The Confounding Factors Of The Low A Diet

[schultz]

You don't even know what foods he recommends and yet here you are laying judgements about his diet.

He did say "Correct me if I am wrong" in fairness. You didn't really correct him though, just scolded him.

It's vitamin D to vitamin A ratio! It's because you cut out milk! Only carotenoids can cause problems! Only retinol can cause problems! It's because of less fibre! It's because of more fibre! It's only because less PUFAs! It's only because more PUFAs!

You forgot low thyroid!

I would also like to discuss the detox symptoms that are experienced on the diet

One possibility is just the gut adjusting to the new foods in the diet. Ray says it can take a week for the gut to adjust to a daily carrot. I imagine changing the entire diet could have an effect like that.

Speaking of cheese, the orange colors are due to added carotenoids.

It's really annatto and not straight carotene (I assume you know this, but just for other people reading). The carotene in annatto is bixen. I'd be curious to know how it reacts in the body? Is it converted? Is it easily excreted?

 

[Spondive]

I am interested in lowering my vitamin A status. Limiting my consumption of high vitamin A foods seems to be a the logical place to start. I am looking for other things besides just diet.

Phosphatidylcholine and high doses of vitamin E might be helpful
Hypervitaminosis A - Wikipedia

High fiber foods and milk thistle might be helpful
How to Detox from an Overdose of Vitamin A

The Adverse Effects of Alcohol on Vitamin A Metabolism

From last article

In addition to the profound effect that chronic alcohol consumption has on hepatic retinoid levels, it also became apparent that alcohol impacted retinoid levels in extra-hepatic tissues. Interestingly, whereas alcohol consumption was shown to decrease hepatic retinoid levels, these levels are actually increased in extra-hepatic tissues, leading to the concept that alcohol stimulates the mobilization of hepatic retinoid stores to extra-hepatic tissues. To summarize the multiple studies which have investigated this phenomenon, there is evidence to suggest the chronic alcohol consumption increases tissues retinoid levels in specific brain regions, the colon, esophagus, kidney, lung, testes and trachea [18,19,20,21,22,27,40]. It is important to note that although all of the studies mentioned above were focused on the effects of chronic alcohol consumption, it is also known that acute ethanol exposure can affect tissue retinoid levels. Similar to the effects of chronic alcohol consumption, acute alcohol exposure has been shown to precipitate a decline in hepatic retinoid content, with a concomitant increase in extra-hepatic tissue retinoid levels (specifically serum, adipose, and kidney) [27,41,42].

 

[somuch4food]

Another key factor could be a lower histamine load. I was searching about this and many foods that are eliminated on a low histamine diet are also eliminated on a low A diet: dairy, wheat, processed foods, spinach, tomatoes, orange juice...

 

[Kartoffel]

Another key factor could be a lower histamine load. I was searching about this and many foods that are eliminated on a low histamine diet are also eliminated on a low A diet: dairy, wheat, processed foods, spinach, tomatoes, orange juice...

Orange juice increases histamine?

 

[somuch4food]

Orange juice increases histamine?

Citrus fruits are histamine liberators. In that sense, they increase histamine activity and exacerbate symptoms.

 

[Kartoffel]

Citrus fruits are histamine liberators. In that sense, they increase histamine activity and exacerbate symptoms.

Reference?

 

[Lynne]

Reference?

Widely availble information. Google is your friend.

 

[Andman]

Widely availble information. Google is your friend.

same as say...fish oil is super healthy because its all over the internet?

 

[Kartoffel]

Widely availble information. Google is your friend.

I couldn't find any study corroborating that statement.

 

[schultz]

Citrus fruits are histamine liberators. In that sense, they increase histamine activity and exacerbate symptoms.

Reference?

Widely availble information. Google is your friend.

I couldn't find any study corroborating that statement.

I didn't look very hard. I may not be using the correct search query. So far this is all I have found...

