Help Me Improve My Experience Of Using L-Ascorbic Acid

yerrag

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I've been using l-ascorbic acid as one way to lower my blood pressure, by way of its ability to chelate lead. In my case, the lead is in my kidneys, and by removing lead from my kidney, it will reduce oxidative stress, and this will keep the kidney capillaries from being constricted, and this will allow my blood pressure to drop. I have been able to lower my blood pressure as a result, but much work remains.

In the five months I've used ascorbic acid, I have come to a point where I feel I'm getting side effects. I would like to remove the side effects, and I'd like your help in the way of comments and suggestions.

These may not be actual side effects though, it may likely be simply my faulty perception that makes me consider these as side effects of using ascorbic acid. But I'll explain as I go why I consider them valid side effects.

I observed the following:

a. frequent urination at night that leads to loss of quality sleep
b. lower metabolism
c. excessive flatulence, though odorless
d. having acid reflux symptoms, where I would burp often

I've read and understand that l=ascorbic acid is more effective than buffered vitamin c (sodium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate, calcium ascorbate), although it is more acidic and that some people cannot take l-ascorbate (aka hydrogen ascorbate or simply vitamin c) because it irritates their gut. I find that it does not irritate my gut, I use it over the buffered types.

But now I'm starting to ask myself if all the above"side-effects" are due to my prolonged use of ascorbic acid, which I take in at the dosage of around 7 grams a day, wherein I would dissolve it in a 600ml water bottle and drink throughout the day, in order to keep myself from ingesting amounts that would simply be excreted out through urine. The more ascorbic acid is excreted, the less of it would be absorbed by the body.

The significance of each of these side effects are as follows:

a. Frequent urination at night means loss of quality sleep. This results in, among others, the impairnment of the ability to load up on glycogen stores at night, and over time, my glycogen stores would be gradually reduced to where it would impact my blood glucose levels. With lower bloog sugar levels, there would be less sugar available to be burned for energy, and this would result in lower metabolism.

b. If I take too much of ascorbic acid, more than what I really need, it may result in too much acidity in the blood. This would trigger hyperventilation in order to breath out carbon dioxide, and would result in lower carbon dioxide in the blood. With lower CO2 in the blood, oxygenation of tissues will be reduced, and there would be less oxygen available. This would lead to lower metabolism.

c. Excessive flatulence could be a symptom of the pancreas releasing bicarbonates at the duodenum of the small intestines in order to neutralize the acid from the intake of ascorbic acid. The effect of bicarbonates neutralizing the acid could very well be carbon dioxide. As carbon dioxide is odorless, this could explain why I have odorless gas. This was my conclusion when one time when I took a large amount of ascorbic acid to fight a cold, and it resulted in plenty of gas over the next few days.

d. Before I started the protocol on using ascorbic acid, I was not a burper. I had no sign of being susceptible to acid reflux symptoms. It was only upon prolonged used of ascorbic acid that I started to burp. I think that the burp is the body's way of telling me that I should start to reduce the amount of my daily intake of ascorbic acid. Or if I needed continue the dosage level, I should consider taking it with some sodium bicarbonate, so as to counter the acidity of the ascorbic acid. At any rate, it could be a sign of excess acidity which I should not overlook.


To recap, it would appear then that an excessive intake of vitamin C would lead to lower metabolism, by way of a) reduced blood sugar availability from reduced glycogen stores due to disturbed sleep out of having to wake up often to urinate*
b) reduced oxygen availability due to lower serum CO2 as a result of increased serum acidity (or lower serum pH)

The acidic effect of excsss ascorbic acid intake can be confirmed by observing its effects c) increased odorless flatulence, and d) the increased acid reflux symptom of burping.

*Increased urination - could possibly be the result of both the compensatory response of both the lungs and the kidneys to deal with the increased serum acidity due to excessive ascorbic acid intake. In order to address the excess of H+ ions in the blood (brought about by excess ascorbic acid), bicarbonate ions would react with H+ to produce carbonic carbonic acid H2CO3, and into CO2 + H2O. This creates water that needs to be eliminated. At the same time, the acidic blood (from excess ascorbic acid intake) would cause the kidney to compensate by producing more bicarbonate using the phosphate and ammonia buffer system, and byproducts sodium phosphate and ammonium chloride would need to be excreted. Because the acidic blood environment (caused by excess ascorbic acid intake) causes the buffer system to produce byproducts that need to be excreted, it triggers the urinary bladder to release these byproducts, and these leads to increased urination frequency.

