Taking Enzymes To Lyse Plaque, BP Rising, WBC, Urinating A Lot-Frustrated

[yerrag]

I've never denied your infection, my point is that adopting the mindset of an infected person through reinforcement makes you prone to take more uncalculated measures. It starts to be all about lysing to the detriment of the rest. In my arrongant opinion, before enzyme medication, the first questioning should be how these are metabolized and affect normal tissues, which you didn't investigate.

¿
It's puzzling how you shun such a relevant article.

Well, here's one case that had them elevated:
- Administration of serratiopeptidase lead to increase in spread of space infection

Sometimes chronic infections are best dealt with slowly and interventions of this kind just as an adjuvant therapy to your immunity (which is supposed to do most of the work). An example is the C. pneumoniae protocol that requires low doses of doxycycline over a longer period. Perhaps something similar applies to these enzymes so that they don't become overwhelming.

Sorry that I lost sight of the very useful and helpful part of what you were telling me Amazoniac.

What you are saying affirms what I had learned the hard way using proteolytic enzymes recently. The gentler lysing using Zymessence- a blend - than using straight serrapeptidase- in a large dose especially - have far different effects.

There is nothing wrong with using these enzymes in and of itself, it's in how they are used. With better knowledge and experience, I can use them in a better way. Knowing that bacteria is released as the lysing of plaque is occurring, accompanying the enzyme intake with antibiotic would be very helpful.

I would like to say that the use of enzymes to lyse plaque is not the first approach I would recommend anyone to take. In problem solving, start with the easier solutions. If the easier solutions are given enough time to do their work and still don't, the possibility of plaque shouldn't be ignored. This is my situation.

Not all plaque are like mine. Mine happens to be the result of chronic bacterial infection from a periodontal infection left untreated for 15+ years because it was not detected all that time. This plaque harbors bacteria.

Both the plaque and the bacteria contribute to my hypertension. The plaque constricts blood flow and also lowers blood volume. The bacteria causes the immune system to rob nitric oxide needed for vasodilation- in order to protect the body from the more immediate harm.

Not all plaque have bacteria accompanying them. They are easier to deal with. In all likelihood, these kind of plaque may be removed more easily. And maybe even in a faster way with a stronger enzyme dose- with none of the effects I experienced. No strong immune response. No excessive urination.

But caution is needed. Paying close attention to signs is important. In my case, I monitored my WBC, neutrophils, and RDW - all available from an old-fashioned blood test called CBC. And because it's not expensive, I can do a weekly monitoring of it. I could do it daily very affodably as well, but I don't want my veins needled that much.

I'm not sure in what manner I would take antibacterials to get an effective dose without it becoming excessive and elicit another untoward response, so if you can help with some suggestions I would appreciate it.

I called it antibacterial instead of. antibiotics, because I don't want to exclude natural. antibiotics such as oil of oregano or colloidal silver, but doxycycline and minocycline is on top of my list.

 

[Amazoniac]

Sorry that I lost sight of the very useful and helpful part of what you were telling me Amazoniac.

What you are saying affirms what I had learned the hard way using proteolytic enzymes recently. The gentler lysing using Zymessence- a blend - than using straight serrapeptidase- in a large dose especially - have far different effects.

There is nothing wrong with using these enzymes in and of itself, it's in how they are used. With better knowledge and experience, I can use them in a better way. Knowing that bacteria is released as the lysing of plaque is occurring, accompanying the enzyme intake with antibiotic would be very helpful.

I would like to say that the use of enzymes to lyse plaque is not the first approach I would recommend anyone to take. In problem solving, start with the easier solutions. If the easier solutions are given enough time to do their work and still don't, the possibility of plaque shouldn't be ignored. This is my situation.

Not all plaque are like mine. Mine happens to be the result of chronic bacterial infection from a periodontal infection left untreated for 15+ years because it was not detected all that time. This plaque harbors bacteria.

Both the plaque and the bacteria contribute to my hypertension. The plaque constricts blood flow and also lowers blood volume. The bacteria causes the immune system to rob nitric oxide needed for vasodilation- in order to protect the body from the more immediate harm.

Not all plaque have bacteria accompanying them. They are easier to deal with. In all likelihood, these kind of plaque may be removed more easily. And maybe even in a faster way with a stronger enzyme dose- with none of the effects I experienced. No strong immune response. No excessive urination.

But caution is needed. Paying close attention to signs is important. In my case, I monitored my WBC, neutrophils, and RDW - all available from an old-fashioned blood test called CBC. And because it's not expensive, I can do a weekly monitoring of it. I could do it daily very affodably as well, but I don't want my veins needled that much.

I'm not sure in what manner I would take antibacterials to get an effective dose without it becoming excessive and elicit another untoward response, so if you can help with some suggestions I would appreciate it.

I called it antibacterial instead of. antibiotics, because I don't want to exclude natural. antibiotics such as oil of oregano or colloidal silver, but doxycycline and minocycline is on top of my list.

Mistake me if I'm right, but your post had nothing to do with hypocrites who quote Hippocrite in archaic english praising food as medicine and disdaining supplements while salting their meal.


Elevated neutrophils can be due to inflammation in general, but since this enzyme is supposed to help in resolving it..

The role of serratiopeptidase in the resolution of inflammation​

..the idea of having an infection involved is reinforced. What I would start wondering is if it's (i) the body encasing it, (ii) there are microbes attempting to evade immunity, or it's just having (iii) difficulty cleaning up the leftover mess for some reason.

If it's the first, we return to the excess supplementation butchering/sawing uncontrollably the problem that the body is trying to contain to prevent its spread (as in the abscess cases). This one in particular deserves the most care since it's being arrested on purpose, it was a tool employed by your own immunity to keep it under control, and if it was able to deal with all at once, this wouldn't happen.

The second, makes more sense to be harsher because the infection could be shielding itself faster than the competence of your immunity, so a help will be welcome. Yet, here you still run the risk of spreading it undesirably.

Regarding the last, I'm mentioning so that the possibility is not excluded. In this case you can be the harshest provided that you don't overwhelm the capability to repair; the enzyme doesn't have a selective effect after all. A lot of debris being mobilized at once might elicit inflammation as if there was an active infection, but suppressing inflammation directly not only will not be risky but might be beneficial.

