Taking Enzymes To Lyse Plaque, BP Rising, WBC, Urinating A Lot-Frustrated

[shepherdgirl]

This would limit the production of NADPH, which would eventually lead to poor NO to vasodilate the endothelial lining

Maybe you're right, although my understanding is that people have too much NO in general.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Found this:

Adrenal extract was apparently successful in dramatically relieving high blood pressure. I think it is possible they injected it.

Source: Education of Cancer Healing Vol. IX - The Best Of

 

[yerrag]

I posted this on another thread but thought it might be relevant:
IIRC Aldosterol can control the sphincter muscles in the eye. The pupil test is supposed to tell you if your aldosterone level is sufficient and/or indicate adrenal health.
Check out this website
for pupil test and aldosterone info.
Also check out Ray's paper: Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging

I looked at the instructions for doing the pupil test. I would attempt to do that except that I have already taken an aldosterone test. And the indication of that test is that that my aldosterone may be considered high, being at 22.4 ng/dL, with 15 being a cut-off for ruling out that possibility. To be certain, I have to take an ARR test (aldosterone renin ratio) and if the value is higher than 50, then I have primary aldosteronism, which means aldosterone is high. Since that test is $200, I'm not yet in a hurry to take that test.

I also took a G6PD deficiency test and from the tests, I'm not having a G6PD deficiency problem, and this means it is much less likely that high aldosterone is causing my hypertension.

This all leaves me to frontally attack the problem from the atherosclerotic plaque standpoint. For those interested, here's a study that would back up my observations: https://jeffreydachmd.com/wp-conten...-of-Atherosclerosis-Ravnskov-McCully-2012.pdf :

Abstract: There is a universal lack of exposure response between degree of lipid lowering and the outcome in clinical and angiographic trials questioning the current view on atherogenesis. However, there are numerous observations and experiments suggesting that microorganisms may play a causal role. A clue is the fact that the lipoproteins constitute an innate immune system by binding and inactivating microorganisms and their toxic products through formation of circulating complexes. Their size may increase in the presence of hyperhomocysteinemia because homocysteine reacts with low-density lipoprotein (LDL) to form homocysteinylated LDL aggregates. Autoantibodies against homocysteinylated or oxidized LDL may also enhance the aggregation. Because of the high extracapillary pressure, such aggregates may obstruct arterial vasa vasorum producing ischemia and cell death within the arterial wall leading to the creation of a vulnerable plaque. The many epidemiological observations, clinical findings and laboratory experiments that conflict with the cholesterol hypothesis are in good accordance with ours.

...The classical study of early atherosclerosis in young American soldiers killed in Korea is frequently cited as proof that atherosclerosis starts in early adulthood.14 In that study, 77.3% had gross evidence of coronary disease and 15% had more than 50% luminal narrowing. However, such severe changes have never been observed in autopsy studies of young people who have died from other causes. The explanation may be that many of these soldiers had severe, infected wounds before they died.
to
CONCLUSIONS The function of lipoproteins in the immune system has been ignored in the literature about lipids and atherosclerosis, although it may provide the key to understanding the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis. We suggest that aggregates formed between the lipoproteins and microbes and enlarged by antibodies against oxidized or homocysteinylated LDL may obstruct arterial vasa vasorum because of the high extracapillary tissue pressure. By this process, the arterial wall may become anoxic, leading to an accumulation of toxic substances and microorganisms in the arterial wall inciting the inflammatory response. The vulnerable plaque may simply be a microabscess, as first suggested by William Osler 100 years ago.
​

To give you an idea what I'm dealing with when it comes to opening this pandora's box which is the lysing of atherosclerotic plaque, which led me experience much higher blood pressure as well experiencing higher WBC and neutrophil count, and making me urinate so much:

If atherosclerosis is caused by microorganisms, vaccination or antibiotics should be able to prevent cardiovascular disease. Some randomized controlled trials have indeed shown benefit, either from influenza vaccination or from short-term antibiotic treatment, but just as many have failed. These results are not contradictory, because Ott et al20 have identified remnants of more than 50 bacterial species within atherosclerotic plaques and other investigators have found various virus species as well.21 It is unlikely that a single antibiotic used during a few weeks should be able to eliminate more than 50 different bacterial or viral species.
​

It is very hard to run counter to the culture of this forum, where saying something that strays from the metabolic theory of disease is seemingly automatically discounted. Here I present once again the infectious component to disease to which I once mentioned before pertaining to the topic of cancer. I really don't know whether silence and no reaction in this forum meant agreement or indifference or an unwillingness to discuss this. I have no way to tell how many people have gotten well in a major way in our forum, but I would hope that opening up discussion on including infection in pathologies in which discussion have been confined in the cage of metabolic disorder would lead to better outcomes in health for forum members.

