Fixed My Frequent Urination that Disturbs Sleep, But Many Questions Remain

yerrag

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First of all, I had no problem before with frequent urination, but it's when I did something to fix my health - taking some substances - really plain harmless - that I would experience increased urination. To the point I would be urinating every 45 minutes during the day, and I would be waking up at least 4 times during my sleep to urinate. It is bothersome, to say the least. And downright worrisome, as you can see how much sleep is taken from me. And frustrating, as with this condition, my health would turn for the worst, albeit in a slow manner (like people when they age and eventually accept the false idea that older people need less sleep), while I realize, as maybe many in this forum would, how very challenging it is to improve one's health. This is one of the many gotcha's one encounters as one's health worsens as one tries to improve it.

Once, I was taking magnesium chloride- as much as 600mg of elemental magnesium worth of it. I took it for at least 4 months. It took that long to realize I was losing sleep, and I was urinating very often, even with just a trickle of urine to spur my urge. My allergic rhinitis came back, and I also had a dry cough that wouldn't go away, stuck in my throat. Only then did I test my urine pH, and found that I had become acidic, with a urine pH of 5.5 (it was at the edge of the pH test's range of 5.5-8) where optimal would be 6.5-6.8 (this is a surrogate biomarker for blood pH used by naturopaths, but never by mainstream pharma doctors). And by serendipity, I came across an article shared by @Amazoniac which informed me that magnesium chloride intake is an acidic load, and that would explain why my acid-base balance got wrecked by intake of magnesium chloride daily. But this was a good lesson on having good acid-base balance for health, but not the last one regarding why the body would urinate so much.

I mentioned of a case of high frequency urination without a full bladder in the above paragraph, and I linked it to having a very acidic ecf (extracellular fluid, including blood). Next, I was to encounter high frequency urination, but spurred by copius amounts of urine spurred by a full bladder. Once again, it was from taking another innocuous substance that has purportedly no side-effects. I was in contact with the manufacturer about it, but I was ignored. It just goes to show that it's not pharmaceutical companies that are guilty of ignoring adverse effects for the sake of marketing; it also happens with non-pharma alternative health suppliers. I can hardly fault them though - lawyers would advice anyone in any field not to admit to anything, as that is how companies (and individuals) survive in our legal and 'lawful' age. Anyway, "caveat emptor" should be our guide.

I took proteolytic enzymes because I wanted to lower my high blood pressure condition. The plan was for the enzymes to lyse the plaque in the blood vessels, and by lessening the plaque, my blood pressure would lower. As health fortunes would turn and not conform to plan, I would find my blood pressure increasing. Not only that, I gradually developed a case of high frequency urination as well, and even more foaming with my urination. I was slow to notice this, as is the case when one takes a supplement and lets the "should" overshadow the "is" that is happening. No matter, I become a human oasis that would be a welcome sight in an arid desert - urinating so much MBS would have me as his best friend.

I stopped taking the proteolytic enzymes, by then figuring out it must be releasing either immune complexes or dormant bacteria embedded in the plaque as the plaque was being lysed - or both. The immune complexes would accumulate in my kidneys and be a source of inflammation, and/or the bacteria released would activate the immune system. Both inflammation and infection would be making the immune system kick into high gear. ROS (oxidants)would be generated to kill bacteria through phagocytosis, and anti-oxidants in the body would also be needed to quell the oxidative stresses from spillover effects of ROS on the surrounding tissue (collateral damage) as well as from the inflammation caused by the inflammatory cytokines and chemokines produced as a reaction to the immune complexes.

All the while, through all this hullabaloo, a lot of water is generated as a by-product. At least that is what I've read (Now I have to find the references for this as I read through many things and don't stop each and every time to note my references otherwise I'd be bogged down).

So anyway, I'm developing this idea in my mind that when the immune system is very active killing bacteria and dealing with inflammation, it produces a lot of water as a result of the killing action of oxidants on pathogens, as well as the neutralizing action of antioxidants on both the oxidative stresses of inflammation as well as the spillover effects of oxidants used in phagocytosis. So, lately, I have began to approach my urination problem (as well as my high blood pressure problem) from this angle of attack.