Effect of orange juice and tryptamine on the behavior and c-fos expression of Wistar rats. - PubMed - NCBI

which basically says if you inject a rat with orange juice extract it gets anxiety, just like when you inject it with tyramine.

and this one which was studying "nonspecific bronchial hyperactivity", which can be caused by histamine. They did measure the histamine in each subject and there was no meaningful change. This is the only paper I found where humans are drinking juice. Note that they warmed the juice before drinking.

The effect of fresh orange juice on bronchial hyperreactivity in asthmatic subjects. - PubMed - NCBI
Based on the results of our study, we have not found that fresh orange juice increases NSBH. We used warm orange juice to eliminate the effect of temperature as the studies by Wilson et al found that ice water ingestion caused a change in NSBH

and this one, which is talking about some kind of orange supplement (the chemicals in the orange) and not really orange juice. It's interesting none-the-less, even if it is not completely relevant.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ptr.2973
Citrus fruit consumption has been shown to be protective in a variety of human cancers and its intake is believed to play an important role in the prevention of cardiovascular and degenerative diseases (Silalahi, 2002). Red oranges are an important component of the so-called Mediterranean diet and they have been used by traditional medicine for their health protective properties, particularly to heal sore throat and cough, suggesting an interesting anti-inflammatory activity (Pieroni and Quave, 2005).

In this study, it was shown that a red orange complex (ROC) was able to decrease markedly the expression of membrane molecules (ICAM-1) and the release of inflammatory soluble factors (MCP-1 and IL-8) induced by IFN-γ and histamine in normal human keratinocyte cell line NCTC 2544, demonstrating anti-inflammatory activity on a keratinocyte cell model.

In conclusion, the results of the present research indicate that, compared with hydrocortisone, ROC exhibits more interesting anti-inflammatory properties, expressed by its capacity to counteract some proinflammatory effects induced by IFN-γ and histamine in the normal human keratinocyte cell line NCTC 2544.

 

[somuch4food]

I couldn't find any study corroborating that statement.

That's because it's not from mainstream medicine. It's mainly alternative medicine. Like the methylator or oxidizer stuff.

It's nonetheless interesting. I'm trying to piece together my puzzle.

 

[schultz]

That's because it's not from mainstream medicine. It's mainly alternative medicine. Like the methylator or oxidizer stuff.

It's nonetheless interesting. I'm trying to piece together my puzzle.

Oh okay. If you had told me that before I wouldn't have spent that time looking it up lol.

 

[kyle]

Liver, beef or cod, eggs, cheese...what do they have in common? High levels of b12.

That b12 and high levels of retinol appear to conincide in nature should say something about their purpose.

What's beef meat rich in? B12. The cows ruminent creates b12 which converts grass into retinol.

What is commonly deficient in hypothyroid people? B12.

One thing that thread is short on is the relevant blood work so who can actually say.

How do we know if they weren't just having trouble processing beta carotene from HYPO/B12 defficiency?

Many of them report eating more beef, high in b12 and also containing smaller quantities of vitamin A.

Maybe it's just me but it seems completely elementary and they may see improments bc of better utilization of vit A and b12.

As Alanis morisette once said, isn't it ironic.

 

[Lynne]

same as say...fish oil is super healthy because its all over the internet?

No, nothing like that, but I don't have time to find it for you.

 

[somuch4food]

One thing that thread is short on is the relevant blood work so who can actually say.

What would those be? Testing serum vit A is irrelevant because the body can store it. Then, we could test many other serum levels, but which one are relevant which one are not? I think it varies on individuals.

 

[somuch4food]

So, I've been researching histamine a bit. Some Peat best practices are certainly implicated in reducing histamine.

• The bacteria in yogurt/cheeses often produces histamine.
• Too much estrogen increases production of histamine and reduces the breakdown of histamine by reducing the DAO enzyme.
• Bacteria convert histidine to histamine, so anything aged can have more histamine. I wonder if histamine from food can be grouped with endotoxins.
  
