A Case Of Chronic Low Grade Acidosis

[Rafael Lao Wai]

That sounds like a quote right from Dr. Morse himself. I see you quoting a lot of his ideas around here often, as I once did.

I felt great following his strategies for a few months, then things went south quick. I was peeing over 20 times a day, always ice cold, and my blood and hair tests were never worse. My triglycerides were sky high and cholesterol (especially HDL) was extremely low, basically signaling insulin resistance. Also, I lost 25 lbs, getting down to 125 lbs (I’m a 6’0 male and always have been very lean and my normal weight is 155-160 lbs). I was so weak I couldn’t do 1 pull-up (I can normally do up to 20 pretty effortlessly). I got about about 7 cavities in 5 months after not having one cavity my first 35 years of existence on this planet.

Of all the things I’ve ever tried, the Morse stuff was the only thing I ever regret doing. Go search YouTube of the horror stories people have long-term trying to stick to that. I heard from someone I trust that knows that staff that work at his detox centers and none of them follow his protocols because they made them unwell after doing it for an extended period as well. Morse himself doesn’t even follow it.

You might be feeling great now, as I did at the start, but I would be very careful recommending this idea to others here. Long-term, it’s not safe nor sustainable at all

I felt like that on a low protein diet. It's amazing that simply eating an appropriate amount of quality protein-rich foods increased my strength so much. A lot easier to maintain muscle mass too. Also, the fact that Peat himself eats a high-ish protein diet is very telling as well. Without enough amin0-acids, serotonin rises, so the reason people feel "good" may be that: stress at the beginning feels good, but it takes its toll eventually. Also, a quicker transit time has a lot of benefits, so I think going fruitarian once or twice a week and then eating high protein on the other days can be very interesting.

 

[Cirion]

I wonder if all the anti-protein talk is actually speaking against the negative amino-acids that Peat has already warned us against repeatedly (Tryptophan, Cystein, Methionine etc...)

Because the average joe does not have quality protein (gelatin), and eats way too many tryptophan heavy proteins, it would then be reasonably easy to just say "protein is the problem". I personally think this is only a half truth. I think as long as the negative AA's are minimized and the quality AA"s are maximized, this will go a long way towards health. Certainly, strategic protein fasts can rid oneself of negative AA's floating around the bloodstream but it is a Band-Aid solution.

Nathan hatch also speaks to doing strategic protein fasts for a day or two at most. Long term protein fasts are simply not beneficial.

 

[somuch4food]

@bennyha That sounds a bit like what I experienced when I removed most processed foods, especially added sugar from my diet over the summer and attempted to eat more colorful fruits and vegetables. I got insomnia, worsened blood sugar issues, tooth sensitivities and lost 15 pounds. I was 135 at 5'9. I'm female, you must have been looking like a skeleton with your height.

I watched a few videos of Morse, some I couldn't even finish since he's so dogmatic and condescending. I find the book by Ehret much more interesting and it provides a more balanced view with a transition from mixed eating to cooked fruits and veggies and eventually to a raw fruitarian, but he's not selling it as the only solution. He mentions that skipping breakfast can be enough to cure many (intermittent fasting which has become popular in recent years).

What I found crazy in the book by Ehret is that he mentions carnivore and raw vegan diets even at the beginning of this century. I thought all this craze was new, but it's been around longer than most of us.

I think, like the Rice diet, a diet of only fruits and veggies can be useful to give a break to the body from processing nutrient rich calorie rich foods and help regaining some balance.

Also, a quicker transit time has a lot of benefits, so I think going fruitarian once or twice a week and then eating high protein on the other days can be very interesting.

That's what I'm planning to toy with in the following weeks. It won't be fruitarian, but low protein days without grains, dairy or meat. If I become seriously constipated again, I will redo a low protein to see if I get the same positive result.

Certainly, strategic protein fasts can rid oneself of negative AA's floating around the bloodstream but it is a Band-Aid solution.

It's not a band-aid, it's a lifestyle change and I feel it's a lot less a hassle than attempting to balance everything. The body does not need to be provided with all nutrients every single day, so missing proteins for a day won't affect it badly. I get tired of jello fast and won't supplement for the sake of balancing something which might not even need to be balanced if the body is provided a strategic break to help rebalance itself.

It also feels way better than fasting. You don't have to starve yourself.

 

[Cirion]

It's not a band-aid, it's a lifestyle change and I feel it's a lot less a hassle than attempting to balance everything. The body does not need to be provided with all nutrients every single day, so missing proteins for a day won't affect it badly. I get tired of jello fast and won't supplement for the sake of balancing something which might not even need to be balanced if the body is provided a strategic break to help rebalance itself.