Knowing now that use of ascorbic acid can lead to decreased metabolism, we can be on the lookout for when excessive ascorbic acid is used by looking for the abovementioned symptoms. In that way, we can be kept from using ascorbic acid at levels where it can be counterproductive, when it causes our metabolism to be lowered.

But the question arises if we still need to intake an amount of ascorbic acid that is deemed excessive? I think this is when we can consider using an appropriate amount of baking soda with ascorbic acid to keep the intake of a large amount of ascorbic acid from making the blood too acidic. Remember that the kidneys have to compensate by employing the phosphate and ammonia buffer system to produce bicarbonate ions into the blood? With baking soda in use, an ample supply of bicarbonate is available to keep the kidneys from having to compensate. With no need to produce bicarbonates, there would also be no byproducts that have to be excreted. This is helpful, as this keeps the urinary bladders from having to be active, and this would reduce the freqency of urination when using ascorbic acid.

I just don't the ideal mixture of baking soda and ascorbic acid to use. Does anybody know? Anyway, I am hoping that my analysis is correct. I would very much like to proceed with my blood pressure reduction protocol, and do it better this time, by avoiding any of the "side effects" such that metabolism is not lowered, and that my sleep is not disturbed This would provide conditions that are favorable to my healing. I believe that having the right amount of energy available for use is an absolute must, as without sufficient energy the lead stuck in my kidney mitochondria would remain in place, and not be expelled out of the body.

Thoughts and comments would be highly appreciated.
 

MrThyroid

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in order to keep myself from ingesting amounts that would simply be excreted out through urine.
i know that the vitamin c is used by your body to neutralize free radicals then it get reduced and is useless and get excreted by urine. This doenst mean that the higher your elimination of vitamin c in your pee is the less the body used it. Sorry my english is bad , but i think you got the point
 

InChristAlone

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Using baking soda would be fine. I use about 1 part BS for 4 parts AA. Helps with the acidity. Also, it may be better not to sip it. But to take in doses between meals. And less so after dinner.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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i know that the vitamin c is used by your body to neutralize free radicals then it get reduced and is useless and get excreted by urine. This doenst mean that the higher your elimination of vitamin c in your pee is the less the body used it. Sorry my english is bad , but i think you got the point
True, the action of vitamin C, whether as an antioxidant to fight the oxidative stress or as a pro-oxidant to fight cancer and infection, generates waste which needs to be eliminated.. I just didn't expect to be urinating so much just from the waste generated from vitamin C doing its job. I think the freqency of urination can still be lessened with a better way to ascorbic acid intake. I'm still doiing it the wrong way, it seems. Thanks!

Using baking soda would be fine. I use about 1 part BS for 4 parts AA. Helps with the acidity. Also, it may be better not to sip it. But to take in doses between meals. And less so after dinner.
Glad to see that you've been having success using baking soda with it. Did you come out with this ratio after trying out different ratios, and found this ratio to be most suitable for you? I came across this blog from Purebulk, about making sodium ascorbate by mixing ascorbic acid with baking soda. However, the ratio was 2:1 ascorbic:baking soda by volume : Sodium Ascorbate Recipe - PureBulk Blog

I was concerned with that ratio as I fear ingesting too much baking soda. What are your thoughts?

Thanks Janelle!
 

InChristAlone

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True, the action of vitamin C, whether as an antioxidant to fight the oxidative stress or as a pro-oxidant to fight cancer and infection, generates waste which needs to be eliminated.. I just didn't expect to be urinating so much just from the waste generated from vitamin C doing its job. I think the freqency of urination can still be lessened with a better way to ascorbic acid intake. I'm still doiing it the wrong way, it seems. Thanks!

Glad to see that you've been having success using baking soda with it. Did you come out with this ratio after trying out different ratios, and found this ratio to be most suitable for you? I came across this blog from Purebulk, about making sodium ascorbate by mixing ascorbic acid with baking soda. However, the ratio was 2:1 ascorbic:baking soda by volume : Sodium Ascorbate Recipe - PureBulk Blog

I was concerned with that ratio as I fear ingesting too much baking soda. What are your thoughts?

Thanks Janelle!
I didn't like the idea of making it a neutral substance so I went with the least amount to help acidity.

You can try it out! I get good effects. Or so I think.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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I didn't like the idea of making it a neutral substance so I went with the least amount to help acidity.