For a month, I took 1 liter of 100 ppm chloride dioxide spaced out over 8-10 divided doses. I saw my urination become manageable and I was able to sleep better. But my blood pressure increased. I was able to conclude that chlorine dioxide took some of the load away from the immune system in killing pathogens in my system, such that the immune system didn't have to work so hard, and in the process it also produced less water (and urine) as a by-product. All's well and good, except that my blood pressure increased.

I think that bp increased because the chlorine dioxide provided a lot of chlorine atoms that probably increased the production of HOCl (an ROS called hypochlorous acid) which is very strong but inflammatory) for use in phagocytosis, but the spillover effect of this ROS was increased causing increased inflammation. And this increased inflammation was manifested in higher blood pressure. The increased inflammation increased oxidative stress, and it needed more anti-oxidant activity, and more albumin was needed and oxidized. Because albumin is needed to increase blood volume, my blood volume would be unable to build up as a result. Having a lower blood volume would require higher pressure to compensate for lower blood volume.

@Jam shared with me a study showing that the use of iodine would be a better alternative to chlorine dioxide, as iodine being used in place of chlorine by the MPO (myeloperoxide) by neutrophils in phagoycytosis would generate less inflammation. So, I'm going to try using iodine. Carefully. With not too little of it to render it useless, while being cognizant of not overdosing on it to affect my thyroid condition. Knowing how Ray Peat is so cautious of iodine supplementation, this is not a step I take lightly but considered by weighing the relative risk and benefit of doing so.

So, as I haven't received my order of potassium iodide, I resorted a few days ago to trying out methylene blue, using @haidut 's Oxidal. For the past 2 days and onwards, I've been taking 2 x 3 drops of Oxidal daily, putting the Oxidal drops in a capsule and taking it orally. Given that MB is being used as an antibiotic for UTI as well as for fish, I decided to use it. So far, I have been sleeping well and I'm seeing lower blood pressure. So far, it's been working well but still 2 days don't make a trend.

I'm glad i'm able to experience my frequent urination as a result of taking supplements as I got to better understand a cause of frequent urination by happenstance. It did not come to me like a thief in the night, as would be the case when it slowly creeps in on us, as with elderly people, without knowing the cause. Some people in our forum have experienced problems of frequent urination and I hope my experience would help them figure out their own malady with it.

If I have solved my riddle of frequent urination, I now can focus on why urine still foams. I'm working on this now, and hopefully would soon do a 3-month daily intake of urea. I've done a shorter period of its use, and results have been promising but not conclusive. Ray has spoken a lot about urea, and I've come to rely on its use topically, every effectively on wounds as it has an antibacterial effect. The antibacterial effect is due to its ability to eliminate decaying organic matter in the wound, thus depriving pathogens of a food source. I'm hoping it has a similar effect internally, and not only that. I'm hoping it would be able to isolate the antibody from the pathogen in the immune complex (IC) accumulating in my kidneys, as urea is being used to isolate ICs in petri dishes. I hate these ICs. I think they're a problem with me because vaccination has altered my immune response and made it produce ICs where it would not have had I not been vaccinated 2 years before I began having hypertension.
 

Vileplume

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Great post and self research @yerrag , this was informative to read. My main takeaways were that excess immune system function, as a result of inflammation, can cause frequent urination; additionally, that inflammation in general causes problems that you mentioned — frequent urination, hypertension.

Do you notice oxidal having a different effect than other anti-inflammatories like aspirin, or a different effect than antibiotics? Frequent urination has long been an issue of mine, and it does seem tied to inflammation, and I’m curious if MB would have this urination balancing effect in people whose inflammation stems from a different cause than your inflammation.
 

yerrag

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Great post and self research @yerrag , this was informative to read. My main takeaways were that excess immune system function, as a result of inflammation, can cause frequent urination; additionally, that inflammation in general causes problems that you mentioned — frequent urination, hypertension.

Do you notice oxidal having a different effect than other anti-inflammatories like aspirin, or a different effect than antibiotics? Frequent urination has long been an issue of mine, and it does seem tied to inflammation, and I’m curious if MB would have this urination balancing effect in people whose inflammation stems from a different cause than your inflammation.
I think there are two factors involved. Though related but distinct. Inflammation and infection.