It also feels way better than fasting. You don't have to starve yourself.

Maybe I worded it wrong. I mainly meant to say that long-term protein fasts are not so good / band aids. I don't see anything all that wrong with protein fasting one or two times a week maybe. There are a few here who have luck doing that. But even the need to do that would be lessened or even eliminated if one merely watches their amino acid intakes throughout the week. I know a couple of people here do have some luck with low ish protein intake overall, which is their method to balance the effects of AA's. tyw eats like 25-50 gram a day, and @olive eats 50-75 gram a day. That's so low that the problems of AA's are likely close to nil. I personally don't feel great on super low protein so I prefer to balance my AA's with gelatin/BCAA which was haidut's approach and others.

 

[somuch4food]

But even the need to do that would be lessened or even eliminated if one merely watches their amino acid intakes throughout the week.

I guess we see the effort for each strategy differently. For me, a short protein fast sounds way easier and more interesting than tracking amino acids.

 

[Cirion]

I guess we see the effort for each strategy differently. For me, a short protein fast sounds way easier and more interesting than tracking amino acids.

that's fair. It's not an incorrect approach at all. Different strokes for different people. For me though, I like to balance on a day-to-day basis largely because the negative AA's definitely do make me feel bad but this bad feeling is negated with sufficient gelatin. So it's a quality of life thing. I don't want to feel bad 5/7 days of the week haha

I keep wanting to bring my overall protein intake down since I know this will reduce the AA issue also, but every time I try to go low protein I don't feel right..

 

[bennyha]

@somuch4food I looked and felt awful. Didn’t realize just how bad until I saw a picture of myself at Thanksgiving. I looked like I had a terminal illness and my mom had so many people reach out to her and ask her what was wrong with me. I had no physical strength at all and my teeth hurt all the time. I literally peed every 30 minutes a day and woke up 3x per night to pee. It was torture.

I think everyone just has to keep experimenting and find out what works for them. We are all different with different chemistries. I’ve eaten only steak for almost 4 months now, and health issues I’ve had for 20 years (and I’ve tried EVERYTHING and worked with practitioners in 3 different countries and spent so much money on tests, supplements, etc that I could be living in a beautiful home somewhere) have been completely cured. I’ve had pretty bad acne for 20 years. It has ruined my life in so many ways. Within a week of eating only steak, my face completely healed and I haven’t had a single zit since. It’s like a miracle and the most liberating thing in the world to me. I’ve tried numerous very limited diets for months at a time (beef and rice and veggies only, beef and potatoes, beef and fruit, then the same but with fish or chicken as my protein source) and nothing has ever worked. I’ve also had frequent urination my entire life and now I go 5 times a day and that’s it. I couldn’t grow chest hair my entire and very little facial hair. In 3 months I have probably a 50x increase in chest hair growth and I’m starting to grow facial hair now. My skin looks alive and rejuvenated. My weight went from 125 lbs to 150 lbs in four weeks eating this way and it hasn’t budged since. I’m never hungry and never think about food. I eat once in the morning and again at dinner. I stopped lifting weights years ago because I burnt myself out from overtraining. I just do chin-ups to see my strength levels and I could do 3 sets of 12 chin-ups as easy as can be. I have a six pack and I look like I lift every day even though I haven’t been able to lift weights for over 5 years now.

Am I saying that people should eat this way? No not at all. I’m saying I have self experimented with every style of eating possible and this is the only thing that worked for me. I plan to start adding foods in very slowly over the course of the coming months to see what foods I can eat without giving me acne again. I also had blood and hair tests taken before and after and I’m supposed to get them back Monday so I’m interested to see what they look like as well. I’ve been “sick” with chronic fatigue for 9 years and this is the only thing that has helped me at all in those 9 years. The amount of improvement I’ve seen overall is damn near miraculous to me. I quit taking supplements and just ate meat and let my body heal. And it’s starting to do that on its own. I’m sure just getting rid of things that weren’t serving me well are a huge part of the success. The fact I can look great and never be hungry while not having to exercise (although I wish I could as exercise is a passion of mine and was my career before I got sick 9 years ago) but most of all NOT HAVE ACNE has been a blessing to me.

Again, not saying anyone should try this. Just sharing my personal experience. Experiment and try to find things that make you feel and look good and make that your base.