You can try it out! I get good effects. Or so I think.
I'll play around with the ratio. At least I know the range I can work with. I just have to find a ratio where urination goes back to normal, and flatulence,and burping gone. I'll start with yours. Easier said than done though, as the effects take long to be felt. Thanks.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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In reading thru Vitamin C and Acidity , I get a better idea, with my experience mixed in, that it's better for me to use buffered ascorbates rather than l-ascorbic acid. It explains that the reason some people use the ascorbates is because they can't take to the acidic form, which is l-ascorbic acid. I figured then that since my gut can take it, I should use l-ascorbic acid. And that would have been the right choice, since l-ascorbic acid has two hydrogen ions, and thus is twice better than the ascorbate form, which only has one hydrogen ion. Thus, it would twice as effective molecule for molecule than the ascorbates in terms of its antioxidant capability.
,
In a normal one-off and short-term situation when vitamin C is called to do its work, using ascorbic acid would be fine because for that duration, the body is equipped to use its own lungs and kidneys to counter the acidic effect of using ascorbic acid. But when a protocol involving the use of vitamin C is called for that involves a long period of time, one has to consider the cumulative effect of prolonged use of ascorbic acid. In my case, I learned that, on the 5th month of a 6-month process, I'm now feeling the cumulative acid effects of using ascorbic acid. My serum pH is likely acidic, and this would lower my serum CO2, and this would lower the oxygenation of my body's tissues, and this very well will lead to lowering my metabolism. This is further compounded by my loss of sleep, which would impact my glycogen stores (which needs good sleep to build up), and this would affect the availability of standby sugar in between meals. Lowering the supply of oxygen and sugar will definitely lower the metabolism. And with lower energy, my health is affected. I have lately become affected by allergies to pollen and to MSG, which I had already overcome. i also believe this has impeded my progress in chelating lead from my kidneys, as energy is needed to expel lead from my kidney cell's mitochondria. Without a reliable and ample amount from energy from a good metabolism, the protocol of vitamin and magnesium chloride I had employed would only be half as effectve.

This is why I believe I should modify my protocol of using ascorbic acid. I would have to mix ascorbic acid with baking soda, aka sodium bicarbonate, so that its reaction byproduct sodium ascorbate could continue the antiozidant cleanup efforts begun using ascorbic acid, but without the baggage of acidifying the blood.

So, I'm going to use tyhe 2:1 by volume mix of ascorbic acid and baking soda, to produce sodium ascorbate when I resume my therapy. Hopefully, I can sleep better, not burp, and not have flatulent episodes so often. Not only that, I may be able to speed up the eventual return of my blood pressure to normal.

Thanks for your comments, Janelle and MrThyroid!
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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For 5 days I've stopped taking ascorbi acid as well as magnesium chloride. Just to see if I would feel better. I stopped the flatulence, and the burping has been getting less by the day. I also was able to sleep well.

But the downside was that blood tests show that my uric acid is now a lot higher, and my LDH (a marker for tissue destruction ) is already much higher. This goes to show I still need the therapy. My guess is that the vitamin C is providing antioxidant activity to complement the action of uric acid in fighting oxidative stress from the lead in my kidneys. Without vitamin C, the body has to work extra hard to produce more uric acid, and it reqires a state of hypoxia which requires constricted blood vessels in the kidney, and this is resulting in higher blood pressure. Not surprisingly, my blood pressure has gone up as well in my protocol break.

I'm back this time on vitamin C (as well as magnesium chloride), but I'm using ascorbic acid mixed with baking soda on a 2:1 volume ratio, mixed in water and drinking the solution after it's done fizzing.

Now I know why Emergen-C fizzes.
 

xborg

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The most powerful form of C may be potassium ascorbate which uses the cell's natural sodium/potassium pump to usher potassium ascorbate directly into the cytoplasm. Sodium-buffered C is kept mainly on the outside of the cell by the same pumps.
K-ascorbate's discovery is an interesting story, has been studied for 40+ years, and is easy to make at home from potassium bicarbonate and ascorbic acid 2:1.
Reference: Potassium Ascorbate || Information - Fondazione Valsè Pantellini
 

Aspekt

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Have you read what Ray has to say about ascorbic acid? It doesn't look overly positive...

