The Confounding Factors Of The Low A Diet

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somuch4food

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Maybe we need to start a thread called "only for people experimenting with a low VA diet " ...

It's not too late for this thread. I've mentioned it a few times in earlier posts. Newcomers to this thread will probably get the message.

I am interested in scientific research and personal experiences that can help us understand why there can that so much healing on this diet. No need to validate or invalidate the theory. I am doing it the other way around. Why is this diet working for so many people?
 
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somuch4food

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I'll second that. Dairy, tomatoes, rice krispies (fortified with VA if in the US), spices -- still sounds pretty high in both retinol and carotenoids.

Obviously, you saw improvements initially, and that counts for something. Do you think it's possible your initial improvements were because your VA intake was lower than whatever it had been previously?

My observation is that people seem to become less tolerant of VA-containing foods as time goes by on this diet. If there's anything to this "detox" idea, maybe the initial lowering allowed VA stores to dump, thereby making you more sensitive to additional dietary VA during "Round 2"? Franko reported this in the original thread: needing to get more restrictive of VA intake as time went on. @Blossom 's blood test could also confirm this idea: She still has high serum retinol, despite eating low/no VA for several months. She also reports being able to tolerate small amounts of butter now, whereas she could not during her first 6 months -- leaving one hopeful that restriction isn't necessary forever.

Thank you for your reply. That's what I want this thread to be constructive and about helping understanding how the diet works. I'm in Canada. Grains and cereals are not fortified with vitamin A.

You make a good point about people becoming less tolerant. The thing is that going so low is not practical for me and creates additional stress when dealing with social events. I have accepted that I can't go as low as many will and that I will have days where vitamin A gets too high. I will use those experiences to analyze how I can get back on the right track faster, or to find ways to be more tolerant on special occasions.

Some thoughts:
  • Maybe not enough fat? Cutting out dairy, sunflower seeds and almonds would remove a lot of fat.
  • Removing nuts and seeds would also remove a bunch of vitamin E.
  • How much of that additional wheat was enriched? I personally feel like crap eating enriched wheat products. I seem to be fine with unenriched though.
Re: snacks (if you're in the US)
  • Kettle Brand chips are cooked in high-oleic oils.
  • Back to Nature makes a bunch of cookie varieties with unenriched flour.
  • A few brands of pretzels use unenriched flour.

I don't think it could be not enough. I increased my olive oil consumption. I am actually suspicious of the olive oil I'm currently using. I changed brands in between the 2 attempts, this one might have too many carotenoids.
The wheat could be problematic. No A in it since I'm in Canada, but the fortification could still be messing me up. It could also be that I was eating more white sliced bread instead of freshly baked bread or pancakes.
The vitamin E is also another good point. I need to make those more appetizing since I've lost my interest for them atm.

Good to know about the Kettle Brand we have them in Canada too. I haven't taken the time to look for unenriched products.

I've started switching more of my flour to ground oats since I avoid fortification and gluten this way. I am unsure whether gluten really affects me, but it is proven to create many problems.
 

tankasnowgod

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It's not too late for this thread. I've mentioned it a few times in earlier posts. Newcomers to this thread will probably get the message.

I am interested in scientific research and personal experiences that can help us understand why there can that so much healing on this diet. No need to validate or invalidate the theory. I am doing it the other way around. Why is this diet working for so many people?

I'm personally of the belief, at this point, that it doesn't have much (if anything) to do with cutting out real Vitamin A, and (almost) everything to do with cutting out the caroteniods. The caroteniods don't convert efficiently to retinol, and their cleavage products do block the actions of Vitamin A. This is also in line with what Peat says, explains why Grant had such a negative reaction to a carrot (which contains zero Vitamin A, but lots of Beta Carotene), and why Blossom is doing so well, with high serum retinol levels.
 
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somuch4food

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I'm personally of the belief, at this point, that it doesn't have much (if anything) to do with cutting out real Vitamin A, and (almost) everything to do with cutting out the caroteniods. The caroteniods don't convert efficiently to retinol, and their cleavage products do block the actions of Vitamin A. This is also in line with what Peat says, explains why Grant had such a negative reaction to a carrot (which contains zero Vitamin A, but lots of Beta Carotene), and why Blossom is doing so well, with high serum retinol levels.

