A Case For Wheat

[Nicole W.]

I feel better with sourdough in my diet than I do without it. Also, I feel like it supports the use of other Peat approved foods. I have a harder time eating cheese or butter without bread, for example. The protein and B vitamins are more bioavailable in sourdough bread and count towards my overall intake. Sourdough is pretty low on the glycemic index and never feel like a crash is coming after I consume it. It keeps me full for longer also, which is a plus. I think, as starches go, it’s fairly innocuous if eaten in moderation. Other than potatoes, it’s pretty much the only other starch I co

 

[Mufasa]

Fruit mixes really poorly with other foods, however it’s typically the perfect snack to replenish liver glycogen (1 fruit per hour does the job) plus there’s little insulin spiking. It is also very satiating and mixes quite well with dairy, which keeps the serotonin imbalance in check. Your 25g figure probably comes from the fact that sedentary people don’t really burn more than 25g of glycogen per hour - that is, unless they train.

On the other hand, wheat is absolutely terrible for blood sugar control, auto immunity (which you can’t realize right now after a few occurrences of eating bread, however good it tastes), inflammation which goes hand in hand with insulin resistance, and so on. That sodium/potassium ratio is awful as well.

Peat has written extensively on starch vs sugar, id recommend giving his articles another read.

IIRC, how much free fructose can be absorbed varies per person and is between 5g and 50g per meal. If it is not absorbed then it will feed bacteria and causes endotoxin. Therefore if you get most carbs from fruit, many people do best, as you said with many small meals.

I know Ray Peat prefers fruit, and many people here do, but if you look at this forum, you will see enough people that feel better with some starches.

Fruit is just not always the best option. They contain a lot of liquid. It is very expensive to get most of your carbs from fruit, if you need more than 400g+ of carbs. You may react allergenic to fruit. They often contain a lot of anti oxidants which may cause reductive stress and impair respiration. They are low in sodium and may not taste well when adding salt. They may contain serotonin. Etc.

Ray Peat emphasizes the problems of starches. But both may give problems, and for both there are possible solutions. What is optimal depends on the context of the person and should be determined by experimentation.

I do well with getting 100-200g of carbs from fruit/coconut water and 300-400g of carbs from starches. For example, a meal may be, 4 slices of bread with cheese and beef, and skyr with fruits as dessert.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I would never have fruit as a dessert. I would certainly not mix starch, meat, cheese, and fruit and more dairy in one sitting. Interesting that you’d blame the fruit for the poor digestion after such a meal.

The way I schedule it is fruit in the AM only (skyr works in a fruity breakfast), and bananas periWorkout.

I think the ideal ratio is the one that sustains the best glycogen (liver+muscle) refilling - a 2 to 1 glucose to fructose ratio. I’m averaging 500g of carbs a day and that’s 150ish grams of starch. I’ve been thinking and rethinking it and that isn’t super hard to reach, actually very normal eating plan. So yeah, some starch, I’m not disagreeing... but fruit timing is everything.

They contain a lot of liquid. It is very expensive to get most of your carbs from fruit, I you need more than 400g+ of carbs. You may react allergenic on fruit. They often contain a lot of anti oxidants which may cause reductive stress and impair respiration. They are low in sodium and may not taste well when adding salt.

- why would liquids be a problem? You need proper hydration on top of a high mineral intake
- costly indeed, if we’re comparing organic produce to mass produced grains, yeah. I value optimal health highly though
- worrying of allergenic reactions to fruit but not being bothered by lectins?
- antioxidants from fruits aren’t a problem, reductionist studies are. The other day someone else pointed towards all the negative studies and ***t blood tests on high sucrose; fruits are way more than sucrose+anti oxidants+vitamins+minerals. A real food is always much more than the sum of its parts
- a high sodium diet has never been desirable unless you’re living in a desert. Shoot for a Sodium:potassium ratio of 1:4. If you’re gonna sweat, baking soda is your friend, which tastes like cancer anyway

The serotonin may or may not be desirable. We all have different neurotransmitters needs. The endotoxins from starch are way more concerning (that includes bananas)

From Peat on endotoxins

RAY PEAT: Mostly it seems to be things that are poorly digested that pass along with a lot of food value down into the intestine where bacteria thrive on them. Things like fruit are so quickly digested by most people. The liquid parts, minerals and sugars can be largely absorbed before you get down to the bacterial area of the intestine. And so the more indigestible the food is the more risky it is for supporting an overgrowth of bacteria.

