The Confounding Factors Of The Low A Diet

[somuch4food]

Grant's theory isn't incomplete, it's incorrect. You've got to realize there's an astronomical difference between toxicity and poison. Toxicity is too much of a good thing can become bad. This isn't the argument that Grant and his supporters are arguing. They consider vitamin A a poison, and any amount, regardless of the individual and their unique current status, is wrong for consuming it. The science is heavily skewed against this claim, not to mention Grant's lack of intelligence in the scientific field makes this a open and shut case.

Come on guys. If you have something against the theory, go over to the freaking thread: Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Sorry that I'm rude, but I've mentioned many times that I do not want a debate HERE. I don't care whether the theory is valid or not. It's working for many, including the moderators of this forum. It worked for me the first time around.

I am acknowledging that Grant's case could be too much of a good thing, but why did it have so much impact over his health even though he only supplemented for a few years with CLO pills. Carotenoids are supposedly safe... He shouldn't be toxic and shouldn't be breaking out because he eats a tomato. Why is that? He reversed a fatal chronic kidney disease for God's sake.

Possibly, but after having some conversations with a few people in the poison A thread I'm kind of turned off to the idea of even approaching his views with an open mind. I've heard all I needed to hear. At this juncture, it has less to do with Grant's views and more to do with how his supporter base is perceiving his views. I mean, I hate drama and don't want to call anyone out personally, but one guy I was talking to on that thread was so misguided that he's approaching tinfoil fat territory. I also did make stop by Grant's website, only to find he's a engineer. Not a medical doctor, not a dietitian, not a physiologist, not a biochemist, or anything of that nature. Engineers are pretty damn smart in their own fields, but it's kind of like asking Albert Einstein's "expertise" in politics, lol.

Why did you come to this thread? Did you not read that I want a practical, constructive conversation, not a DEBATE. If you want to debunk his theory, it's the other thread. If you want to deconstruct this low A diet and find why it works for people than post your experience, studies and theories HERE.

 

[Cirion]

Well, getting back on topic, I personally feel one big factor is minerals. Eating beef every day brings with it a lot of minerals, which includes Iron too, many of us here new to Peat have gone out of our way to avoid.

 

[TeaRex14]

There was one guy in that thread that claimed he had a body temperature of 94F and yet felt the best he ever had (I won't name names) and I was amazed no one commented on that fact. In fact I am amazed he is not dead. 94F is hypothermic, and Nathan Hatch got cancer at 95F. Makes me wonder if he is running off pure adrenaline...

Probably so, stress hormones would be really high at 94, that's a severe case of hypo metabolism. I didn't see the post personally, kind of hard to keep track on such a fast moving thread.

 

[somuch4food]

Well, getting back on topic, I personally feel one big factor is minerals. Eating beef every day brings with it a lot of minerals, which includes Iron too, many of us here new to Peat have gone out of our way to avoid.

That's the spirit. I felt weak at the end of last week. I mostly ate pork and chicken all week. My digestion was weak and told my partner to give me a small serving of duck. I ended up eating one full breast, maybe more because I was actually craving it, but it was suppressed by my weakness/nausea. I'm thinking iron potentially plays a part. I will probably research connections when I find the time. Zinc was also mentioned as important by Grant I think.

 

[TeaRex14]

Come on guys. If you have something against the theory, go over to the freaking thread: Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Sorry that I'm rude, but I've mentioned many times that I do not want a debate HERE. I don't care whether the theory is valid or not. It's working for many, including the moderators of this forum. It worked for me the first time around.

I am acknowledging that Grant's case could be too much of a good thing, but why did it have so much impact over his health even though he only supplemented for a few years with CLO pills. Carotenoids are supposedly safe... He shouldn't be toxic and shouldn't be breaking out because he eats a tomato. Why is that? He reversed a fatal chronic kidney disease for God's sake.



Why did you come to this thread? Did you not read that I want a practical, constructive conversation, not a DEBATE. If you want to debunk his theory, it's the other thread. If you want to deconstruct this low A diet and find why it works for people than post your experience, studies and theories HERE.

Your title of the thread didn't say anything of the sort. And technically, my OP covered why the low A diet works for some people. There is nothing to debate in the poison A theory. Only thing debatable is how much vitamin A do we need, and it's largely based on individualistic factors.

 

[somuch4food]

Your title of the thread didn't say anything of the sort. And technically, my OP covered why the low A diet works for some people. There is nothing to debate in the poison A theory. Only thing debatable is how much vitamin A do we need, and it's largely based on individualistic factors.