The alteration of production processes in vitamin E manufacture when the
evil soybean monopoly bought the industry from Eastman Chemical is
analogous to what happened earlier in the vitamin C industry, as profits
were maximized. The dramatic vitamin C studies in the 1930s often used
only 15 or 25 milligrams per day. In 1953, my first experience with it
(which was still sold as "cevitamic acid")involved 50 mg per day, and
over a period of just 2 or 3 days, my chronic awful poison oak allergy
disappeared. Up until this time, it was still too expensive to sell in
large doses. Around 1955 or '56, new manufacturing methods made it cheap
(and, for some reason, the name changed from cevitamic to ascorbic) and
the average tablet went up to 500 mg. The first time I tried the new
form, around 1956, I developed allergy symptoms within a couple of days.
Over the next 20 years, my own increased sensitivity to synthetic
ascorbate led me to look for such reactions in others. The same
people who reacted to it often reacted similarly to riboflavin and
rutin, which were also made from cornstarch by oxidation. I ascribed the
reaction to some industrial contaminant that they had in common,
possibly the heavy metals introduced with the sulfuric acid. The heavy
metal contamination of synthetic ascorbate is so great that one 500 mg
tablet dissolved in a liter of water produces free radicals at a rate
that would require a killing dose of x-rays to equal. The only clean and
safe vitamin C now available is that in fresh fruits, meats, etc. The
commercial stuff is seriously dangerous.

-Ray Peat, private correspondence via Ascorbic acid


A. Lazarow, "Protective effect of glutathione and cysteine against alloxan diabetes in the rat," Proc. Soc. Exp. Biol. & Med. 61, 441-447, 1946. [While certain doses of cysteine, glutathione, and thioglycolic acid completely prevented alloxan diabetes, it was interesting that all of the rats receiving ascorbic acid became diabetic. To me, this argues for the free radical cause of diabetes, rather than just the sulfhydryl oxidation. Lazarow suggested that succinic dehydrogenase, and various other sulfhydryl enzymes, including those involved in fatty acid oxidation, might be involved.]

Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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The most powerful form of C may be potassium ascorbate which uses the cell's natural sodium/potassium pump to usher potassium ascorbate directly into the cytoplasm. Sodium-buffered C is kept mainly on the outside of the cell by the same pumps.
K-ascorbate's discovery is an interesting story, has been studied for 40+ years, and is easy to make at home from potassium bicarbonate and ascorbic acid 2:1.
Reference: Potassium Ascorbate || Information - Fondazione Valsè Pantellini

Thank you. It is certainly worth trying. I have to source out potassium bicarbonate and test this. I've been thinking about getting liposomosal C from LivOn, as the liposomal allows Vitamin C to get into the intracellular area more easily. However, it is costly and it is costly to ship overseas. But if I can source out potassium bicarbonate locally, I can give this a try.

I was supposed to get magnesium ascorbate but ended up ordering magnesium citrate by mistake.

Have you read what Ray has to say about ascorbic acid? It doesn't look overly positive...



-Ray Peat, private correspondence via Ascorbic acid




Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context
Yes, I've read about Ray's negative views on ascorbic acid. It held me back from using ascorbic acid, as it was clear Ray was very concerned and certain that you couldn't get any synthetic ascorbic acid that didn't have lead contamination. And there was no information available to disprove his case.

But this is a case of lead being harmful, not of ascorbic acid being harmful. I had to finally just cross my fingers and go with using ascorbic acid, or its buffered forms, and hope that Ray is mistaken, and that there are sources of ascorbic acid that don't suffer from heavy lead contamination. I opted for a non-China source eventually, called Quali-C, which is made in Scotland. It says it's non-GMO as well. Unfortunately, it doesn't say it's lead-free, which I value more than non-GMO or non-China. I could probably do more diligence and correspond with Quali-C to get more information, but it's a little too detailed that in my scheme of things I didn't want to get into.
 

Dave Clark

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The most powerful form of C may be potassium ascorbate which uses the cell's natural sodium/potassium pump to usher potassium ascorbate directly into the cytoplasm. Sodium-buffered C is kept mainly on the outside of the cell by the same pumps.
K-ascorbate's discovery is an interesting story, has been studied for 40+ years, and is easy to make at home from potassium bicarbonate and ascorbic acid 2:1.
Reference: Potassium Ascorbate || Information - Fondazione Valsè Pantellini
I was interested in going this route. I am trying to search out a good clean ascorbic acid powder, and I already have potassium bicarbonate. Wondering how much potassium bicarbonate would be needed to buffer a teaspoon of ascorbic acid powder? I believe with sodium bicarbonate a quarter teaspoon is needed.
 