The infection is low-level - which means it doesn't result in fever. This is also called colonization by mainstream doctors, which is often, if not always, below their radar. This means they let it slip past. You can't even test for the bacteria in regular tests- fecal, blood etc. as they don't test for that bacteria. That being the case, I have to deduce their presence and this is where modern medicine runs into a brick wall I think. If they don't see it or detect it, it doesn't exist. Their penchant for "evidence" means deductive reasoning is not a valid method of inquiry. It is not "scientific" and your're a quack for using logic, which earlier great doctors like Avicenna used. So they don't tie frequent urination to presence of pathogens that require a constant or chronic immune system response that generates water in the form of urine as a by-product. Google for causes of frequent urination, and you'll find useless answers, the same answers conventional doctors give us.

Infection can be addressed with antibiotics, but not by anti-oxidants in a direct way [Phagocytosis kills pathogen by use of oxidants. Antioxidants come in when their is spillover effect on surrounding tissues by ROS oxidants, where anti-oxidants counter the oxidative stresses stemming from it]. But I'm using antibiotics in a general sense, not just limited to pharma. In this case, chlorine dioxide and methylene blue can work as antibiotics, as they kill pathogens, and not just against bacteria, but also virus and fungi. So their use relieves the immune system of a great load, and because of that the generation of water as a by-product is lessened, and less urination results.

Inflammation is includes the spillover effect I just mentioned, but also includes the various inflammatory proteins produced by the immune system needed for an effective immune response to not only pathogens but anything considered foreign by the immune system, rightly or wrongly. So this would include toxins as well as internally generated substances such as immune complexes.

In my case, I perceive chlorine dioxide being able to act as an antibiotic, but I also feel it increases inflammation, being that it could cause too much production of hypochlorous acid. But I perceive (so far) the use of methylene blue having an antibiotic effect without the causing an increase in the production of hypochlorous acid. This seems to have the effect of not increasing my blood pressure because it has less of an inflammatory effect.

So, to answer your question, the MB is not acting as an anti-inflammatory like aspirin, it is acting more like an antibiotic. It just is not causing an inflammatory effect like chlorine dioxide seems to be.
 

gaze

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what did you eat to prevent water soluble b vitamin deficiency with urinating that much?
 
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yerrag

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what did you eat to prevent water b vitamin deficiency with urinating that much?
I'd have to make sure I get enough b-complex especially b1, as well as more minerals such as potassium.
 
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Vileplume

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what did you eat to prevent water soluble b vitamin deficiency with urinating that much?
I'd have to make I get enough b-complex especially b1, as well as more minerals such as potassium.
Do you know which vitamins and minerals are most likely to become deficient with frequent urination? Is it all water soluble vitamins?
 

gaze

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Do you know which vitamins and minerals are most likely to become deficient with frequent urination? Is it all water soluble vitamins?
my guess is the ones most easiest wasted in stress. magnesium, vitamin b1,and b6 come to mind, but im sure all b vitamins take a hit.
 

CheckMate

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Since i started taking Mg Chloride(3/4g during the day) my urination improved, also during the sleep. For sure it lowers ph, now i have 6.0.
How can i balance that, since i want to keep taking it?
Do you have some reasearch/article on ph? I would like to deepen the subject
 

metabolizm

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I barely ever get up to pee now that my vitamin D levels are normal. Earlier this year I was getting up three or four times a night. It was horrible. Of course, I can’t be 100% certain of the causality here - but vitamin D is the only thing I’ve been supplementing. It’s the only change I have made.
 

LLight

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yerrag

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Do you know which vitamins and minerals are most likely to become deficient with frequent urination? Is it all water soluble vitamins?
I felt like an old person easily pushed around when boarding a train pushed by people behind me. My leg muscles couldn't hold their ground. It certainly has to do with the b-vitamins being excreted from frequent urination. I think it was mostly due to thiamine loss. As for potassium being lost, I would feel myself experiencing cramps at times when I wake up from my sleep.

Since i started taking Mg Chloride(3/4g during the day) my urination improved, also during the sleep. For sure it lowers ph, now i have 6.0.
How can i balance that, since i want to keep taking it?
Do you have some reasearch/article on ph? I would like to deepen the subject
Pls. read the attached file. It's about magnesium chloride as well as calcium chloride intake being acid loads. The same can't be said for potassium chloride and sodium chloride.