There can be a combination of these, so it's preferable to ramp up to tolerance rather than lower after a shock. I would not abscesI mean, obsess too much about this approach and place all bets on it; assuming it's working as expected, it should be just an aid, a bromelaid.


When you find out how the enzyme is metabolized, you can make its peak coincide with measures that can protect you. For example, if it happens to reach maximum blood concentration (it's not tissues, but it's what's often available, it it will be nourishing them nevertheless) after 4 hours of dosing, if you supplement antidote C at the same time, it would be wearing off by the time the enzyme peaks.

When you get a clear picture of what's going on and gain confidence over the situation, tissue remodeling and immunity are increased along with metabolic rate, therefore you can get a monster boost in effect if you induce hyperthermia at the time that the enzyme is the most active. Heat lamps or caffeine (theobromine?) will does the trick. The lamps will have an effect on nitric oxide in a convenient moment.


Speaking of antidote C, it's difficult to think that selenium requirements won't be greater when supplementing it in stressful times, especially because (as you know) glutathiod participates in its recycling. Selenium pairs really well with magnesium, and consistency is more important than drowing oneself in it. When sufficient, the foul smell intensifies, so the guru should be able to gauge adequacy through this. The person might do better on cellulose, rice, or magnesium stearate as excipients.

It's also worth paying attention to copper and manganese because their needs will probably increase. In my opinion it's only worth considering zinc supplementation if the diet provides plenty of those two.
Iodine and chlorine (Pierre Delbet's magnesium chloride) play a rôle in immunity, so there's magnesium, Koch's calcium, but really all electrolytes must be useful to go up.

 

[yerrag]

..the idea of having an infection involved is reinforced. What I would start wondering is if it's (i) the body encasing it, (ii) there are microbes attempting to evade immunity, or it's just having (iii) difficulty cleaning up the leftover mess for some reason.

If it's the first, we return to the excess supplementation butchering/sawing uncontrollably the problem that the body is trying to contain to prevent its spread (as in the abscess cases). This one in particular deserves the most care since it's being arrested on purpose, it was a tool employed by your own immunity to keep it under control, and if it was able to deal with all at once, this wouldn't happen.

The second, makes more sense to be harsher because the infection could be shielding itself faster than the competence of your immunity, so a help will be welcome. Yet, here you still run the risk of spreading it undesirably.

Regarding the last, I'm mentioning so that the possibility is not excluded. In this case you can be the harshest provided that you don't overwhelm the capability to repair; the enzyme doesn't have a selective effect after all. A lot of debris being mobilized at once might elicit inflammation as if there was an active infection, but suppressing inflammation directly not only will not be risky but might be beneficial.

There can be a combination of these, so it's preferable to ramp up to tolerance rather than lower after a shock. I would not abscesI mean, obsess too much about this approach and place all bets on it; assuming it's working as expected, it should be just an aid, a bromelaid.

I really have a hard time understanding you but forgive me if I don't parse your meaning well enough, but reading the link, I can say that serrapeptidase can be anti-inflammatory where no infection vector is involved, but when there is an infectious element in it, it certainly can work better with the help of antibiotics.

I don't understand exactly what you mean by the body encasing the infection, and I don't see how serrapeptidase would initiate such an action. Besides, why would the body encasing the infection be inflammatory? It would likely turn the encasement action into a cyst, where the infection becomes dormant. More likely it is the contrary taking effect- what the lysing of the plaque is doing - releasing an encased infection (as the plaque matrix and biofilm is busted) and making a dormant bacteria into an active one, and causing an inflammatory response from the activation of the innate immune system. If this were the case, having an antibiotic to quell the infection would be helpful.

As to the second possibility you mention - of microbes attempting to evade immunity - the above paragraph speaks to that possibility. The risk of the bacteria getting out of control is a possibility, so it is a matter of blending the dosage - not too high a dose of serrapeptidase and not too low a dose of antibiotics.

As to the last, it is my experience that with the use of my 360,000 SPU dosage daily what you are saying has actually occurred. A lower dosage of serrapeptidase would be in order. And not only that, I would give away to using the proteolytic blend ZymEssence for my daily intake, and simply use serrapeptidase once every 2 days. This allows for the ZymEssence to clean up the mostly cysteine-based debri, leaving the serine-based leftover structure to be eaten up by serrapeptidase.

As for the approach of ramping up to tolerance, I hear you there. In fact that was the plan, but I guess I must have overshot it.

When you find out how the enzyme is metabolized, you can make its peak coincide with measures that can protect you. For example, if it happens to reach maximum blood concentration (it's not tissues, but it's what's often available, it it will be nourishing them nevertheless) after 4 hours of dosing, if you supplement antidote C at the same time, it would be wearing off by the time the enzyme peaks.

When you get a clear picture of what's going on and gain confidence over the situation, tissue remodeling and immunity are increased along with metabolic rate, therefore you can get a monster boost in effect if you induce hyperthermia at the time that the enzyme is the most active. Heat lamps or caffeine (theobromine?) will does the trick. The lamps will have an effect on nitric oxide in a convenient moment.


Speaking of antidote C, it's difficult to think that selenium requirements won't be greater when supplementing it in stressful times, especially because (as you know) glutathiod participates in its recycling. Selenium pairs really well with magnesium, and consistency is more important than drowing oneself in it. When sufficient, the foul smell intensifies, so the guru should be able to gauge adequacy through this. The person might do better on cellulose, rice, or magnesium stearate as excipients.

It's also worth paying attention to copper and manganese because their needs will probably increase. In my opinion it's only worth considering zinc supplementation if the diet provides plenty of those two.
Iodine and chlorine (Pierre Delbet's magnesium chloride) play a rôle in immunity, so there's magnesium, Koch's calcium, but really all electrolytes must be useful to go up.

I'll keep these in mind, thanks.

I'll have the nutrients to help me go through this. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, NAC (for glutathione), as well as some selenium. And to be sure, to not be deficient in zinc and copper and manganese, through food.

----

I'm taking a break though from supplementing with enzymes. During this time, I'll be getting my supply of antibiotics - minocycline instead of doxycycline. I've received an ounce of oil of oregano to get some synergistic action with mincocyline.

