosphatidylcholine and high doses of vitamin E might be helpful
Hypervitaminosis A - Wikipedia

High fiber foods and milk thistle might be helpful
How to Detox from an Overdose of Vitamin A

The Adverse Effects of Alcohol on Vitamin A Metabolism

 

[Dolomite]

@Captain_Coconut I agree that the low a diet has reduced my sfa intake. I never added any fats but I was eating some low fat cheese sticks, whole milk, ice cream and butter. I was using a 1/2t of butter but now I will try using olive oil. I like your idea of using nuts for oil with their built in vitamin E.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Hey look: it works that way in Mice, SFA is responsible for bacterial translocation. It is just a matter of time where we see the studies on humans showing the same, various other markers in studies already point to this.

Effects of Dietary Fat Profile on Gut Permeability
and Microbiota and Their Relationships
with Metabolic Changes in Mice

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/oby.21122

“Effect of dietary fat profile on gut permeability and bacterial translocation
Transepithelial resistance of the colon of HFD-sat mice was 26% lower than that of CTRL (P < 0.05). The HFD-n6 and CTRL groups did not differ, whereas HFD-n3 tended to increase transepithelial resistance (64.3 6 2.8 Ohm cm22 vs. 52.7 6 1.5 Ohm cm22 for CTRL; P 5 0.11; Figure 3A). Bacterial DNA content in the mesen- teric fat [as a surrogate marker of bacterial translocation (13)] of HFD-sat mice trended higher (2-fold; P 5 0.12), whereas HFD-n6 and HFD-n3 groups did not differ, from CTRL (Figure 3B). Repre- sentative DGGE of the bacterial content in the mesenteric fat of HFD-sat mice revealed a banding pattern distinct from that of CTRL or fecal microbiota from HFD-sat mice (Figure 3C). The closest relatives for most DGGE bands found in HFD-sat mesenteric
fat samples were typical commensals including Akkermansia and members of Lachnospiraceae.”

 

[postman]

He does not make recommend any food specifically. Some guidelines he gives are only very low A foods, a tbsp of olive oil a day, salt to taste and quality proteins, ideally from beef. He mentions he added beans to his diet because they help keep things moving for him and are a source of calcium.



Why did you feel offended by the post above? It was technically correct. Grant does not specifically advise to eat beans, but find them useful. The last sentence is also a good call, but I'm thinking Grant might not be that sensitive anymore, he's just determined to prove his case that you can be healthy without much vitamin A.

He does recommend foods in his books, I don't know if you've read them in full. And yes the amount of stupid unfounded arguments in these threads is provocative, most of could be laid to rest if people did 5 minutes of research about what they are saying before they post it. Most of the "it's not vitamin a" posts are laughable, there are a few of them that are interesting and have merit but seeing the same nonsense being repeated gets tiresome. "It's vitamin D to vitamin A ratio! It's because you cut out milk! Only carotenoids can cause problems! Only retinol can cause problems! It's because of less fibre! It's because of more fibre! It's only because less PUFAs! It's only because more PUFAs! These ideas might have been worth something at first but they keep getting repeated over and over again despite being disproven, it doesn't add anything to talk about vitamin D-A ratio for the hundreth time.

 

[postman]

I am interested in lowering my vitamin A status. Limiting my consumption of high vitamin A foods seems to be a the logical place to start. I am looking for other things besides just diet.

Phosphatidylcholine and high doses of vitamin E might be helpful
Hypervitaminosis A - Wikipedia

High fiber foods and milk thistle might be helpful
How to Detox from an Overdose of Vitamin A

The Adverse Effects of Alcohol on Vitamin A Metabolism

Very interesting.

 

[David PS]

Very interesting.

Great. Here is another abstract that might be helpful for addressing the damage caused by too much vitamin A.
Protective effect of taurine, zinc and tocopherol on retinol-induced damage in human lymphoblastoid cells. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[somuch4food]

He does recommend foods in his books, I don't know if you've read them in full. And yes the amount of stupid unfounded arguments in these threads is provocative, most of could be laid to rest if people did 5 minutes of research about what they are saying before they post it. Most of the "it's not vitamin a" posts are laughable, there are a few of them that are interesting and have merit but seeing the same nonsense being repeated gets tiresome. "It's vitamin D to vitamin A ratio! It's because you cut out milk! Only carotenoids can cause problems! Only retinol can cause problems! It's because of less fibre! It's because of more fibre! It's only because less PUFAs! It's only because more PUFAs! These ideas might have been worth something at first but they keep getting repeated over and over again despite being disproven, it doesn't add anything to talk about vitamin D-A ratio for the hundreth time.