I barely ever get up to pee now that my vitamin D levels are normal. Earlier this year I was getting up three or four times a night. It was horrible. Of course, I can’t be 100% certain of the causality here - but vitamin D is the only thing I’ve been supplementing. It’s the only change I have made.
Glad you were able to finally get rid of the problem.
 

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Jam

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Interesting read @yerrag. I think the most beneficial substances for chronic infection and inflammation are those which generally lower stress and inflammation, support host bioenergetic status, and help mitigate collateral damage / tissue destruction while supporting the immune system in its fight against the microbes.

In my case, a vital first step was to arrest the destruction of my jaw by my immune system (in its war against periodontal pathogens) by saturating myself with iodine, thus slowly converting my MPO "ammo" from hypochlorus acid to hypoiodous acid which is more selective, efficient, and most importantly less damaging to host tissue.

Then, supplementing with anti-inflammatory, anti-microbial, and bioenergetic-supporting quinone-based herbs was what finally put me in complete remission from the long-term collateral damage that had been silently accumulating in my joints for years: Chaparral (NDGA (Nordihydroguaiaretic Acid)), Lapacho (Lapachol and Beta-lapachone), and Cascara Sagrada / He Shou Wu (Emodin), completely eliminated the rheumatoid arthritis-like symptoms I have been suffering from since my periodontal disease exploded in 2012.

It is now imperative to get my protective and healing hormones in balance, as discussed in chapter 13 of Peat's Generative Energy - Restoring The Wholeness Of Life. By reducing the stress hormones cortisol and estrogen, and supporting (not supplementing!) the protective hormones (progesterone, DHEA, testosterone), I may even be able to start healing and rebuilding from all of the accumulated damage...
 
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yerrag

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I'm not sure it will be totally on topic but you might find these ideas interesting:
Thanks. It's a good read, and I love it when it's short and clearly written as well. It's not directly related to the issue of urination, but related as you know very well my context. For the time though, i've stopped using any enzymes, such as lumbrokinase (which I've tried as well) as I suspect more lysing of plaque would release bacteria from lysed plaque that would activate more immune responses. And I also fear immune complexes (IC) may also be released from the lysed plaque that would result in more inflammatory responses when the ICs accumulate in my kidneys. But I will revisit the use of proteolytic enzymes once I've gained some measure of success in lowering the inflammatory activity in my kidneys as manifested in lower blood pressure. I'm pretty certain there are a lot of hidden skeletons in those plaques lining my blood vessels, which would open another pandora's box, of which I would be able to deal with after I successfully lower my blood pressure this time around. The plan may involve alternating pulsed doses of proteolytic enzymes, which releases ICs and bacteria -to be followed by oxidants such as iodine to fight the infection, and a protocol for splitting up the immune complex (maybe urea, and astragalus) and some substances to lower inflammatory activity (flaxseed oil maybe, as @zarrin77 has been suggesting).

It will be noted that I have shied away from using ascorbic acid. @sugarbabe I'm beginning to see Ray Peat's point regarding the use of antioxidants. I need the oxidants for to assist in phagocytosis to kill pathogens, and I am relying more now on the body's on-demand ability to produce anti-oxidants when they're needed to quell ozidative stress resulting from tissue damage by spillover ROS used in phagocytosis. I'm beginning to think that taking anti-oxidants in large quantities would be counterproductive as it would counter the body's ability to kill pathogens when they're supplied exogenously - they are there when not needed when they should be produced endogenously on demand by the body. The body may not produce ascorbic acid but there are many other anti-oxidants produced by the body (albumin, uric acid, glutathione etc). I may be wrong on this though, as ascorbic acid an also work as a pro-oxidant, but for the moment I'm not using ascorbic acid.

Interesting read @yerrag. I think the most beneficial substances for chronic infection and inflammation are those which generally lower stress and inflammation, support host bioenergetic status, and help mitigate collateral damage / tissue destruction while supporting the immune system in its fight against the microbes.

In my case, a vital first step was to arrest the destruction of my jaw by my immune system (in its war against periodontal pathogens) by saturating myself with iodine, thus slowly converting my MPO "ammo" from hypochlorus acid to hypoiodous acid which is more selective, efficient, and most importantly less damaging to host tissue.
I just received my potassium iodide today and will start with the SSKI drops soon, in the dosage you recommended in the Molecular Iodine thread.