I'm still having leftover effects of frequent urination, though it has tapered down. I had a CBC test and still shows my immune system at a higher level in the form of wbc and neutrophils, and I won't resume my protocol until after these markers go back down to where it was before I started enzyme supplementation.

One thing that worsened that worries me is that my RDW has increased from 13.1 to 13.7, which exceeded my previous high of 13.5. The increase could be the debri from lysing that with enzymes that hasn't been thoroughly dissolved. I'm not sure how to address this, but I think when I resume enzyme supplementation, I can start with a low dose of serrapeptidase, low enough to not lyse new plaque at a torrid rate but high enough to be able to lyse these debri and clear up the capillary cross-sectional area. I'm not surprised at this happening though. I somewhat expected this to happen. I had experienced something similar as a plant manager. I descaled the plant's cooling system, and it unclogged a lot of scale, but debris clooged up the reactor's cooling coils, and because of that I got a lot of flak. I didn't lose my job though, thankfully. So, I was ready now for this, which was why I had to monitor myself carefully.

 

[Amazoniac]

I really have a hard time understanding you but forgive me if I don't parse your meaning well enough, but reading the link, I can say that serrapeptidase can be anti-inflammatory where no infection vector is involved, but when there is an infectious element in it, it certainly can work better with the help of antibiotics.

I don't understand exactly what you mean by the body encasing the infection, and I don't see how serrapeptidase would initiate such an action. Besides, why would the body encasing the infection be inflammatory? It would likely turn the encasement action into a cyst, where the infection becomes dormant. More likely it is the contrary taking effect- what the lysing of the plaque is doing - releasing an encased infection (as the plaque matrix and biofilm is busted) and making a dormant bacteria into an active one, and causing an inflammatory response from the activation of the innate immune system. If this were the case, having an antibiotic to quell the infection would be helpful.

As to the second possibility you mention - of microbes attempting to evade immunity - the above paragraph speaks to that possibility. The risk of the bacteria getting out of control is a possibility, so it is a matter of blending the dosage - not too high a dose of serrapeptidase and not too low a dose of antibiotics.

As to the last, it is my experience that with the use of my 360,000 SPU dosage daily what you are saying has actually occurred. A lower dosage of serrapeptidase would be in order. And not only that, I would give away to using the proteolytic blend ZymEssence for my daily intake, and simply use serrapeptidase once every 2 days. This allows for the ZymEssence to clean up the mostly cysteine-based debri, leaving the serine-based leftover structure to be eaten up by serrapeptidase.

As for the approach of ramping up to tolerance, I hear you there. In fact that was the plan, but I guess I must have overshot it.

They imply that it can help to resolve it either way, for example by recruiting immune cells to the compromised region and regulating their migration.

Even though they suggest that it has a selective effect in dissolution, I wouldn't be trusting this because it led to those adverse events. Perhaps such effect is just normal tissues being more energized and able to keep it out.

Is their mentioned peak after 1 h of dosing in agreement with other sources? References 41 and 52 are the same, not sure why.

Regarding your second paragraph, that's what I meant: the body attempting to contain the problem for not being able to handle it properly at the moment and the enzyme doing the opposite in bursting it, which is why it's the most riskiest possibility.

 

[yerrag]

Even though they suggest that it has a selective effect in dissolution, I wouldn't be trusting this because it led to those adverse events. Perhaps such effect is just normal tissues being more energized and able to keep it out.

I still believe the enzymes have a selective effect. Were there no biofilms involved, no increased immune reaction would have transpired, and I would not have been alarmed. This may be the case for plaque resulting from other causes - such as PUFAs turning into cholesteryl esters, or calcification. But because there was bacteria released from biofilm disruption from the type of plaque I have, formed from a chronic bacterial infection from periodontitis, it would not be correct to say that the enzymes were not selective. It is more accurate to say the enzymes are not to be blamed for not having an antibiotic effect. The takeaway here is that for my kind of plaque, it would be better if I accompanied the use of enzymes with some antibiotics.

Is their mentioned peak after 1 h of dosing in agreement with other sources? References 41 and 52 are the same, not sure why.

Good point. I should take that into account. It would be good to time the antibiotic and vitamin C intake, as well as selenium, and even NAC (for the glatathione) in close proximity, in the absence of more definite data.

Regarding your second paragraph, that's what I meant: the body attempting to contain the problem for not being able to handle it properly at the moment and the enzyme doing the opposite in bursting it, which is why it's the most riskiest possibility.

I think that the neutrophils re-forming plaque at the sites where lysing has occurred and is exposing the endothelial lining where bacteria is abundant, is a method of containing the infection. While this is a positive, it is also making the removal of plaque more difficult as it is going against my objective of removing plaque. If this keeps on going, I will not see any significant plaque reduction and my efforts will be in vain.

 

[Amazoniac]

I still believe the enzymes have a selective effect. Were there no biofilms involved, no increased immune reaction would have transpired, and I would not have been alarmed. This may be the case for plaque resulting from other causes - such as PUFAs turning into cholesteryl esters, or calcification. But because there was bacteria released from biofilm disruption from the type of plaque I have, formed from a chronic bacterial infection from periodontitis, it would not be correct to say that the enzymes were not selective. It is more accurate to say the enzymes are not to be blamed for not having an antibiotic effect. The takeaway here is that for my kind of plaque, it would be better if I accompanied the use of enzymes with some antibiotics.

But just because it's acting on plaques, doesn't mean normal tissues aren't being acted upon as well.

They usually recommend people to take it with meals, right? Is it to gimitate the effect on the digestive tract? In thy case, if it's releasin' yerms in the bloodystream, having plenty of nutrients from a meal circulating doesn't seem a good move, it's preferable to let it act on a semi-fast'd state as long as you can prevent the irritation and can remain nourished on reserves.

Exercise increases NAD+ without input, I'm not sure if it has to be strenous, but I don't think so ('nad exercise "low intensity"'); Juan might know. When the enzyme is doing its job, it's safer to focus on strategies that can improve the efficiency of utilization so that there are no leftovers for infections to thrive.
- Disruption Of Nerve Functioning Is A Necessary Factor In Progression Of Inflammatory Conditions

Is your cholesterol level adequate?
- Hypolipidemia, Low Cholesterol, And The Art Of Being Hormoneless

 

[yerrag]

But just because it's acting on plaques, doesn't mean normal tissues aren't being acted upon as well.