I would be curious to see Grant try liver. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't since he was on the brink of death though.

What's your opinion on the synthetic used in fortification? If supplements are problematic too, liver is the safest food that could be used since other food sources of A all have other negative factors: carotenoids, casein, bad fat profile...
 

tankasnowgod

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I would be curious to see Grant try liver. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't since he was on the brink of death though.

What's your opinion on the synthetic used in fortification? If supplements are problematic too, liver is the safest food that could be used since other food sources of A all have other negative factors: carotenoids, casein, bad fat profile...

I do think the synthetic A might be a problem, but am less convinced now. I just started using fortified milk again, and am feeling really good, better than when I was avoiding it. Also, I think back to Linus Pauling and Abram Hoffer, both those men are on record of taking (what is now considered) large amounts of retinol, 25,000-30,000 IU a day, and both lived into their early 90s, with pretty good physical and mental health.

Dairy and eggs, two of the most significant sources, are problematic for a lot of people for a host of other reasons, as you point out. I agree that liver is the safest food (and overall source) for Vitamin A.
 

Ronald1919

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Linus pauling died of prostate cancer. I can name many people who lived longer without dealing with that. He also consumed large amount of vitamin C and E both of which could mitigate effects of A.

Why are pregnant women advised not to eat liver if it was so safe?
 

tankasnowgod

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Linus pauling died of prostate cancer. I can name many people who lived longer without dealing with that. He also consumed large amount of vitamin C and E both of which could mitigate effects of A.

Why are pregnant women advised not to eat liver if it was so safe?

He died at 93. The average lifespan for a man is 76. I can name many, many, many, many, MANY more people that died at a far younger age that dealt with a lot more.

As to your point about liver and pregnant women, well, almost everyone on this forum can agree there is a lot of health advice out there that is either unfounded, or downright dangerous. The warnings to limit Vitamin A during pregnancy all stem from birth defects caused by Accutane, not A (or even Beta Carotene) in foods, or supplements.
 

schultz

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Why are pregnant women advised not to eat liver if it was so safe?

We turning this into a clone of the other thread? I thought this thread was supposed to avoid the debate and merely offer reasons as to why it's working for people?

@somuch4food can you clarify for people the intention of your thread? I didn't intend to post at all on the thread because I am not experimenting with this diet, but I have been reading the replies out of interest.
 

Ronald1919

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Seems like this thread is an outlet to make unchallenged claims dismissing Grant theory without any debate.

Paul Linus also took megadose vitamin C. He still died of prostate cancer. How do you know if A didn't do any damage. Maybe he was one of those people that would live until 100 without A. Average age takes into consideration newborn/children death. Wars can skew data too depending to time period. My grandparents were over 95 and didn't suffer from cancer or any major diseases.
 

Ronald1919

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Somuch4food,
You can follow a complex set of dietary advice as given by ray peat
But you cant follow a simple "bland food" diet. There are a lot of options to replace dairy like almond milks ect. I still feel like you haven't given it a fair shot. Took me about 8 continuous strict weeks to see results before that it was ups and downs.
 
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somuch4food

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We turning this into a clone of the other thread? I thought this thread was supposed to avoid the debate and merely offer reasons as to why it's working for people?

@somuch4food can you clarify for people the intention of your thread? I didn't intend to post at all on the thread because I am not experimenting with this diet, but I have been reading the replies out of interest.

You got it right. I do not want to debate the validity of the theory. I agree the Grant makes a good case against retinoic acid, but it doesn't mean that the only solution is to completety avoid it. There has to be reasons for such discrepancy in tolerance which can be explained by genetics, missing cofactors, overall toxicity from abuse of supplements/foods...

If you find any scientific studies related to possible explanations, I'd love for you to post them. I want to understand the mechanisms behind this diet.

If I can't get this under control, I might as well ask for this thread to be closed. It needs to be constructive and practical. It should help people try this diet and understand the possible variations. I have attempted liver once and did not get a reaction. So, many might be more like me and need to focus more on removing carotenoids than avoid all forms of A.