• High histamine lowers both serotonin and dopamine.
• A study that links PUFA to histamine release when there's no alpha-tocopherol or glutathione to protect against the peroxidation:
  

  Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA: arachidonic and linoleic acid) release histamine from isolated purified rat serosal mast cells only in the presence of oxidizing systems such as phenobarbital-induced rat liver microsomes, prostaglandin-H-synthetase (PHS) or soybean lipoxygenase. The release of mast cell histamine by activated PUFA has a long time-course and the electron microscopical features are consistent with an exocytotic secretion in the case of arachidonic acid and cell lysis in the case of linoleic acid. The phenomenon is associated with a significant increase in malonyldialdehyde (MDA) and conjugated diene generation, suggesting a relationship between histamine release and membrane lipid peroxidation. The secretion of histamine was inhibited by anti-free radical interventions such as D-mannitol, reduced glutathione and alpha-tocopherol.

Helpful micronutrients:

• Adequate proteins
  
• B6, DAO precursor
  
• Vitamin C, natural antihistaminic
  
• Sea Salt, natural antihistaminic
  
• Quercetin, natural antihistaminic, mast cells activation inhibitor
  
• Zinc, B6 cofactor
  
• Selenium, mast cells activation downregulator
• Other DAO boosters: B12, Iron, Zinc, Phosphorus, Calcium, Magnesium, Saturated Fat

Sources:

• The Curious Link Between Estrogen and Histamine Intolerance
• https://healinghistamine.com/how-to...uction-of-the-histamine-degrading-dao-enzyme/
• Dear Mark: Histamine Intolerance | Mark's Daily Apple
• Histamine intolerance
• Histamine - Decreasing The Load On Your Body
• High Histamine
• https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/03/19/boost-your-dao-levels-to-fight-histamine/

NB: I've been experimenting with protein powders (whey and collagen) since I can't stomach a lot of meat. They seem to have some beneficial effects on me, but it's too early for anything definitive.

 

[somuch4food]

I'm finding more and more that there's something to most colored fruits and vegetables that doesn't agree with me at all. I chose to eat asparagus last week since I was finding them appealing and the result was insomnia and needing to eat all the time. I ate some clementines yesterday and also got insomnia, not as bad as asparagus though. Apart from that, the rest of my diet was pretty much the same.

I'm not fully 100% sure it's carotenoids though. I ate cantaloupe and liver pate Saturday and my sleep was actually decent. It could still be a fluke, the experimentation continues, but liver pate is still in for me. I have no reason to actually avoid it since I don't notice bad effects from it.

NB: The protein powders gave me cold-like symptoms (congestion and mucus production) that took me 2 weeks to figure out. So, they are out. I will be eating meat to desire and will probably hover on the low end of proteins requirements. It might not be a bad thing since low protein has been linked to longevity!

 

[somuch4food]

I'm now adding lower vitamin C as a possible confounding factor. Removing a lot of vitamin C rich fruits and veggies and cutting most fruit juices would result in a lower vitamin C intake unless someone purposefully try to intake more vitamin C.

I'm finding I react badly to vitamin supplements containing ascorbic acid. I also do worse on orange juice or vitamin C fortified juices.

 

[Xisca]

I went low A with him in November to try to get rid of his eczema. It worked, but with this experience I'm thinking it's more carotenoids that were a problem and that those were displacing vitamin A. He had a high carotenoids diet since he started to eat.

YES same conclusion for me.
I kept eggs and fats but ditched greens and carrots.

And I have found an article, I think from weston price foundation about carotenoid dispalcing vitA.

Also, Grant's diet is quite low in oxalate... The white beans have less, like Lima. Black eyed peas also have less. Kidney beans and soy are some of the worse.
Rice is low ox but potatoes are not.... the lowest are the ones with red skin.

 

[Xisca]

I'm now adding lower vitamin C as a possible confounding factor. Removing a lot of vitamin C rich fruits and veggies and cutting most fruit juices would result in a lower vitamin C intake unless someone purposefully try to intake more vitamin C.

I'm finding I react badly to vitamin supplements containing ascorbic acid. I also do worse on orange juice or vitamin C fortified juices.

You can be part of the people who make oxalate from ascorbic acid... It is not the case for everybody but still happens to a few persons in the try low oxalate group.