That's not how these enzymes work. If you understand the mechanism of action, you won't need to gunk up the process of troubleshooting with fears that can only hinder progress. If I should be wrong, it's not a catastrophic error. Go to Plan B, C. The alphabet won't be exhausted.

They usually recommend people to take it with meals, right? Is it to gimitate the effect on the digestive tract? In thy case, if it's releasin' yerms in the bloodystream, having plenty of nutrients from a meal circulating doesn't seem a good move, it's preferable to let it act on a semi-fast'd state as long as you can prevent the irritation and can remain nourished on reserves.

These are not intended to be digestive enzymes. Should be taken away from meals.

Exercise increases NAD+ without input, I'm not sure if it has to be strenous, but I don't think so ('nad exercise "low intensity"'); Juan might know. When the enzyme is doing its job, it's safer to focus on strategies that can improve the efficiency of utilization so that there are no leftovers for infections to thrive.
- Disruption Of Nerve Functioning Is A Necessary Factor In Progression Of Inflammatory Conditions

Unnecessary exercise is a distraction. Just be active. Do things. Walk. Move. Don't shy from labor. Don't keep using labor saving devices. I wish I have time to go to gym and do workout, but I won't have time then to read all your links that come my way.

Working out won't lower my hypertension. Reading and experimenting and learning from it will eventually cure me of it. I chose the latter over the former. That's my plan, no matter how much doctors sell the idea of exercise while they supply patients with toxic drugs.

Gyms galore in this country. Iron man decathlon as well. Yet people are so desperate for health insurance. And still, make America great is the slogan, not healthy!

Is your cholesterol level adequate?
- Hypolipidemia, Low Cholesterol, And The Art Of Being Hormoneless

Always adequate.

Body is metabolically capable of withstanding the stress from the bacterial load embedded in my plaque. Body has adapted to the condition in the best way it can. Using its energy to keep the infection under control. Prioritizing resources to it. Even downregulating metabolism to protect me from oxidative stresses of respiration that can be low enough to be countered by my lowered antioxidant level/stores, levels that have been lowered by the demands of the low level inflammation from the presence of infection in my vasculature.

I am on protective inhibition. By fixing the infection, my metabolism can go back to being geared towards development. My metabolism can be up-regulated eventually.

Until then, eliminating hypertension would be part of improving my energy metabolism as well as eliminating the causes of why my energy is misallocated towards dealing with a pathological condition.

Lysing plaque with enzymes concurrent with killing the bacteria that comes online from disintegrating plaque is the strategy.

That is the tricky part.

Btw, cholesterol is also an antibiotic. So having an adequate amount is helpful.

 

[Amazoniac]

That's not how these enzymes work. If you understand the mechanism of action, you won't need to gunk up the process of troubleshooting with fears that can only hinder progress. If I should be wrong, it's not a catastrophic error. Go to Plan B, C. The alphabet won't be exhausted.

These are not intended to be digestive enzymes. Should be taken away from meals.

- Production Of Fibrinolytic Enzyme By The Marine Isolate Serratia Marcescens Subsp. Sakunensis And Its In-Vitro Anticoagulant And Thrombolytic Potential

"The enzyme Serratiopeptidase, is a multifunctional enzyme with potent fibrinolytic activity in addition to its anti-inflammatory, caseinolytic and gelatinolytic properties and is primarily administered as a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug[29]."​

For it to act, it has to be adsorbed intact as peptide. The reference above is the review posted here. Both (casein and gelatin) can be used to determine its activity, so why could it not affect other proteins in the body, such as mucosal lining or collagenous structures? While it makes sense to avoid protein in the meal to not degrade it, one that's easily digested and poor in protein might help to protect the digestive tract after the coating is broken down.

Unnecessary exercise is a distraction. Just be active. Do things. Walk. Move. Don't shy from labor. Don't keep using labor saving devices. I wish I have time to go to gym and do workout, but I won't have time then to read all your links that come my way.

Working out won't lower my hypertension. Reading and experimenting and learning from it will eventually cure me of it. I chose the latter over the former. That's my plan, no matter how much doctors sell the idea of exercise while they supply patients with toxic drugs.

Gyms galore in this country. Iron man decathlon as well. Yet people are so desperate for health insurance. And still, make America great is the slogan, not healthy!

I wasn't thinking in these terms. It was actually a bout close to taking it so that nutrients are used up and there's not much hanging around in circulation when it's acting.

 

[yerrag]

For it to act, it has to be adsorbed intact as peptide. The reference above is the review posted here. Both (casein and gelatin) can be used to determine its activity, so why could it not affect other proteins in the body, such as mucosal lining or collagenous structures? While it makes sense to avoid protein in the meal to not degrade it, one that's easily digested and poor in protein might help to protect the digestive tract after the coating is broken down.

No question about what it can do. Even @CLASH told me about excess of it could eat lessen mucus to the point where it makes the mucosal lining lose its ability to trap foreign particles and pathogens, and I actually felt those same effects. There are many things you can do to complicate the simple act of taking proteolytic enzymes, such as accompanying it with protein to dampen its effect. Or you could use the appropriate dosage. "The dose makes the poison" is a familiar phrase going back to old times.

In the serrapeptase thread of ecstatichamster, no one seems to have experienced anything other than some minor effects, even after taking much larger amounts. Perhaps it's because I went the extra mile to monitor with blood tests, and it raised a can of worms. Maybe it's better to hear no evil, see no evil? (Certainly not.)

On the other hand, being more scientific and using tests to have a more objective way of assessing effects would put more things under the microscope, and an uncomfortable yet enlightening and productive discussion could ensue, It may put me under the harsh light of persistent interrogation, and expose me to tons of research in the links thrown my way - a much appreciated inconvenience, in which I find the labor to be strenous, but perhaps even a magnitude more so for the worker bee.

I wasn't thinking in these terms. It was actually a bout close to taking it so that nutrients are used up and there's not much hanging around in circulation when it's acting.

Good points. I'll use these points as I plan my way back to treating my hypertension.