Edited to add: I’ve been 150 lbs for most of the past 8 years. It wasn’t until I had a plant based diet that I started losing weight rapidly. I lost 25 lbs in 12 weeks, then gained the 25 pounds back in 4 weeks eating just meat. I was eating over 2500 calories per day and still wasting away. The amount of money I was soending on organic fruits and vegetables was crazy insane as well. Having eaten the rainbow of fruits of vegetables my entire life and never noticing any results, I think they are highly overrated in my honest opinion.

 

[Blossom]

@somuch4food I looked and felt awful. Didn’t realize just how bad until I saw a picture of myself at Thanksgiving. I looked like I had a terminal illness and my mom had so many people reach out to her and ask her what was wrong with me. I had no physical strength at all and my teeth hurt all the time. I literally peed every 30 minutes a day and woke up 3x per night to pee. It was torture.

I think everyone just has to keep experimenting and find out what works for them. We are all different with different chemistries. I’ve eaten only steak for almost 4 months now, and health issues I’ve had for 20 years (and I’ve tried EVERYTHING and worked with practitioners in 3 different countries and spent so much money on tests, supplements, etc that I could be living in a beautiful home somewhere) have been completely cured. I’ve had pretty bad acne for 20 years. It has ruined my life in so many ways. Within a week of eating only steak, my face completely healed and I haven’t had a single zit since. It’s like a miracle and the most liberating thing in the world to me. I’ve tried numerous very limited diets for months at a time (beef and rice and veggies only, beef and potatoes, beef and fruit, then the same but with fish or chicken as my protein source) and nothing has ever worked. I’ve also had frequent urination my entire life and now I go 5 times a day and that’s it. I couldn’t grow chest hair my entire and very little facial hair. In 3 months I have probably a 50x increase in chest hair growth and I’m starting to grow facial hair now. My skin looks alive and rejuvenated. My weight went from 125 lbs to 150 lbs in four weeks eating this way and it hasn’t budged since. I’m never hungry and never think about food. I eat once in the morning and again at dinner. I stopped lifting weights years ago because I burnt myself out from overtraining. I just do chin-ups to see my strength levels and I could do 3 sets of 12 chin-ups as easy as can be. I have a six pack and I look like I lift every day even though I haven’t been able to lift weights for over 5 years now.

Am I saying that people should eat this way? No not at all. I’m saying I have self experimented with every style of eating possible and this is the only thing that worked for me. I plan to start adding foods in very slowly over the course of the coming months to see what foods I can eat without giving me acne again. I also had blood and hair tests taken before and after and I’m supposed to get them back Monday so I’m interested to see what they look like as well. I’ve been “sick” with chronic fatigue for 9 years and this is the only thing that has helped me at all in those 9 years. The amount of improvement I’ve seen overall is damn near miraculous to me. I quit taking supplements and just ate meat and let my body heal. And it’s starting to do that on its own. I’m sure just getting rid of things that weren’t serving me well are a huge part of the success. The fact I can look great and never be hungry while not having to exercise (although I wish I could as exercise is a passion of mine and was my career before I got sick 9 years ago) but most of all NOT HAVE ACNE has been a blessing to me.

Again, not saying anyone should try this. Just sharing my personal experience. Experiment and try to find things that make you feel and look good and make that your base.

Edited to add: I’ve been 150 lbs for most of the past 8 years. It wasn’t until I had a plant based diet that I started losing weight rapidly. I lost 25 lbs in 12 weeks, then gained the 25 pounds back in 4 weeks eating just meat. I was eating over 2500 calories per day and still wasting away. The amount of money I was soending on organic fruits and vegetables was crazy insane as well. Having eaten the rainbow of fruits of vegetables my entire life and never noticing any results, I think they are highly overrated in my honest opinion.

I'm beyond happy for you!!! Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

+1
Glad you're feeling better.

 

[charlie]

Go search YouTube of the horror stories people have long-term trying to stick to that.

I have never heard Morse once say this is long term. Marcy has never said that either, nor Patty. Morse runs a clinic and sick people come to him for help. These people are usually in very chronic stages of dis-ease and need drastic action. He has said many times, once you pull yourself out of crisis, then feel free to do what you want. I have heard him say many times that due to the state of the world(physical and spiritual), it would be really hard to stay all fruit all the time. From my observations, a slow transition is needed. It could take up to a full decade to make the switch if someone did decide to go all the way fruit. It took John Rose 5 years to make the full switch to raw. I am in full agreement with Ehret that the transition needs to be done slowly.

Go search YouTube of the horror stories people have long-term trying to stick to that.

I have seen the horror stories, and I also see the amazing success stories. I think a lot of the horror stories is from people staying in detox/cleanse phase for way too long, and not coming back to the rebuilding/transition phase. People are gung ho to get over to full fruitarian, when a transition of a few years is probably needed. I cannot blame them for this, but I do not think it is the right way to approach it.