Again, I suggest you read more of his work, and see where his love of fruit is coming from.

 

[Mufasa]

I would never have fruit as a dessert. I would certainly not mix starch, meat, cheese, and fruit and more dairy in one sitting. Interesting that you’d blame the fruit for the poor digestion after such a meal.

The way I schedule it is fruit in the AM only (skyr works in a fruity breakfast), and bananas periWorkout.

I think the ideal ratio is the one that sustains the best glycogen (liver+muscle) refilling - a 2 to 1 glucose to fructose ratio. I’m averaging 500g of carbs a day and that’s 150ish grams of starch. I’ve been thinking and rethinking it and that isn’t super hard to reach, actually very normal eating plan. So yeah, some starch, I’m not disagreeing... but fruit timing is everything.



- why would liquids be a problem? You need proper hydration on top of a high mineral intake
- costly indeed, if we’re comparing organic produce to mass produced grains, yeah. I value optimal health highly though
- worrying of allergenic reactions to fruit but not being bothered by lectins?
- antioxidants from fruits aren’t a problem, reductionist studies are. The other day someone else pointed towards all the negative studies and ***t blood tests on high sucrose; fruits are way more than sucrose+anti oxidants+vitamins+minerals. A real food is always much more than the sum of its parts
- a high sodium diet has never been desirable unless you’re living in a desert. Shoot for a Sodium:potassium ratio of 1:4. If you’re gonna sweat, baking soda is your friend, which tastes like cancer anyway

The serotonin may or may not be desirable. We all have different neurotransmitters needs. The endotoxins from starch are way more concerning (that includes bananas)

From Peat on endotoxins



Again, I suggest you read more of his work, and see where his love of fruit is coming from.

I don’t have poor digestion consuming such a meal. Fruit and starch combine well for me. I have 2/3 well formed sausages. I do love some fruits in a meal. But for example, if I eat 1L of OJ instead of the 4 slices of bread, that I find hard to digest. I get loose stools and I think it is because I can not handle the 50 gram of fructose in such a meal.

To be clear, Im not trying to say that you or anyone should eat more starches or bread. Im just trying to point out that wheat may be a good option for starch and that it works well for me.

Some people react bad on the too much liquid from fruit/fruit juices. For example on a day, one may have, 3 quarts of water from fruit, 3 quarts of water from milk, 1 quart of liquid from soda, 1 quart of liquid from coffee etc. Some dont do well on that. Others do.

Im not trying to “debate” what the optimal carb source is. I’m not worried about allergenic reactions on fruir. I just know from very close experience that some people react allergenic to many fruits, in this context fruit may not be an option. If you react very poorly on wheat, in that context, dont eat wheat.

If you do well on lots fruit and can afford it, enjoy it. I’m aware about Ray Peat’s thoughts on sugar and starch. I have done for some time zero starch, with 2-4L of OJ and dates. I felt good on it. At this moment I feel very good with more starch and less liquid.

So you eat around 300g of carbs from fruit I guess? What kind of fruit do you eat if I may ask?

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Peaches/kiwis/oranges/melons, 2 servings upon waking up
Bananas and apples, about 5-6 each per day. I just snack one at a time which is satisfying both hunger and thirst.

I rarely if ever drink my calories. That’s when digestion can be problematic, and I don’t recommend it at all.

I understand that you got some issues with such high quantities of fluids and fructose in one sitting. Impossible to achieve with the real whole fruit though.