I'm hopeful because I can see a resolution to it. I also see the coherence in it. I can see how hypertension is an adaptation to a pathologically-induced state. Originating and existing as a chronic bacterial burden, held at length by the innate immune system with the activity of white blood cells, especially neutrophils, and by the plaque it forms. The lower internal volume of the vasculature, caused by plaque displacing the volume for blood, and by the vasoconstriction of blood vessels, caused by low nitric oxide (due to its production being curtailed due to needed substrates and enzymes being diverted for the constant respiratory burst activity of phagocytosis directed at bacterial pathogens), together cause blood pressure to rise.

The low metabolic rate, as experienced in lower heart rate, is the result of the wisdom of the body down-regulating mitochondrial respiration to a rate than does not harm the body. There is a rate the body considers optimally protective for me, but not optimally developmental for me. At this rate, enough energy is produced to maintain a normal temperature, as well as maintain immunity levels such that I can overcome most of the daily pathogenic and allergy-inducing insults at me. I have not had flu for the past 20 years (where before once a year is common), and in the past 2 years, I have experienced no allergies, of which rhinitis was common before Peating. Barring external disturbances, I have no trouble sleeping and maintaining my level of health. The body puts a brake on my metabolism though, because any higher would result in my body's antioxidant system reserves being unable to cope with the higher rate of oxidative stress production that come naturally with mitochondrial respiration, where free radicals are produced.

I now see the bacterial presence in the biofilm (embedded and encased in plaque, and sandwiched between the intima (of endothelial linings) and plaque) as my scourge. It used to be an invisible one, still unseen but metaphysically present now, in the light of knowledge and reasoning, but now I see it as why I age the way I do, at the accelerated rate that makes me seemingly helpless to arrest the decaying and eroding influence of time. If I were to lyse the plaque as well as the bacteria it both dampens and harbors, I would be taking away an energy sink from my system. With energy no longer wasted in constantly keeping at bay bacteria, not only would energy be better allocated towards development, the body would also be producing more energy, as there would be increased antioxidant stores in the body to counter the increased production of free radicals that come with increased mitochondrial respiratory energy production.

I've already seen how it would make my arthritic condition and seborrheic dermatitis go into a dormant mode when I was taking doxycycline, at which point my wbc and neutrophils were lowered. I can see them going away. Not only that, there would be more energy to grow my hair. And there would be more availability of nitric oxide for virility.

This is my take of Peat's idea of coherence. I don't need to imagine each suboptimal condition in my body as separate boxes for specialist doctors to treat as islands of shitholes, I just need to see my body as a whole and fix it as a whole.

 

[yerrag]

Sorry if my answer is not aligned with your view (to be honest, I don't have by far your level of knowledge about this topic) about your disease, but I'd like to get back to dry fasting (everything looks like a nail when you only have a hammer) and my thoughts about your case, as it has shown to powerfully lower your blood pressure, and sorry if it's total garbage

During my research about dry fasting, I found that it is (in particular, dehydration and hyperosmotic stress) connected with a transcription factor called NFAT5 which is itself connected with the immune system and a lot of other things (including hypertension if I'm not mistaken, Role of NFAT5 in Inflammatory Disorders Associated with Osmotic Stress, "Conversely, blocking NFAT5 or VEGF-C signalling aggravates hypertension. Thus, NFAT5–VEGF-C signalling in skin macrophages is a major determinant of extracellular volume and hence blood pressure homeostasis under conditions of high salt intake", Emerging new role of NFAT5 in inducible nitric oxide synthase in response to hypoxia in mouse embryonic fibroblast cells. - PubMed - NCBI, "expression of iNOS induced by hypoxia is dependent on NFAT5").

NFAT5 is a protein that tends to amplify the immune system response (for example, Regulation of Inflammatory Functions of Macrophages and T Lymphocytes by NFAT5) but not only. It also seems to have a role to play with fighting directly infections by improving autophagy of intracellular pathogens (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15548627.2019.1596483). As it has a role in the immune system, some pathogens (Coxsackie virus in this case) seem to target it and reduce its production for their own benefits, i.e. being able to maintain a persistent infection I guess (Cleavage of osmosensitive transcriptional factor NFAT5 by Coxsackieviral protease 2A promotes viral replication, " Our initial results demonstrated that although the mRNA level of NFAT5 remained constant during CVB3 infection, NFAT5 protein level decreased because the protein was cleaved."). Dehydration could also help by making the immune system to produce LL-37 (Osmolality controls the expression of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide in human macrophages, "Here we present the surprising finding that osmolality tightly controls the expression of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) in human macrophages. CAMP expression is strongly upregulated under hyperosmotic conditions and downregulated under hypoosmotic conditions. We also provide evidence that this osmolality-mediated antimicrobial response is dependent on nuclear factor of activated T-cells 5 (NFAT5)"), which seems to be an antimicrobial LPS-binding molecule that seems to prevent biofilm formation.

So I'm wondering if you could have an infection with a pathogen that reduces NFAT5 and lowers the efficiency of your immune system (so your body has to produce a lot of white blood cells to counteract their inefficiency?). NFAT5 deficiency and induced "immune deficiency" is a thing : "In this article, we describe a patient with a diagnosis of AIE who presented with symptoms of autoimmunity. Immunologic evaluation demonstrated defects in innate and adaptive immunity, whereas genetic testing revealed de novo haploinsufficiency of NFAT5. We confirmed that the patient had significantly impaired induction of NFAT5 mRNA and protein in response to osmotic stress." (Immunodeficiency and Autoimmune Enterocolopathy Linked to NFAT5 Haploinsufficiency).


Moreover, I think you mentionned oxidative metabolism in one of your post. Cells that are dehydrated should produce NFAT5 and uptake osmolytes in order to cope with the osmotic stress (Cell hydration and mTOR-dependent signalling. - PubMed - NCBI, "Similar to hyperosmolarity, amino acid starvation leads to cell shrinkage, and cell shrinkage was suggested to mediate certain responses to amino acid starvation, including stimulation of the tonicity-sensitive element binding protein (TonEBP == NFAT5) and stimulation of osmolyte transport."). Also, if I have properly understood what I have read, osmolytes could increase/improve the structure of the intracellular water.