I heard from someone I trust that knows that staff that work at his detox centers and none of them follow his protocols because they made them unwell after doing it for an extended period as well.

That is odd. They were just on video the first of the year because the whole office was doing a 10 day lemon fast. Doing a detox, that they themselves will come out of after the 10 days and go back to their building/transition diet.

Morse himself doesn’t even follow it.

Morse has said himself, many times. That he loves his Indian food way too much. He is human after all. He also said that when he was doing clinicals, that he had a hard time staying all fruit due to the different energy you have from the people who are very sick. I believe what he says because I am already witnessing it myself. Now that he does not see anyone anymore, he retired from seeing people, you can see that he is making huge strides and is looking much much better. He is obviously back on his system and kicking butt.

Long-term, it’s not safe nor sustainable at all

I agree, jumping right into full fruit and expecting it to work long term is not gonna work. 5 to 7 year transition is probably about right. Maybe even 10 years for the massively congested person.

 

[somuch4food]

I have resumed both butter and pancakes with maple syrup. My mood and motivation seems to be coming back. Unfortunately, I can't say which one made the biggest difference.

My body still is sluggish though. I'm hoping that I will be able to get better sleep in the coming days. That would certainly help since I've felt tired in the last few days.

 

[Blossom]

He also said that when he was doing clinicals, that he had a hard time staying all fruit due to the different energy you have from the people who are very sick.

I must say that I myself have noticed that when I work a 12 hour shift in the hospital ICU I absolutely must have protein. If I'm home I can eat fruit through out the day until the evening family meal but when you are surrounded by illness it's a whole different situation. I don't fully understand it and it sounds crazy but that's my experience.

 

[RisingSun]

From my experience, acidosis is from the kidneys failing to filter out the metabolic wastes via the lymphatic system

Could it be an impaired liver function?

Lactic acidosis and liver disease. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[RisingSun]

Sinus issues are a backed up lymphatic system. Since the kidneys are not filtering like they should, and the bowels are also not obstruction free, the lymph and mucus will starting oozing out the sinuses. When it gets to the sinuses it is a very chronic situation because it is now backing up into the head. Would not be surprised if hair loss started, eyes issues, etc.


From my observations, the more fruit added to life, the better.

Lymph is also filtered through the liver

I wouldn’t be surprised if all of your and OP’s issues were actually due to liver issues rather than kidneys.
Liver is an essential upstream organ, kidneys are end-of-the-chain passive organs.

Have you tried doing Hulda Clarck’s liver flush Charlie?

 

[somuch4food]

While experimenting with fruits, I've identified that citrus fruits, melons, berries and bananas I tolerate well. Raw pears/apples seem to throw me off. I don't know if it's the fiber, fructose or because they are not ripe enough. I've also decided to drop the salt shake. I will get enough from the baking soda when I bake and from bread, olives, condiments, cheeses and deli meats.

Also, I could have a problem with uric acid as well as lactic acid. Over the weekend, I started having pain again on my big toe joint. Gout is associated with elevated uric acid. I also often have lightly swollen feet at the end of the day.

It's not the first time I have been drawn to the uric acid/gout theory.

An alkaline diet (fruits/veggies) greatly improve uric acid excretion by the kidneys through the urine. +1 for Ehrett/Morse.

Black tea looks like it can help. I will experiment with this.
Magnesium deficiency could be a factor as well. It's known that without adequate magnesium, other minerals are not retained as well.

I will be reading this paper about fructose increasing uric acid leading to metabolic syndrome since I seem to struggle with too much fructose:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...al_and_Dietary_Strategies_to_Reduce_Uric_Acid

And this on B deficiencies and uric acid:
Influence of Thiamine, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine, and Pantothenic Acid Deficiencies on Nitrogen Metabolism
A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism

 

[somuch4food]

The tea turned out to be a bad idea. I also tried herbal teas, but I feel they affected me in a bad way.

In the last couple of days, I have been exploring histamine intolerance. It could bring further explanations to my experiences. I will need a few more days to see if it fits my reactions more than carotenoids.

I've found an interesting paper from the 20s detailing how histamine injections cause a drop in CO2 and plasma pH in dog creating a mild acidosis state: http://www.jbc.org/content/68/3/833.full.pdf

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Please bear with me it will be quite a long post, but you can skip to the end if you just want to get to the core of the subject.. I hope someone will help me with appropriate solutions or a better understanding as I don't have much time to research the subject at the moment.

I have reasons to believe that my health issues come from a chronic low grade acidosis state.