Forum members please be open to the idea that Grant's theory might be incomplete and could be refined with useful contributions from your personal experiences and research. I repeat myself again I agree with Grant on the premise that retinoic acid can wreck havoc in the body, I'm simply refuting that it needs to be completety avoided by everyone and that there are factors which protect against its damages.
 
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somuch4food

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Somuch4food,
You can follow a complex set of dietary advice as given by ray peat
But you cant follow a simple "bland food" diet. There are a lot of options to replace dairy like almond milks ect. I still feel like you haven't given it a fair shot. Took me about 8 continuous strict weeks to see results before that it was ups and downs.

Who said I ever followed the complex set of dietary advice of Ray Peat? I found it as hard to implement Peat's diet. I did tweak my diet around his ideas, but couldn't follow all the rules mentioned on the forum. I'm on this forum because I like many discussions that happen here about alternative health and I get new points of view. I could follow a bland diet, but when faced with family members requesting variety or not agreeing with the theory, or social gathering with almost everything containing A. I find it a lot harder. I want to enjoy food with the people I love, not follow a diet because I read a promising theory on the Internet.

So I'm exploring various factors which I can tweak around to get as close as possible to the results you guys get on a very low diet.
 

TeaRex14

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Forum members please be open to the idea that Grant's theory might be incomplete and could be refined with useful contributions from your personal experiences and research.
Grant's theory isn't incomplete, it's incorrect. You've got to realize there's an astronomical difference between toxicity and poison. Toxicity is too much of a good thing can become bad. This isn't the argument that Grant and his supporters are arguing. They consider vitamin A a poison, and any amount, regardless of the individual and their unique current status, is wrong for consuming it. The science is heavily skewed against this claim, not to mention Grant's lack of intelligence in the scientific field makes this a open and shut case.
 

SB4

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@TeaRex14 Not sure if his supporters are misrepresenting his views or he has since changed his mind but I have started reading his first book and in it so far he has said at least twice that he thinks some A is necessary.
 

Cirion

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Grant's theory isn't incomplete, it's incorrect. You've got to realize there's an astronomical difference between toxicity and poison. Toxicity is too much of a good thing can become bad. This isn't the argument that Grant and his supporters are arguing. They consider vitamin A a poison, and any amount, regardless of the individual and their unique current status, is wrong for consuming it. The science is heavily skewed against this claim, not to mention Grant's lack of intelligence in the scientific field makes this a open and shut case.

Personally, I think it's a case of survivor/confirmation bias - in that, because they've experienced profound benefits limiting vitamin A, it must then be applicable to everyone, everywhere, without exception. It's easy to get caught up in a confirmation bias. We can get excited that we're healing and sometimes get overzealous about it. I have been guilty of doing things like this too.
 

TeaRex14

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@TeaRex14 Not sure if his supporters are misrepresenting his views or he has since changed his mind but I have started reading his first book and in it so far he has said at least twice that he thinks some A is necessary.
Possibly, but after having some conversations with a few people in the poison A thread I'm kind of turned off to the idea of even approaching his views with an open mind. I've heard all I needed to hear. At this juncture, it has less to do with Grant's views and more to do with how his supporter base is perceiving his views. I mean, I hate drama and don't want to call anyone out personally, but one guy I was talking to on that thread was so misguided that he's approaching tinfoil fat territory. I also did make a stop by Grant's website, only to find he's a engineer. Not a medical doctor, not a dietitian, not a physiologist, not a biochemist, or anything of that nature. Engineers are pretty damn smart in their own fields, but it's kind of like asking Albert Einstein's "expertise" in politics, lol.
 

TeaRex14

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Personally, I think it's a case of survivor/confirmation bias - in that, because they've experienced profound benefits limiting vitamin A, it must then be applicable to everyone, everywhere, without exception. It's easy to get caught up in a confirmation bias. We can get excited that we're healing and sometimes get overzealous about it. I have been guilty of doing things like this too.
That is probably a large extent of the issue as well.
 

Cirion

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There was one guy in that thread that claimed he had a body temperature of 94F and yet felt the best he ever had (I won't name names) and I was amazed no one commented on that fact. In fact I am amazed he is not dead. 94F is hypothermic, and Nathan Hatch got cancer at 95F. Makes me wonder if he is running off pure adrenaline...
 

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