If you believe this article (http://www.medicinacomplementar.com.br/biblioteca/pdfs/Cancer/ca-0417.pdf), which seems to consider some of the things that Ray Peat considers himself (structure of the water, inflammation as a cause of cancer), water structure seems to be essential for the metabolism of cells. The author displays studies showing that cancer cells seem to have less structured water than normal cells and that it is the reason for their irregular metabolism. The solution he presents is: to flush the cancer cells of unstructured water (which could happen if they shrink), and to supplement it with osmolytes. That seems to me similar to what could happen in case of dehydration.

This was an involved and long read. It's not easy to understand short of it being a gene that helps in dealing with osmotic stress, where osmolytes such as taurine can be made to be absorbed into the cell where it keeps the cell hydrated instead of shrinking in the face of high extracellular osmolality. That it also has a role to play in amplifying immune response by way of autophagy makes me ponder whether I am deficient in it.

I don't think I have an issue with NFAT5 though. Except for this recent episode of lysing plaque leading to high wbc and neutrophils, which was from my stimulating that response through excessive use of serrapeptidase, in regular conditions my immune system hasn't been ineffective. I'm able to go about my life with few interruptions by way of fevers, flus, cold, coughs, and allergies. And my wbc and neutrophils, while higher than optimal, is indicative of a low-level inflammation from having a constant but tolerable bacterial load in my vascular system.

I fail to see how this connects to my experience of lower blood pressure after a day of dry fasting though. Maybe you were trying to let me discover this connection, but I'm not able to see it. How are they connected?

And in bonus, for supporters of the germ theory of diseases:
A new model for chronic diseases (A new model for chronic diseases - ScienceDirect)
"In this speculative unifying model I set a new hypothesis for the etiology of the majority of chronic diseases. The main aim is to put order and observe our organism in a systemic way, connecting pathologies we now see as disconnected phenomena, with the conceptual frameworks of complex systems and network medicine.

Chronic diseases could be caused by a first unsolved acute infection. In case the pathogen cannot be completely eliminated, it becomes a persistent infectious. After the acute episode, some mild symptoms will occur and probably disappear; the chronic disease will remain latent over time. It will manifest even after years or decades, in the presence of another acute infection, a particular stress, trauma, or another event. The presence of the persistent infectious elicits changes in the immune and systemic regulation, and these processes degenerate over time. They will assume their rules and patterns, being independent from the initial stimulus. The key to understand the dynamics and individuality of chronic diseases is the immune system and its networks. The immune mechanisms that can lead to the persistent response are mainly the switch from the Th1 to the Th2 immunity and the molecular mimicry.

The first persistent infectious will also modify the susceptibility to other pathogens, facilitating new infections and new consequent persistent infectious."

I think my experience would align with this thinking. See my latest response to Amazoniac.

 

[LLight]

Sorry again, these are unordered thougths and probably not connected to your issue. Moreover, NFAT5 discovery is rather recent and not enough researched and understood.

If I have well followed your report about your experience with these enzymes, it showed a problematic response which could lead to think that your body may be keeping these pathogens at bay because it's not able to deal properly with it for the moment. You may have an inadapted immune response: if we consider this article about chronic diseases, it could be a drift from Th1 to Th2 based immunity. I think that it has been shown that NFAT5 shift the immune system toward Th1.

Regarding the decreased blood pressure during dry fasting, there could be more than just an increase of NFAT5 during it (which a deficiency was shown to reduce iNOS if I'm not mistaken). If I remember correctly, you said that you suspected that fat metabolism itself could help with your blood pressure issue. It could also be the reduced blood volume due to loss of fluid? It could also be a loss of salt due to lowered insulin.

 

[Amazoniac]

No question about what it can do. Even @CLASH told me about excess of it could eat lessen mucus to the point where it makes the mucosal lining lose its ability to trap foreign particles and pathogens, and I actually felt those same effects. There are many things you can do to complicate the simple act of taking proteolytic enzymes, such as accompanying it with protein to dampen its effect. Or you could use the appropriate dosage. "The dose makes the poison" is a familiar phrase going back to old times.

In the serrapeptase thread of ecstatichamster, no one seems to have experienced anything other than some minor effects, even after taking much larger amounts. Perhaps it's because I went the extra mile to monitor with blood tests, and it raised a can of worms. Maybe it's better to hear no evil, see no evil? (Certainly not.)

On the other hand, being more scientific and using tests to have a more objective way of assessing effects would put more things under the microscope, and an uncomfortable yet enlightening and productive discussion could ensue, It may put me under the harsh light of persistent interrogation, and expose me to tons of research in the links thrown my way - a much appreciated inconvenience, in which I find the labor to be strenous, but perhaps even a magnitude more so for the worker bee.


Good points. I'll use these points as I plan my way back to treating my hypertension.

I'm hopeful because I can see a resolution to it. I also see the coherence in it. I can see how hypertension is an adaptation to a pathologically-induced state. Originating and existing as a chronic bacterial burden, held at length by the innate immune system with the activity of white blood cells, especially neutrophils, and by the plaque it forms. The lower internal volume of the vasculature, caused by plaque displacing the volume for blood, and by the vasoconstriction of blood vessels, caused by low nitric oxide (due to its production being curtailed due to needed substrates and enzymes being diverted for the constant respiratory burst activity of phagocytosis directed at bacterial pathogens), together cause blood pressure to rise.

The low metabolic rate, as experienced in lower heart rate, is the result of the wisdom of the body down-regulating mitochondrial respiration to a rate than does not harm the body. There is a rate the body considers optimally protective for me, but not optimally developmental for me. At this rate, enough energy is produced to maintain a normal temperature, as well as maintain immunity levels such that I can overcome most of the daily pathogenic and allergy-inducing insults at me. I have not had flu for the past 20 years (where before once a year is common), and in the past 2 years, I have experienced no allergies, of which rhinitis was common before Peating. Barring external disturbances, I have no trouble sleeping and maintaining my level of health. The body puts a brake on my metabolism though, because any higher would result in my body's antioxidant system reserves being unable to cope with the higher rate of oxidative stress production that come naturally with mitochondrial respiration, where free radicals are produced.