Long story

The first sign that I can associate with this phenomenon goes back to my teenage years. I always had poor cardiovascular capacity and would quickly be out of breath. Lactic acid also quickly built up in my muscle. This didn't stop me from enjoying sports though. I have really good coordination and am naturally skilled in sports. I also often got pain on either side of my abdomen whenever I ran or put too much effort.

Since then, I have suffered from fatigue, mild constipation, mild depression while still having the same problems while exercising.

I also had knee pain on and off since late teens.

My periods have always been painful and required some painkillers to get through the first few days.

I started my health journey in May of last year. My first changes involved reducing sugars and increasing colorful fruits and vegetables.

And I was rewarded with insomnia. [My 1 year old finally started sleeping the night and I found myself being the one that was now waking at night.] Depending on the night, I would have trouble falling asleep or I would wake in the middle of the night either for peeing, eating or just being plain awake and unable to fall back to sleep within a few minutes.

My focus was also bad during that time. I was unable to do much productive work. Interestingly, I had some of my best cardiovascular performances. I could still go full speed at the end of my hockey games. So, there was something at that time that I was doing right. I know I was eating more fresh food and less packaged food, I also was into Epsom salts baths.

I lost a lot of weight and strength. When I think back, I was not eating enough since I was still breastfeeding, but I was in the mindset that I needed to control food intake and that being hungry all the time is not normal and that I should restrict myself.

I then encountered Ray Peat and his unorthodox ideas during the summer and that threw me into a new loop. I started eating more again and tried to implement more of the staples (more sugar, fruits, dairy and salt) that are often mentioned. I got some improvements, especially mentally, but my insomnia did not resolve and blood sugar issues got way worse. I needed to eat all the time to feel ok and often crashed in the middle of the afternoon and had edema in my legs. This got me to my normal weight and strength again, thankfully. It also helped me get my period back. And amazingly, it was less painful, but subsequent ones were more painful.

Then in November, I got around to reading the low A thread and found an autism diet that was low in carotenoids. I always felt I related to autism while still being able to function within society. So, I thought why not give this a shot.

I started lowering my intake and saw improvements in sleep, focus and could sustain myself for longer hours without eating. I was feeling great and felt like I was finally out of this. But, the holidays got the better of me and I lost my balance by cheating one time too many because of social events.

Since then I have resumed low A, but haven’t found my groove back yet. So, I’m thinking there is one piece of the puzzle I’m missing.

What’s mostly different between the 2 low A diets is my breakfast. I have run out of maple syrup and so have stopped doing my homemade pancakes with baking soda/vinegar. I also eat oatmeal less often. Most of the time I have toasts with Nutella spread. I also ate more processed foods in the last few weeks.

I suspect acidosis since I have a couple of worsening episodes that involve acidifying:

I started using Magnesium Oil (chloride) each night during the summer and while it helped some symptoms after a few days, I got this anxious feeling after applying it.

Then, this winter, to help my dry skin, I soaked in a sea salt water bath and after about 20 minutes, I started to feel wired and I slept terribly.

As I eat more processed food, while still being low A, I stop getting better. A lot of preservatives are acidic, so that may be it.

Yesterday, I bought some electrolyte drink (mainly chloride bound minerals with citric acid and sodium bicarbonate) since I was feeling off. That was a terrible idea. I felt tired in the afternoon. My throat also started feeling sore and still is today. My motivation to make dinner was also non existent. And then, I couldn’t fall asleep when I went to bed for 3 hours (I ate a ton of fruits and at some point, I felt calmer and could sleep decently.

Whenever I get into that state, I’m more constipated, feel the need to urinate and eat more often and have way less energy. Edema appears when it gets real bad.

TLDR;

Symptoms: fatigue, abdominal pain, mild depression, mild constipation, lack of focus, insomnia, lactic acid buildup in muscles, frequent urination

Solutions that helped some: low A diet, Peating

Stuff that worsened it: repeated magnesium oil use, sea salt bath, electrolytes (citrate, chloride bound), processed foods

What I plan to do now to see if it helps: Fresh lemonade (citrus is said to be very alkalizing), baking some cake or cookies with baking soda and vinegar, more fruits including applesauce, reducing processed foods.

I'm looking for tips on the theory, possible solutions and what to watch out for. Links to easy to read articles are welcomed. I just don't have the time and energy right now to scavenge the Internet.

the assessment is correct.i read a review of nephrologists who made compelling arguments that the kidneys are specced to excretion of excess base,and not
of excess acid. i would advise to 2/d 2.5g of Sodium-or better potassiumbicarbonate.