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I found liposomal a very effective way to get much more ascorbate absorbed and maintained in the body with much lower dosages. It is made with lecithin so it does have some pufa. You can make it at home or buy it. A much smaller dose of lipo C is equal to a large dose beyond bowel tolerance of ascorbic acid in my expierience.
 

xborg

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I was interested in going this route. I am trying to search out a good clean ascorbic acid powder, and I already have potassium bicarbonate. Wondering how much potassium bicarbonate would be needed to buffer a teaspoon of ascorbic acid powder? I believe with sodium bicarbonate a quarter teaspoon is needed.
The instructions are on the Pantellini site and are the same for sodium buffering: 2:1 buffer to C, by weight.
Pantellini uses 300mg KHCO3 + 150mg C. 300mg k-carb is 100mg elemental K, which is the maximum legal dose permitted in many places and likely the reason for the strength of their premeasured packets. Buffering 1tsp, or ~4500mg, of C would require 9000mg of KHCO3 (= 3000g of K), which is too much K for a single dose. Potassium ascorbate is strong and highly absorbable. Dose must be limited by a safe, single dose of K.

I use an electronic mg scale to make it using 1g KHCO3 + 575mg C as I find that a strict 2:1 ratio leaves my solution still a bit basic with leftover capacity to bind more C. That would yield about 333mg of elemental K, still orders of magnitude below a single dose of K that would be dangerous. To ensure complete reaction in a short time, they are mixed in a small amount of water, about 20-30ml.

My scale says 1 unit of KHCO3 is ~1.6 x heavier than that unit of C. So, to buffer 1/4 tsp of C one would need about (0.25 / 1.6 x 2) 0.31 tsp of KHCO3. So a rough measure by volume would be 1/3 t of KHCO3 to 1/4 t of C.

Taking this C on an empty stomach upon rising, I always feel a slightly warm, calm, subtle 'rush' throughout my bloodstream in about 5 minutes. I've used lipo and other forms of C without ever getting this effect. Lipo increases C's affinity for the lipid gateways in the cell walls. K-C leverages K/Na pumps to gain rapid and active entry.
 

Dave Clark

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The instructions are on the Pantellini site and are the same for sodium buffering: 2:1 buffer to C, by weight.
Pantellini uses 300mg KHCO3 + 150mg C. 300mg k-carb is 100mg elemental K, which is the maximum legal dose permitted in many places and likely the reason for the strength of their premeasured packets. Buffering 1tsp, or ~4500mg, of C would require 9000mg of KHCO3 (= 3000g of K), which is too much K for a single dose. Potassium ascorbate is strong and highly absorbable. Dose must be limited by a safe, single dose of K.

I use an electronic mg scale to make it using 1g KHCO3 + 575mg C as I find that a strict 2:1 ratio leaves my solution still a bit basic with leftover capacity to bind more C. That would yield about 333mg of elemental K, still orders of magnitude below a single dose of K that would be dangerous. To ensure complete reaction in a short time, they are mixed in a small amount of water, about 20-30ml.

My scale says 1 unit of KHCO3 is ~1.6 x heavier than that unit of C. So, to buffer 1/4 tsp of C one would need about (0.25 / 1.6 x 2) 0.31 tsp of KHCO3. So a rough measure by volume would be 1/3 t of KHCO3 to 1/4 t of C.

Taking this C on an empty stomach upon rising, I always feel a slightly warm, calm, subtle 'rush' throughout my bloodstream in about 5 minutes. I've used lipo and other forms of C without ever getting this effect. Lipo increases C's affinity for the lipid gateways in the cell walls. K-C leverages K/Na pumps to gain rapid and active entry.
Thanks for that info. Didn't realize it would be about 2:1 to buffer. By that I guess I will not be mega-dosing this type of ascorbate, but will be a good one to put into the vitamin C mix.
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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I found liposomal a very effective way to get much more ascorbate absorbed and maintained in the body with much lower dosages. It is made with lecithin so it does have some pufa. You can make it at home or buy it. A much smaller dose of lipo C is equal to a large dose beyond bowel tolerance of ascorbic acid in my expierience.
I was thinking of making my own but I couldn't find a high-PC (phosphatidylcholine) lecithin. Do you know where I could get a 21% PC lecithin?
 
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