​

 

[ecstatichamster]

As I recall you had some success with antibiotics, albeit not in blood pressure. Why not just try antibiotics in combination?

Also, I didn’t realize you ate rice all the time, literally 3 meals a day. Have you tried not eating rice? I suppose it’s possible that you have allergies to rice...I would try dropping the rice for a bit and seeing if it makes a difference. Why not?

 

[Amazoniac]

It is very hard to run counter to the culture of this forum, where saying something that strays from the metabolic theory of disease is seemingly automatically discounted. Here I present once again the infectious component to disease to which I once mentioned before pertaining to the topic of cancer. I really don't know whether silence and no reaction in this forum meant agreement or indifference or an unwillingness to discuss this. I have no way to tell how many people have gotten well in a major way in our forum, but I would hope that opening up discussion on including infection in pathologies in which discussion have been confined in the cage of metabolic disorder would lead to better outcomes in health for forum members.

yerrag, infections are not dismissed around here, the subject of microbes being a problem pops up on every opportunity and we seek sterility. Antibiotics are overused and we are the main responsibles for keeping the tetracycline and penicillin industries alive, we also have a germ bootcamp where only the strong mutant ones survive and are apt to be relased in our communities. What can be argued is that people tend to neglect those that aren't confined to our primary brain.

But anyway, how are those enzymes metabolized? They might concentrate where you don't need them and being a source of stress before having a significant impact where they were supposed to be doing ther job. Do they have some sort of selective action? Because the body must not allow them to be circulating for too long if they can dissolve tissues, yet if it does, it will accomplish the goal by melting everything and the repair will only occur where it's desirable, and in this case it can be positive.

 

[yerrag]

As I recall you had some success with antibiotics, albeit not in blood pressure. Why not just try antibiotics in combination?

Also, I didn’t realize you ate rice all the time, literally 3 meals a day. Have you tried not eating rice? I suppose it’s possible that you have allergies to rice...I would try dropping the rice for a bit and seeing if it makes a difference. Why not?

As far as rice is concerned, rice is staple in Asia and people here are genetically used to it. I've never heard of native people with that problem here just as people don't have skin cancer from sunlight here. That's not something I would be inclined to explore.

As far as antibiotics goes, it may work at a higher dosage level. But I have to read up on phages first as phages seem more suited to handle biofilm and bacteria.

Here's a nice article on phages: Bacteriophages and Biofilms

 

[yerrag]

yerrag, infections are not dismissed around here, the subject of microbes being a problem pops up on every opportunity and we seek sterility. Antibiotics are overused and we are the main responsibles for keeping the tetracycline and penicillin industries alive, we also have a germ bootcamp where only the strong mutant ones survive and are apt to be relased in our communities. What can be argued is that people tend to neglect those that aren't confined to our primary brain.

But anyway, how are those enzymes metabolized? They might concentrate where you don't need them and being a source of stress before having a significant impact where they were supposed to be doing ther job. Do they have some sort of selective action? Because the body must not allow them to be circulating for too long if they can dissolve tissues, yet if it does, it will accomplish the goal by melting everything and the repair will only occur where it's desirable, and in this case it can be positive.

While you can say infections aren't dismissed around here, there is a high level of preference to consider the metabolic aspects of disease to the detriment of consideration for the infectious aspect of it. In solving any problem, one can't begin with having an exclusionary bias. That just defeats the process of problem solving and analysis.

I can't answer those questions about enzymes. You can just watch Dr. Wong's lectures on Youtube as they are very well explained. All I know is that they do the same things as our body's proteolytic enzymes do. You eat a lot of pineapples, and perhaps you understand what bromelain does and you don't ask these questions when eating pineapples, do you? The real problem is nattokinase that comes without vitamin k, as without vitamin k it can cause blood to become too thin as it lyses too much fibrin, and create a dangerous situation. The enzymes, be it the blend or serrapep, somehow knows when to stop - I just don't know how they have that ability.

 

[Elie]

The carotid artery ultrasound is a good idea. I had asked about it, and the only reason I didn't do it was I had to take a trip across town to get it done. I don't think it costs a lot, it's non-invasive, so there's no reason not to do it.

But it is the carotid, perhaps the largest artery in the body. If scan shows that there is plaque there, I can only say that there is a high probability that there is plaque in my capillaries. One can argue that it's not proof enough there's plaque in my capillaries, if one should want to still question the presence of plaque in my capillaries.

I could argue that I have 15+ years of periodontal disease that was hidden and not acted upon, and that I could argue that this chronic bacterial infection would have resulted in a lot of plaque building up over the years. But then, unseen, people can still question whether this logic is sound.

I could argue also that a marker, called RDW, shows that I have a good likelihood of plaque in my capillaries, but it's still not enough proof.