I have read them, but Poisoining for Profits, I'm not sure I finished it. I was not in the mood for conspiracy theories. It's been a few months, so I might not remember everything.

I agree that the post was too generic to add real value to the thread. I welcome different views though. For some, the benefits of the low A diet might not completely revolve around its low A component while others really do have a problem with it. It's important to discuss the other factors that can contribute to this as a whole.

@Captain_Coconut is a good example. He brings a different point of view about how fat intake can be a huge factor. It's probably one of the reason I failed the second time around. I think my oil consumption went up while my nuts/seeds went down. That might explain why I was not tolerating what I was in November. Not enough vitamin E.

I would also like to discuss the detox symptoms that are experienced on the diet and find ways to prevent or ease the symptoms. There are a number of cases on Grant's forum that seem to feel bad most of the time, but still see some improvements so they continue.

 

[tankasnowgod]

This could very well be true. The problem is, what foods contain pure retinol, with no carotenoids attached? Egg yolks have lutein. Butter has beta-carotene. Even liver has beta-carotene. (Source.)

So it seems that a low/no carotenoid diet will necessarily also be a low/no retinol diet.

Yeah, there are caroteniods in foods that contain retinol, but not at the level that you would find in vegetables. There are also variations in the amount. You can purchase butter that is less yellow, and cheese's that are white.

Speaking of cheese, the orange colors are due to added carotenoids. Switching from orange cheese to white could have a huge difference in carotenoids, but a similar amount of retinol- There's no such thing as naturally orange cheese

 

[kyle]

One of his first examples in his ebook was rats on farms living off of grain over the winter.

He said dumb scientists just need to ask farmers if vit A is necessary, because rats will go all through winter on just grain from the barn.

This is obvious anti-establishment pandering but whatever.

Firstly, "grain" feed includes the entire stalk of the grain. Its not milled kernals. So he doesnt know anything about what hes talking about...

Secondly, rats will eat anything in those conditons, including other rats and ***t.

And good farmers will also supplement, say corn feed, with higher quality hay. Yes do ask a REAL farmer if vit A is necessary.

 

[Ronald1919]

Is that what you picked up from his book? Do you really think animals start disintegrating without Vitamin A like in the expirements Grant analyzed?

'good farmers' also use glycophate
Is that good too or am I being too anti establishment for you??

This thread is pointless tbh. Like I said its being used to attack the theory with no response from the other side. There needs to be an even discussion. Should be kept all in the main thread.

 

[somuch4food]

This thread is pointless tbh. Like I said its being used to attack the theory with no response from the other side. There needs to be an even discussion. Should be kept all in the main thread.

That's the vibe I'm getting. I wanted to discuss this diet from a wider point of view, but it keeps getting infested by the same old debate from the main thread.

This thread is not supposed to be about Grant's theory. It's about a diet that is working for many members. I want to discuss factors that make this work including a decreased intake of vitamin A and carotenoids. It's not about proving or disproving the guy behind it.

 

[Cirion]

SO I actually just decided to basically become a vegan lol. This means no more dairy and virtually no dietary fat, and no meat either. It's not for moral reasons so I may cheat and still have meat on occasion, but most days not. A lot of this diet has similarities to Grant's diet. I wonder if a lot of benefits could also be an overall lowering of proteins and fats then? Although many Grant followers still have beef though they tend to eat low fat for sure.

 

[mipp]

You don't even know what foods he recommends and yet here you are laying judgements about his diet.

I read both books about a year ago and the message I got was "eat a diet as low in A as possible for a few months", not that I should eat beans. I've just searched the text of PfP and beans are mentioned twice: the list of foods that Grant eats and the gerbil diet. He also says to research for yourself. Which is good advice considering he himself was eating red beans instead of foods that actually don't have carotenoids in it, like mushrooms. Following his recommendation may not always be best if you want to deplete vitamin A quickly.

As to this point, one of the ways this diet may work is as an intervention diet, similiar to the ketogenic diet for epilepsy, or Kempner's rice diet. .