Maybe not the title, but the first sentence and my multiple interventions should have been enough to get the gist of it. @Blossom @charlie Maybe change the title. I have no idea how to make it clearer though.

Your answer was too generic and so does not fit the spirit of being practical and constructive. If you can list some of the individualistic factors, then we can have a conversation about those and whether they apply to those following the diet. This could lead us one step closer to understanding the drastic improvements seen by those on the diet.

 

[sunraiser]

Your title of the thread didn't say anything of the sort. And technically, my OP covered why the low A diet works for some people. There is nothing to debate in the poison A theory. Only thing debatable is how much vitamin A do we need, and it's largely based on individualistic factors.

It IS a debate because people are seeing positives from the diet despite many having only gotten adverse symptoms eating normal retinol foods to craving. Not everyone has overdone supplements. It's from a desire to fully understand why

This post is clearly trying to get to the underlying physiological rate limiting mechanisms behind it.

Human physiological knowledge is unimaginably incomplete. There's no point in stamping your feet based on theory within an utterly incomplete context because people's LIVED EXPERIENCES are undermining the fullness of what we perceive to be knowledge.

Your responses are frustrating. I'm interested in people's experiences here despite not having VA issues. It's something that can be enlightening through shared experience and wisdom - just let it be.

 

[postman]

Maybe look into what Kruse has to say about retinol and melanopsin.

 

[dwide]

I increased my olive oil consumption. I am actually suspicious of the olive oil I'm currently using. I changed brands in between the 2 attempts, this one might have too many carotenoids.

FWIW, I am also highly suspicious of olive oil. I was even using an "extra light" variety, and I'm pretty sure it was still giving me issues. (Took me like 2 weeks to figure it out.) I've also seen Grant write that some people don't do well on olive oil, despite trying several brands.

Just yesterday I bought some high oleic sunflower oil, and will be trying that out instead.

 

[dwide]

The thing is that going so low is not practical for me and creates additional stress when dealing with social events. I have accepted that I can't go as low as many will and that I will have days where vitamin A gets too high. I will use those experiences to analyze how I can get back on the right track faster, or to find ways to be more tolerant on special occasions.

I agree about social events. I still haven't figured out how to navigate these without seeming like too much of a weirdo. And not knowing ingredients makes it harder to track reactions.

The wheat could be problematic. No A in it since I'm in Canada, but the fortification could still be messing me up.

Wheat in the US isn't fortified with VA either. Just iron and B vitamins. Socially I'll eat it, but at home I avoid it.

Another weird thing I've noticed is fortified bread products seem worse than fortified pasta. Maybe it has to do with oxidation of the iron or vitamins? (Could also be oils used, yeast, other ingredients, etc.)

 

[somuch4food]

FWIW, I am also highly suspicious of olive oil. I was even using an "extra light" variety, and I'm pretty sure it was still giving me issues. (Took me like 2 weeks to figure it out.) I've also seen Grant write that some people don't do well on olive oil, despite trying several brands.

Just yesterday I bought some high oleic sunflower oil, and will be trying that out instead.

Let me know if you notice a difference. We can build knowledge together that way.

Wheat in the US isn't fortified with VA either. Just iron and B vitamins. Socially I'll eat it, but at home I avoid it.

I thought it was since cereals are. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Blossom]

Maybe not the title, but the first sentence and my multiple interventions should have been enough to get the gist of it. @Blossom @charlie Maybe change the title. I have no idea how to make it clearer though.

Your answer was too generic and so does not fit the spirit of being practical and constructive. If you can list some of the individualistic factors, then we can have a conversation about those and whether they apply to those following the diet. This could lead us one step closer to understanding the drastic improvements seen by those on the diet.

I love your title but I will think on it and if I come up with anything I’ll let you know.

 

[dwide]

Let me know if you notice a difference. We can build knowledge together that way.

Will do. I'm hopeful about it. Last night was my first time eating those Kettle chips as well. I ate a few servings with dinner. I felt fine after, and slept fine as well. Normally after eating high PUFA chips or french fries, I feel awful shortly after. (Get really cold and low energy.)

 

[dwide]

Don't know if you've seen this study, on how cleavage products from Beta Carotene can act as Retinol Receptor Antagonists-

Naturally Occurring Eccentric Cleavage Products of Provitamin A β-Carotene Function as Antagonists of Retinoic Acid Receptors

Heh. "Cleavage".

 

[dwide]

I'm personally of the belief, at this point, that it doesn't have much (if anything) to do with cutting out real Vitamin A, and (almost) everything to do with cutting out the caroteniods. The caroteniods don't convert efficiently to retinol, and their cleavage products do block the actions of Vitamin A. This is also in line with what Peat says, explains why Grant had such a negative reaction to a carrot (which contains zero Vitamin A, but lots of Beta Carotene), and why Blossom is doing so well, with high serum retinol levels.