I could argue that the reaction I got from the putative lysing action of proteolytic enzymes - high innate immune reaction from a big jump in WBC in the form of neutrophils, and the increased urination, which I would attribute to substance released in the breakdown of plaque - could be seen as another confirmation.

I can deduce many things as Sherlock Holmes would, but I needed one more test - to be sure. And this is after so many years of excluding plaque as a cause - not by me - but by naturopathic doctors - and not being able to arrive at a resolution.

This is what I've harped about in the past. Doctors and people don't deduce, they are the modern Thomases. To see is to believe. Maybe I'm not being fair. The need to prove that no test is neglected protects doctors from being sued. Hence tests galore - damn if they're invasive or not. But this has become the mindset - even when one is doctoring oneself.

Puzzles are never fully formed before one gets the full picture. We already knew that as kids.

Re carotid artery scan I have seen studies showing showing correlation between carotid artery plaque and coronary artery plaque. Also, it is an easy enough procedure to use to track progression or regression. RDW test is a good indicator. So is urine microalbumin / creatinine ratio (marker of endothelial function) and so hemoglobin A1C. Haidut is absolutely right about thyroid and preg. My approach to plaque is providing the energy to repair (i.e. Peat principles) and the building blocks needed to repair artery tissue (repair the collagen / elastin matrix that becomes scar like). Plaque, much like a scab on the skin would slough off. These are the principles behind Healthy Heart Plus (23 different ingredients). If the injury to the artery wall comes from endotoxin, that has to be addressed as well (plaque is response to injury - excess oxidation, lipoxidation end products).

 

[ecstatichamster]

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0021-8707(37)90313-7/pdf

I would always try food substitutions. What can it hurt? Some people are allergic to rice, even in Asia. You are wrong that it isn’t something that happens. It does.

https://www.nepjol.info/index.php/NJST/article/download/3187/2772

 

[yerrag]

Re carotid artery scan I have seen studies showing showing correlation between carotid artery plaque and coronary artery plaque. Also, it is an easy enough procedure to use to track progression or regression. RDW test is a good indicator. So is urine microalbumin / creatinine ratio (marker of endothelial function) and so hemoglobin A1C. Haidut is absolutely right about thyroid and preg. My approach to plaque is providing the energy to repair (i.e. Peat principles) and the building blocks needed to repair artery tissue (repair the collagen / elastin matrix that becomes scar like). Plaque, much like a scab on the skin would slough off. These are the principles behind Healthy Heart Plus (23 different ingredients). If the injury to the artery wall comes from endotoxin, that has to be addressed as well (plaque is response to injury - excess oxidation, lipoxidation end products).

I guess I'll have to go to Canada to buy your product.

Haidut is right, but is he going to solve my problem approaching it within the confines of a metabolic approach?

 

[Amazoniac]

While you can say infections aren't dismissed around here, there is a high level of preference to consider the metabolic aspects of disease to the detriment of consideration for the infectious aspect of it. In solving any problem, one can't begin with having an exclusionary bias. That just defeats the process of problem solving and analysis.

I can't answer those questions about enzymes. You can just watch Dr. Wong's lectures on Youtube as they are very well explained. All I know is that they do the same things as our body's proteolytic enzymes do. You eat a lot of pineapples, and perhaps you understand what bromelain does and you don't ask these questions when eating pineapples, do you? The real problem is nattokinase that comes without vitamin k, as without vitamin k it can cause blood to become too thin as it lyses too much fibrin, and create a dangerous situation. The enzymes, be it the blend or serrapep, somehow knows when to stop - I just don't know how they have that ability.

It's not exclusionary and the preference is justifiable because once they're in the body, it's more challenging to address them directly.

You seem to have misinterpreted the second paragraph, I wasn't discouraging your approach (hence the last part), those were considerations for you to improve it. Proteolytic enzymes in the body are controlled, contrary to the pills taken bypassing taste, which doesn't happen when you consume pineapfels.

As far as rice is concerned, rice is staple in Asia and people here are genetically used to it. I've never heard of native people with that problem here just as people don't have skin cancer from sunlight here. That's not something I would be inclined to explore.

Is your rice grass-fed? Can be a contributor.
- Arsenic and Chronic Kidney Disease: A Systematic Review
- Rice consumption contributes to arsenic exposure in US women
- Arsenic Exposure and Hypertension: A Systematic Review

I once asked a local company for the lab analysis of their rice regarding arsenic content and this is what they replied:

​

 

[yerrag]

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0021-8707(37)90313-7/pdf

I would always try food substitutions. What can it hurt? Some people are allergic to rice, even in Asia. You are wrong that it isn’t something that happens. It does.

https://www.nepjol.info/index.php/NJST/article/download/3187/2772

I'm wrong just because it does happen. But I make a distinction between possibility and probability here. What you're asking me is to let the guy at the end of the queue go to the front of the line.

 

[yerrag]

t's not exclusionary and the preference is justifiable because once they're in the body, it's more challenging to address them directly.