Yeah, Kempner's diet is the first thing that comes to mind. I'm sure many people would see improvement if they tried it. More reasonable elimination diets can work very well even long term. I followed a low carb high fat 'cult' for years. Some fellow cultists improved so rapidly and profoundly that they became low carb extremists preaching carbs was the devil and saturated fat would save mankind period, any further debate is unnecessary. Similar to what's currently happening here with vit A.

He does recommend foods in his books, I don't know if you've read them in full. And yes the amount of stupid unfounded arguments in these threads is provocative, most of could be laid to rest if people did 5 minutes of research about what they are saying before they post it. Most of the "it's not vitamin a" posts are laughable, there are a few of them that are interesting and have merit but seeing the same nonsense being repeated gets tiresome. "It's vitamin D to vitamin A ratio! It's because you cut out milk! Only carotenoids can cause problems! Only retinol can cause problems! It's because of less fibre! It's because of more fibre! It's only because less PUFAs! It's only because more PUFAs! These ideas might have been worth something at first but they keep getting repeated over and over again despite being disproven, it doesn't add anything to talk about vitamin D-A ratio for the hundreth time.

Maybe I misunderstood the title and purpose of this thread. If so, I apologize. I thought we could discuss Grant's diet without the 'poison A' fanaticism here. We know that a diet of rice and beef can be an effective hack because some people report it works wonders for them. There are other reasons why it could work besides a theory that virtually all traditional foods are inherently poisoned. However I'm not sure what new variables OP is expecting to discover. Whatever it is, good luck.

 

[kyle]

'good farmers' also use glycophate

Do they?

There is nothing wrong with questioning, but when your examples are unconnected to reality...

"Hey dummy scientists, just ask these farmers if animals need vitamin A."

Every farmer ever: uh, yes.

Really, whys it matter if

[attack the theory with no response from the other side.

Is defending this guys completely fabricated knowledge of a farm the hill you wanna take your stand on?

Or have you conceded his writing is full of hooey?

Why was i dismissively told to read his book multiple times without anyone willing to discuss my questions?

So i object to the book and now im the one being unfair.

Talk about a catch22.

I want to discuss factors that make this work including a decreased intake of vitamin A and carotenoids. It's not about proving or disproving the guy behind it.

Very high minded of you.

I think people already gave dozens of good confounding variables. Not sure what else youre looking for.

Why not make a thread then that is discussing only vitamin A not connected to that thread. Its too fraught with dogma at this pt.

 

[somuch4food]

Maybe I misunderstood the title and purpose of this thread. If so, I apologize. I thought we could discuss Grant's diet without the 'poison A' fanaticism here. We know that a diet of rice and beef can be an effective hack because some people report it works wonders for them. There are other reasons why it could work besides a theory that virtually all traditional foods are inherently poisoned. However I'm not sure what new variables OP is expecting to discover. Whatever it is, good luck.

That's what I am hoping for. I implemented a low A diet and got success, then I slipped up during the holidays. I proceeded to implement another similar low A diet, but did not get results. I want to understand the key factors that make this diet work or fail.

Very high minded of you.

I think people already gave dozens of good confounding variables. Not sure what else youre looking for.

Why not make a thread then that is discussing only vitamin A not connected to that thread. Its too fraught with dogma at this pt.

I'm thinking of a thread dedicated to carotenoids in general. It would probably be less prone to fanaticism.

Many gave useful answers. I will be tweaking around those to see if something clicks and brings me back on track. I added maple syrup back after I read on the main thread @sunraiser mentioning a theory of light eyed people being more sensitive to blue light and needing more B2. I had run out of it during the holidays. That helped with mental focus, but not energy.

I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just want to be able to discuss the actual diet and its implementation and possible variance without the debate about the validity of the theory. It could be helping some because it's lower fat, while others are benefiting from it because it's low in carotenoids. It's not necessarily A that needs to be completely restricted for everyone.

 

[Lynne]

I wonder if a lot of benefits could also be an overall lowering of proteins and fats then? Although many Grant followers still have beef though they tend to eat low fat for sure.

I've been trying do do more fat off and on since going 'paleo' early in 2013. I've done it in the context of: paleo, more peaty, keto, vegan, carnvore, etc, etc, and I always have issues from it which resolve when I drop the fat back to a low-low/mod level. I know some of the problems are due to some impaiment I have with digesting fat but I wonder the others are excess fat enabling absorption of too much (for me) fat-soluble vitamins, and also maybe lipid rafting of LPS etc. I also feel better eating less meat.