I now see the bacterial presence in the biofilm (embedded and encased in plaque, and sandwiched between the intima (of endothelial linings) and plaque) as my scourge. It used to be an invisible one, still unseen but metaphysically present now, in the light of knowledge and reasoning, but now I see it as why I age the way I do, at the accelerated rate that makes me seemingly helpless to arrest the decaying and eroding influence of time. If I were to lyse the plaque as well as the bacteria it both dampens and harbors, I would be taking away an energy sink from my system. With energy no longer wasted in constantly keeping at bay bacteria, not only would energy be better allocated towards development, the body would also be producing more energy, as there would be increased antioxidant stores in the body to counter the increased production of free radicals that come with increased mitochondrial respiratory energy production.

I've already seen how it would make my arthritic condition and seborrheic dermatitis go into a dormant mode when I was taking doxycycline, at which point my wbc and neutrophils were lowered. I can see them going away. Not only that, there would be more energy to grow my hair. And there would be more availability of nitric oxide for virility.

This is my take of Peat's idea of coherence. I don't need to imagine each suboptimal condition in my body as separate boxes for specialist doctors to treat as islands of shitholes, I just need to see my body as a whole and fix it as a whole.

From what I read it's water-soluble, so it was supposed to go straight to the liver after adsorption. It's curious that (at least in rats) much lower doses are needed to be detectable in lymph than in blood.

 

[yerrag]

If I have well followed your report about your experience with these enzymes, it showed a problematic response which could lead to think that your body may be keeping these pathogens at bay because it's not able to deal properly with it for the moment. You may have an inadapted immune response: if we consider this article about chronic diseases, it could be a drift from Th1 to Th2 based immunity. I think that it has been shown that NFAT5 shift the immune system toward Th1.

I see it differently. The immune system is well-adapted. It just cannot overcome the bacteria as the bacteria can survive by being out of reach. Biofilms give bacteria the ability to survive and persist.

Regarding the decreased blood pressure during dry fasting, there could be more than just an increase of NFAT5 during it (which a deficiency was shown to reduce iNOS if I'm not mistaken). If I remember correctly, you said that you suspected that fat metabolism itself could help with your blood pressure issue. It could also be the reduced blood volume due to loss of fluid? It could also be a loss of salt due to lowered insulin.

I was thinking of relying more on fat metabolism for the wrong reason - that it would sidestep the need to use as much oxygen as sugar metabolism does, since I was assuming that I had hypoxia, which enables uric acid production. But it turns out that my uric acid levels are high mainly because I was excreting low amounts of uric acid in urine, which I suspect to be an adaptation of the body to increase antioxidant stores, of which uric acid is one. Therefore, I no longer consider relying on fat metabolism to be a solution.

My blood sugar is very well-regulated, so I don't think I have an insulin problem, so I don't even think low osmolality due to loss of salt would be a problem.

I could be dehydrated, but I only consider that a possibility since my RBC, Hgb, and Hct are above optimal levels. But it could just be that my blood volume is low only because plaque can displace the volume for blood to fill, and that my blood vessels are unable to dilate because of low nitric oxide production.

 

[yerrag]

From what I read it's water-soluble, so it was supposed to go straight to the liver after adsorption. It's curious that (at least in rats) much lower doses are needed to be detectable in lymph than in blood.

Is it glucoronidated by the liver? If so, or does the liver allow it to go past? Perhaps the potency is reduced going through the liver, so dosage is important so that what goes through isn't so insignificant to have very small effects.

 

[tara]

Hi Yerrag,

Have I understood right, that you are currently working based on the hypothesis that your high blood pressure is caused by arterial plaque, and that your only evidence for this plaque is that it is a possible result of chronic oral infection?
Do you have any evidence that you actually have much vascular plaque, or just that it is possible?

I do think it's possible that there could be plaque. Maybe oral infection has played a role, I don't know. Bacteria from oral infections have been known to mess with heart tissue before. There are some particular strains that have an affinity for both.
But I don't think it always happens, and I think there are other things that can happen with the cardiovascular system to generate high blood pressure, for instance to do with the elasticity and tone of the vessels, osmolarity, etc. So without some evidence I wouldn't be assuming it.

AIUI, one of the reasons plaques can occur is when there is damage to the blood vessel wall - it patches them.
An important way to reduce the risk of this is to provide them with all they need for strength and repair. Some of the other suggestions in this thread are relevant to these other possible causes.

before enzyme medication, the first questioning should be how these are metabolized and affect normal tissues

I don't know anything much about serrapeptase, other than that it can break things down. Is it known that it will not damage the vascular walls themselves? I think Amazoniac's question about what it does to other tissues is relevant. Even if you have plaques and an agent likely to be effective at breaking down plaques, it's important to know what that agent does to other tissues too. Suitable application of precautionary principle makes sense to me. First do no harm.

BTW, Kempner's rice diet was not just about eating rice regularly as part of the diet - IIRC, it was also about other things included and excluded from the rest of the diet. I'm not speaking for or against it, but it apparently did have positive effects for some people on a range of conditions including cardiovascular, not only blood sugar regulation. And for other people it was no use.

Good luck

 

[yerrag]

Hi Yerrag,

Have I understood right, that you are currently working based on the hypothesis that your high blood pressure is caused by arterial plaque, and that your only evidence for this plaque is that it is a possible result of chronic oral infection?
Do you have any evidence that you actually have much vascular plaque, or just that it is possible?

I do think it's possible that there could be plaque. Maybe oral infection has played a role, I don't know. Bacteria from oral infections have been known to mess with heart tissue before. There are some particular strains that have an affinity for both.
But I don't think it always happens, and I think there are other things that can happen with the cardiovascular system to generate high blood pressure, for instance to do with the elasticity and tone of the vessels, osmolarity, etc. So without some evidence I wouldn't be assuming it.

AIUI, one of the reasons plaques can occur is when there is damage to the blood vessel wall - it patches them.
An important way to reduce the risk of this is to provide them with all they need for strength and repair. Some of the other suggestions in this thread are relevant to these other possible causes.


I don't know anything much about serrapeptase, other than that it can break things down. Is it known that it will not damage the vascular walls themselves? I think Amazoniac's question about what it does to other tissues is relevant. Even if you have plaques and an agent likely to be effective at breaking down plaques, it's important to know what that agent does to other tissues too. Suitable application of precautionary principle makes sense to me. First do no harm.