I agree that sourdough could be fine, my nickname gives the indication maybe your title was misleading me.

 

[paymanz]

I think you may be right, but I can not find a good source.
Sadly, the calcium content that I found seems to be from additives as well.

just check pufa content of wheat grains. plain bread is wheat and water.

 

[Ella]

Sourdough bread is delicious with organic butter and marmalade or a salty cheese - very satisfying.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Sourdough bread is delicious with organic butter and marmalade or a salty cheese - very satisfying.

I would never do that mix in my never ending quest of perfect health, but a massive sourdough sandwich after a bodybuilding show is absolutely pleasurable

 

[Blossom]

I'm sure I'd eat wheat occasionally if I didn't have celiac. As far as taste goes there is really no adequate substitute for wheat IMO.

 

[miki14]

Kiwi fruit does contain proteolitic enzymes that break down protein in particular gluten. Good to eat after a protein or gluten rich meal. I find that honey has a benefical effect on wheat digestion too. Probably due to the presence of amylase in honey. Bananas have a similar effect.

Dietary actinidin increased the gastric digestion of beef muscle (0.6-fold), gluten (3.2-fold), and SPI (0.6-fold) and increased the GE of the diets containing beef muscle (43% T(½)) and zein (23% T(½); P < 0.05). There was an inverse correlation between gastric protein digestion and DM retained in the stomach (r = -0.67; P < 0.05). In conclusion, dietary actinidin increased gastric protein digestion and accelerated the GE for several dietary protein sources. GE may be influenced by gastric protein digestion, and dietary actinidin can be used to modulate GE and protein digestion in the stomach of some dietary protein sources but not others.
Dietary actinidin from kiwifruit (Actinidia deliciosa cv. Hayward) increases gastric digestion and the gastric emptying rate of several dietary prote... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[shepherdgirl]

On the other hand, wheat is absolutely terrible for blood sugar control

Well I read that pasta made with semolina actually has a low GI and that it is digested slowly. I don't know if the same would be true for baked goods using semolina instead of normal flour. Real sourdough bread has a low GI, iirc the acid content slows down its digestion. Also if you take some fat or acid with normal bread it should be digested more slowly.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I don’t really use GI. It’s too basic. Insulin and glycemic load matter way more imho

 

[Runenight201]

I’m starting to believe that I’d rather be hypo then give up my occasionally cheesy pasta with tomato sauce. My stomach is very well satiated and my brain is tingling with pleasure...but I do feel some ever so slight joint pain....oh well.

 

[somuch4food]

I’m starting to believe that I’d rather be hypo then give up my occasionally cheesy pasta with tomato sauce. My stomach is very well satiated and my brain is tingling with pleasure...but I do feel some ever so slight joint pain....oh well.

That's the thing. I want to be healthy to be able to live a fulfiling life, yet I want to enjoy food too. Especially in a social setting.

 

[Blossom]

That's the thing. I want to be healthy to be able to live a fulfiling life, yet I want to enjoy food too. Especially in a social setting.

 

[Runenight201]

That's the thing. I want to be healthy to be able to live a fulfiling life, yet I want to enjoy food too. Especially in a social setting.

I've seen others post it, but once the metabolism is healthy enough, they can handle occasional insults without too much repercussion, especially if vitamin E/aspirin/other supps are available. I don't think I will ever travel without Vitamin E and Aspirin in my travel bag. Sugar, dairy, and fruit juice can be bought most anywhere, and so long as one chooses restaurants that aren't fast food or fast casual, then I think that may be well enough.

Also, I'm a personal believer that if you aren't enjoying the meals you're preparing at home, something isn't right.

For instance at lunch today, my "safe" meal usually is rice, lentils, tomato sauce, salt, cheese, and fruit juice. However, the thought of eating that sounded disgusting, and pasta seemed very, very appetizing. Surely, physiologically, there has to be something in the pasta that my body needed that rice and lentils weren't able to provide. While the gluten (or perhaps high phosphorous) caused joint pain, perhaps the high b-vitamin status or extra protein in the pasta was needed by my body, so maybe it was still a metabolic appropriate food in my case. I definitely feel content, happy, and satiated, just some slight joint pain.