This could very well be true. The problem is, what foods contain pure retinol, with no carotenoids attached? Egg yolks have lutein. Butter has beta-carotene. Even liver has beta-carotene. (Source.)

So it seems that a low/no carotenoid diet will necessarily also be a low/no retinol diet.

 

[mipp]

Why is this diet working for so many people?

How many and for how long? So far it's working for a few people on forums, most of whom have a history of food intolerance, orthorexia, crazy supplementation or restrictive eating. It is a high carb, high protein diet based on meat. Lean muscle meat is easy to digest and non-allergenic for most people, no revelations here. if you eat like Grant you get:

• over 100g of high quality protein along with minerals and good amount of B vitamins
• no problematic protein sources like milk, eggs or grains
• low sugars meaning fewer problems with malabsorption/fermentation, overburdened liver, uric acid and so on
  
• rice as a relatively clean source of carbs, almost like pure glucose without antinutrients found commonly in plants

Everything is covered except for calcium and ADEK. These are either stored or can be made in your body so you can live without eating them for a while on an extremely restricted and boring diet.

I don't think it has much to do with Vit A. Many people could probably replace beef with seafood or pork, if they can digest the fats, and still be good. Possibly organ meats as well, some could even add pickled veggies for taste. And that would be much like some traditional asian diets. Rice, meats, no dairy, low sucrose. People who struggle with milk or simple sugars and suffered on Ray Peat inspired diets will think it's the best thing ever. That is also why low carb diets work for some people, especially those who handle long chain fats well. They restrict sugars, wheat or fiber, or whatever it is that interferes with proper digestion and utilization of protein, and have great results.

 

[postman]

How many and for how long? So far it's working for a few people on forums, most of whom have a history of food intolerance, orthorexia, crazy supplementation or restrictive eating. It is a high carb, high protein diet based on meat. Lean muscle meat is easy to digest and non-allergenic for most people, no revelations here. if you eat like Grant you get:

• over 100g of high quality protein along with minerals and good amount of B vitamins
• no problematic protein sources like milk, eggs or grains
• low sugars meaning fewer problems with malabsorption/fermentation, overburdened liver, uric acid and so on
  
• rice as a relatively clean source of carbs, almost like pure glucose without antinutrients found commonly in plants

Everything is covered except for calcium and ADEK. These are either stored or can be made in your body so you can live without eating them for a while on an extremely restricted and boring diet.

I don't think it has much to do with Vit A. Many people could probably replace beef with seafood or pork, if they can digest the fats, and still be good. Possibly organ meats as well, some could even add pickled veggies for taste. And that would be much like some traditional asian diets. Rice, meats, no dairy, low sucrose. People who struggle with milk or simple sugars and suffered on Ray Peat inspired diets will think it's the best thing ever. That is also why low carb diets work for some people, especially those who handle long chain fats well. They restrict sugars, wheat or fiber, or whatever it is that interferes with proper digestion and utilization of protein, and have great results.

you do realize he recommends you to eat beans every single day right

 

[schultz]

This could very well be true. The problem is, what foods contain pure retinol, with no carotenoids attached? Egg yolks have lutein. Butter has beta-carotene. Even liver has beta-carotene. (Source.)

So it seems that a low/no carotenoid diet will necessarily also be a low/no retinol diet.

Eggs can have no carotenes if the hens don't consume it. Butter can have no carotene depending on the type of animal (goat, buffalo)

Not exactly practical though, if you're trying to be super strict.

you do realize he recommends you to eat beans every single day right

I think Grant went an entire year with only beef and rice? How many people on the forum who are doing this experiment are consuming beans daily? It would be interesting to find out.

 

[mipp]

you do realize he recommends you to eat beans every single day right

Correct me if I'm wrong bu he recommends foods that have no vitamin A, not beans specifically. I don't know if his followers eat them daily. I wouldn't. But you're right, he eats them, probably because he likes them and they work for him. Or mabye they don't, maybe that's why he still hasn't healed completely and has all those food sensitivities?

 

[postman]

Correct me if I'm wrong bu he recommends foods that have no vitamin A, not beans specifically. I don't know if his followers eat them daily. I wouldn't. But you're right, he eats them, probably because he likes them and they work for him. Or mabye they don't, maybe that's why he still hasn't healed completely and has all those food sensitivities?

You don't even know what foods he recommends and yet here you are laying judgements about his diet.