We should not be treated with kid gloves. I understand what you're saying, really I do. And you're invoking the precautionary principle. But after 15 years, and after diligently avoiding anything dealing with infection, am I allowed to get an exemption?

But seriously, I've tried to work within the metabolic straitjacket, and what my data tells me, as I've recounted, thru my body (all that urine) and through my wbc and neutrophils test, is I need to go outside the box.

One has to be open.

You seem to have misinterpreted the second paragraph, I wasn't discouraging your approach (hence the last part), those were considerations for you to improve it. Proteolytic enzymes in the body are controlled, contrary to the pills taken bypassing taste, which doesn't happen when you consume pineapfels.

Sorry for that.

I was being aware of what the enzyme was doing. Otherwise, why would I be. monitoring thru CBC tests and being cognizant of excess urination? I was taking notes and also limiting the variables.

 

[yerrag]

Is your rice grass-fed? Can be a contributor.
- Arsenic and Chronic Kidney Disease: A Systematic Review
- Rice consumption contributes to arsenic exposure in US women
- Arsenic Exposure and Hypertension: A Systematic Review

I once asked a local company for the lab analysis of their rice regarding arsenic content and this is what they replied:

Look, this seems like something coming out of left field.

I suppose I should tell all my family to shift to bread, even though I'm the only one with hypertension. They all eat rice and I'm the lucky one?

I must disclose, in case I forgot to mention, that I had 15+ years of periodontal infection, a latent one, that went untreated. Does this raise more of a red flag here? Doesn't this have anything to do with plaque? And would you believe me if I tell you there is more to this than just a coincidence?

 

[yerrag]

Found this:

View attachment 13948

Adrenal extract was apparently successful in dramatically relieving high blood pressure. I think it is possible they injected it.

Source: Education of Cancer Healing Vol. IX - The Best Of

Interesting. Wonder if the extract has a lot of steroid hormones - DHEA, progesterone etc - and vitamin C.

These substances, however, can't help with plaque and its safe lysing and the restoration of endothelial health.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Aren't dietary changes the heart of what we talk about here, quite rightly I think?

 

[Tarmander]

Do you have some references?

Nah just what I have heard in a lot of health food stores as working for people.

 

[yerrag]

Aren't dietary changes the heart of what we talk about here, quite rightly I think?

Can't follow your logic. You seem to be trivializing this all the way to the most basic of the metabolic aspects of health. Can't really tell if you're serious or just trolling.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Can't follow your logic. You seem to be trivializing this all the way to the most basic of the metabolic aspects of health. Can't really tell if you're serious or just trolling.

I assure you I am serious. You have an intractable blood pressure problem but you haven’t tried elimination diets. You dismissed my idea about replacing rice for awhile very out of hand. That’s fine. But if it were me, the first thing I’d be doing is elimination diets and testing foods for allergies and the capacity for causing me problems undetected.

Just a thought. It probably will lead nowhere, but why not try to eliminate foods that you’ve been eating and checking for potential to be allergenic and creating hypertension?

 

[yerrag]

I'm making the mistake here of assuming people here would appreciate the significance of my observation about the increase in WBC and neutrophil count as well as activity, as a response to the use of proteolytic enzymes, especially with serrapeptidase.

There is an increased innate immune response - that's what it means. And this response, in my estimation, is due to bacteria being released into the bloodstream from biofilm being broken down as the lysing of plaque progresses.

An increase in neutrophil count is a sign of bacterial infection, and when no increase in temperature accompanies it, it is considered a low-level infection.

You can gauge the level of low-grade infection by how far above the optimal range the wbc count is, and by how high the neutrophil % of wbc is.

I can therefore relate the lysing action on plaque from the use of proteolytic enzymes to the release of bacteria into the bloodstream, as evidenced by wbc and neutrophil activity.

But I'm no expert here. This is a guess. But I now understand I can't expect a discussion, much less an analysis, on this observation because the CBC test is seen as a cheap test, and cheap tests probably get no respect here. Yes, I'm cheap and I try to make use of cheap lab tests instead of the expensive tests. That works for me, but I'm going over your head as it makes no sense at all to you.

Instead, discussion is naturally diverted to where I find, at least in my case, nothing new being discussed. Becoming an argument over the limits of this discussion rather on where I feel it could shed light on the implications of my observations, and on finding ways to address the problem I'm facing.

So, my n=1 is just something I can't get any meangingful input about, but just a rehash of the fundmentalist principles of metabolism and health.

Thanks for trying though. I know you mean well.

I mean, I'm framing the discussion as well as I could, and yet the frame is moving elsewhere. There is a clear-cut cause and effect relationship here observed, and yet it's as if no one saw it. It's just a blur, isn't it? Thanks for scanning through and missing the gist of what I'm saying.