 

[fradon]

A couple of months ago I have reintroduced wheat in my diet.
I now sometimes eat up to 500 gram of bread a day.

Now there are of course obvious issues with bread.
For example, many people feel immediate discomfort when eating bread.
But when you don't, and if you are able to get some good quality bread, I would consider it.
Everything has downsides and nothing is perfect.

Fruit are often allergenic, high in serotonin, contain a lot of liquid, hard to combine with salt and are very expensive.
Also, many people react bad to more than 25 gram of fructose in a meal.
Potatoes take a lot of time to prepare, and have little calcium.
Rice contains almost no minerals except for phosphorus and manganese.

So let's consider wheat, I normally eat 100 gram of carbs per meal, so let's consider such a portion.

Wheat Bread (210 gram)

Good:
- 100 gram of carbs
- Optimal Calcium/Phosphorus ratio of 0.97, white bread is even better
- A good amount of B1, B2, B3, B5 and B9 (50% RDA on average)
- 2g of salt
- 100% of RDA of selenium and manganese
- low tryptophan (0.2 gram)

Bad:
- gluten can be hard to digest
- may raise endotoxin because of starch/fiber
- low in potassium
- 3.4g of PUFA
- 7.6g of iron

To digest gluten, I really need to take my time. I chew 40 times per bite.
I don't look at screens, I'm fully focussed on the food, I make it my (or our) mindful 20-30 minutes.
After eating, I try not to move for another 30 min.
So basically, I try to make sure my stress hormones are really low during that time and that all my blood can flow to my digestion.

I think the same also helps with endotoxin. Eating some saturated fat (cheese for example) helps with endotoxin. Also just not eating that often helps. I try to limit to 4 to 5 meals (including snacks), which means eating every 3-4 hours.

For iron, drinking a cup of coffee with a wheat meal is probably a good idea.
For potassium, I often drink a glass of coconut water (not from concentrate) with it or I eat a dessert with fruit.

For the people from the Netherlands, I use the brand "VanMenno" at the "Ekoplaza", which I think is superb both in quality and taste.

there is theory that is not so much the gluten in bread that causes problem though it can for some, but it is the ENRICHMENT especially the IRON fortificaiton in wheat that causes problems. not to mentions many flours have REDUCED IRON which is nothing more than iron filings put in cereals, flours, and breads. this the stuff that gets stored in the body and can causes disease and digestive problems.

sourdough bread is suppose to help with digestive problems. i've been buying bread from panera and its sourdough and i have no problem with the bread. there are some new breads out in the market too that are ogranic and have no fortfication that might be a good choice.

 

[NewACC]

@Mufasa just seems like a lot to go through to consume something that’s less optimal than other food choices. And what happens if you have a stressful experience before you eat? just sitting down and doing your normal bread eating protocol probably won’t be enough to mitigate the negative effect of the starch and gluten (if it was even enough in the first place... I personally don’t think it is). I guess I would respect the idea of focusing on your food when your eating. It can be beneficial to be 100 percent engaged in whatever your doing and not multitask. I mean if your not trying to do what’s optimal I get that and it’s not s big deal (eating bread) but from the couple of posts I’ve seen by you It seems like you’re concerned with what’s optimal. There’s certainly worse things that you could eat. But 3.4g of PUFA per 100gs of carbs.... I consume probably 1.5 kilos of carbs a day so if I relied on bread as my main carb I’d be getting 34 grams of PUFA a day! Terrifying

I don't know why the forum members generally decided that bread without added vegetable oil would contain a lot of PUFA. The whole grain bread sold here in Ukraine and Russia contains only 0.4g PUFA per 100g of bread, which is better than the average 1g PUFA per 100g of buckwheat and shocking 2-3g PUFA per 100g of porridge