I'll stop using methylene blue shortly and begin using iodine and see what effect it will have on my urination frequency as well as on my blood pressure. Hopefully, it will result in less inflammation and i can see lower blood pressure. And if I see even less foam in my urine, it would indicate the iodine usage being more effective. To me, the foam is an indication of albumin being oxidized and being excreted. If not albumin is being used as an anti-oxidant, it would mean less oxidative stress resulting from inflammation.

Then, supplementing with anti-inflammatory, anti-microbial, and bioenergetic-supporting quinone-based herbs was what finally put me in complete remission from the long-term collateral damage that had been silently accumulating in my joints for years: Chaparral (NDGA (Nordihydroguaiaretic Acid)), Lapacho (Lapachol and Beta-lapachone), and Cascara Sagrada / He Shou Wu (Emodin), completely eliminated the rheumatoid arthritis-like symptoms I have been suffering from since my periodontal disease exploded in 2012.
Glad they worked in improving your joint condition. I could never understand the mechanism of action of quinones though, not that I doubt their effectiveness. I just find it hard to use any substance without knowing their mechanism of action. I tried reading on them on some threads here, they're just too long to read on it seems mto gain a functional understanding for me to make sense of . If you have good short reads on them, please pass along.

It is now imperative to get my protective and healing hormones in balance, as discussed in chapter 13 of Peat's Generative Energy - Restoring The Wholeness Of Life. By reducing the stress hormones cortisol and estrogen, and supporting (not supplementing!) the protective hormones (progesterone, DHEA, testosterone), I may even be able to start healing and rebuilding from all of the accumulated damage...
Now you got me interested in comparing your genital ratio with mine. The genital ratio is a metric used in endobiogeny which is a ratio of RBC/WBC. The RBC is said to be correlated with high androgen activity, and the WBC is said to correlate with estrogenic activity:


My RBC is 5.18 and my WBC is 6.86, and my genital ratio is 0.76 (as of June last year). What's yours? I expect mine to be lower than yours.
 
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Jam

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yerrag said:
Glad they worked in improving your joint condition. I could never understand the mechanism of action of quinones though, not that I doubt their effectiveness. I just find it hard to use any substance without knowing their mechanism of action. I tried reading on them on some threads here, they're just too long to read on it seems mto gain a functional understanding for me to make sense of . If you have good short reads on them, please pass along.

But you're using methylene blue, which works in a very similar fashion. Quinones are very supportive of bioenergetic balance (by augmenting NAD+, for example), are potently antimicrobial and anti-cancer (through, for example, a perpetuating "futile" redox cycle), and are highly anti-inflammatory.

My RBC is 5.18 and my WBC is 6.86, and my genital ratio is 0.76 (as of June last year). What's yours? I expect mine to be lower than yours.

Sorry, I don't know. Haven't tested in years.
 
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yerrag

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But you're using methylene blue, which works in a very similar fashion. Quinones are very supportive of bioenergetic balance (by augmenting NAD+, for example), are potently antimicrobial and anti-cancer (through, for example, a perpetuating "futile" redox cycle), and are highly anti-inflammatory.



Sorry, I don't know. Haven't tested in years.
Thanks.
 

Jam

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Ray talking a little about methylene blue and quinones here:
 

Dennis

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I took proteolytic enzymes because I wanted to lower my high blood pressure condition

May I know what exactly you took? ( brand etc.). I do take proteolytic enzymes in the form of desiccated pancreas which is probably is safest but then I don't quite know of the excipients.
 

Vileplume

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It is now imperative to get my protective and healing hormones in balance, as discussed in chapter 13 of Peat's Generative Energy - Restoring The Wholeness Of Life. By reducing the stress hormones cortisol and estrogen, and supporting (not supplementing!) the protective hormones (progesterone, DHEA, testosterone), I may even be able to start healing and rebuilding from all of the accumulated damage...
Thanks for this wonderful step by step explanation. Do you think supplementing these protective hormones could be a helpful short term strategy to achieve hormone balance? Or might the risk of further unbalance be too great?
 

yerrag

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May I know what exactly you took? ( brand etc.). I do take proteolytic enzymes in the form of desiccated pancreas which is probably is safest but then I don't quite know of the excipients.
I took Enerex' serrapeptidase and also used ZymEssence, not together though.
 

yerrag

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