BTW, Kempner's rice diet was not just about eating rice regularly as part of the diet - IIRC, it was also about other things included and excluded from the rest of the diet. I'm not speaking for or against it, but it apparently did have positive effects for some people on a range of conditions including cardiovascular, not only blood sugar regulation. And for other people it was no use.

Good luck

Thanks Tara.

I'm working off a set of assumptions that are well within reason and logic. This isn't my first attempt at lowering my blood pressure, and I consider myself the foremost authority on hypertension, as far as my body is concerned. I have been cautious, and continue to be cautious. And I have been able to recognize where my assumptions were wrong, and rethink my approach.

I have been advised to take blood pressure drugs in this forum, out of concern also, but I have been doing well despite being firm in not doing so. If I were to say taking blood pressure drugs is a precautionary approach, it would be a debatable thing. Taking enzymes that have been used by others with no dangerous repercussions, it's not like I'm blazing anew trail where I am a sacrificial lamb. I do intend to become better and not be forever in this forum working on my high blood pressure.

I know that people mean well by being a devils advocate. I consider their comments and suggestions. I read through all the links, no matter how many there are. I'm being open in this way and not pig-headed.

I am a man of reason and I just don't take something just because everyone says so, especially when I don't know the mechanism of action. I don't throw the kitchen sink at a problem. That is how I've been precautionary.

I had elaborated my reasons for making my conclusions and why I am now approaching my hypertension in the current manner. I do not have the benefit of certainty but have that of plausibility and probability. No one can offer me certainty either. Not doctors-even the naturopathic ones.

In the end, it is my knowing my context well enough not to be subsumed by the general context, nor someone else's context. And knowing enough of biochemistry, human physiology, as well as pathogens and toxins that affect it. And to be guided by Ray Peat's approach, valuing coherence.

I can talk endlessly and not make a dent. I may not be coherent enough in explaining how everything is glued together.

 

[rei]

How do you know you have plaque? Also, I am not sold on the high BP having many causes. Ultimately, high BP stems from vessel hardening and that is due primarily to cortisol/aldosterone/adrenaline. Plaque may be a co-morbidity but I am not sure it has much to do with high BP as a cause. If high BP had many causes then we would not have anti-adrenaline drugs like propranolol or clonidine reducing it in virtually all cases. Same goes for cortisol antagonists like progesterone and RU486.
Anyways, you know better about your blood vessel health but if the foal is to simply reduce BP I would focus on the known causes and tools and not jump on some exotic solution, which could be perfectly healthy but does not have much track record specifically for high BP.
Just my 2c.

From my experience this is not true, my BP was in the 165-185 range for over a decade and now that i went through months of chiropractic adjustment after the most significant spine alignment shifts it over hours to days came down to 120-125, not a realistic time span for softening of vessels... So to me it seems that impaired sympathetic/parasympathetic balance was the cause.

Anti-adrenaline drugs might very well "patch up" this imbalance, and propanolol is actually one of the first drugs i found very beneficial while progesterone now decades later is what started my healing transformation.

 

[Tarmander]

Thanks Tara.

I'm working off a set of assumptions that are well within reason and logic. This isn't my first attempt at lowering my blood pressure, and I consider myself the foremost authority on hypertension, as far as my body is concerned. I have been cautious, and continue to be cautious. And I have been able to recognize where my assumptions were wrong, and rethink my approach.

I have been advised to take blood pressure drugs in this forum, out of concern also, but I have been doing well despite being firm in not doing so. If I were to say taking blood pressure drugs is a precautionary approach, it would be a debatable thing. Taking enzymes that have been used by others with no dangerous repercussions, it's not like I'm blazing anew trail where I am a sacrificial lamb. I do intend to become better and not be forever in this forum working on my high blood pressure.

I know that people mean well by being a devils advocate. I consider their comments and suggestions. I read through all the links, no matter how many there are. I'm being open in this way and not pig-headed.

I am a man of reason and I just don't take something just because everyone says so, especially when I don't know the mechanism of action. I don't throw the kitchen sink at a problem. That is how I've been precautionary.

I had elaborated my reasons for making my conclusions and why I am now approaching my hypertension in the current manner. I do not have the benefit of certainty but have that of plausibility and probability. No one can offer me certainty either. Not doctors-even the naturopathic ones.

In the end, it is my knowing my context well enough not to be subsumed by the general context, nor someone else's context. And knowing enough of biochemistry, human physiology, as well as pathogens and toxins that affect it. And to be guided by Ray Peat's approach, valuing coherence.

I can talk endlessly and not make a dent. I may not be coherent enough in explaining how everything is glued together.

Hey man,

I hear you on the metabolic tunnel vision that sometimes goes on around here. Very useful at times, other times exasperating.

What do you think of these two articles?
The Man Who Cured Heart Disease With a Natural Molecule, 20 Years Before Cholesterol Drugs!

Heart Health & Chondroitin Sulfate

 

[Tarmander]

Hey man,

I hear you on the metabolic tunnel vision that sometimes goes on around here. Very useful at times, other times exasperating.

What do you think of these two articles?
The Man Who Cured Heart Disease With a Natural Molecule, 20 Years Before Cholesterol Drugs!

Heart Health & Chondroitin Sulfate

One more, a bit longer, but pretty cool: https://www.westonaprice.org/health...ol-sulfate-deficiency-coronary-heart-disease/

 

[yerrag]

Hey man,

I hear you on the metabolic tunnel vision that sometimes goes on around here. Very useful at times, other times exasperating.

What do you think of these two articles?
The Man Who Cured Heart Disease With a Natural Molecule, 20 Years Before Cholesterol Drugs!

Heart Health & Chondroitin Sulfate

One more, a bit longer, but pretty cool: https://www.westonaprice.org/health...ol-sulfate-deficiency-coronary-heart-disease/

Thanks Tarmander. Those could help - chondroitin sulfate and cholesteryl sulfate production. I'll have to add those in the future as a consideration.

It's also interesting that eNOS plays a role in cholesterol sulfate production, thru nitric oxide. I suspect that eNOS is currently directed towards enabling the respiratory burst in phagocytosis of bacteria ever present in the bacterial film intertwined with plaque. That being the case, nitric oxide production is inhibited along with cholesteryl sulfate production, and this has a large bearing on my blood pressure.