RP Email Advice Comment: Androsterone-Associated Joint Pain

[goodandevil]

Subject: Heard you were looking for androsterone experiences

Me: "I experienced profound joint pain and arthropathy, a very severe creaking from every joint. I felt as though i'd aged 60 years in a week. Others have had similar experiences. Dmso may potentiate the hormone excessively. Haidut claims this effect is from lowering estrogen excessively, i rather doubt that. Best Regards, James"

Ray: "Thank you. I doubt the low estrogen theory."

 

[ecstatichamster]

very, very interesting...Ray is usually right. I wonder what it could be instead of low estrogen?

Here's a theory -- the body has low cortisol and that creates some inflammation from the catecholamines that are extant in the body and low cellular energy...without the ameliorating effect of cortisol...

 

[raypeatclips]

Did you question further what his opinion was?

 

[TheHound]

very, very interesting...Ray is usually right. I wonder what it could be instead of low estrogen?

Here's a theory -- the body has low cortisol and that creates some inflammation from the catecholamines that are extant in the body and low cellular energy...without the ameliorating effect of cortisol...

so the answer would be aspirin?

 

[schultz]

very, very interesting...Ray is usually right. I wonder what it could be instead of low estrogen?

Here's a theory -- the body has low cortisol and that creates some inflammation from the catecholamines that are extant in the body and low cellular energy...without the ameliorating effect of cortisol...

The low cortisol seems like a good theory and makes sense to me.

 

[goodandevil]

very, very interesting...Ray is usually right. I wonder what it could be instead of low estrogen?

Here's a theory -- the body has low cortisol and that creates some inflammation from the catecholamines that are extant in the body and low cellular energy...without the ameliorating effect of cortisol...

Hi no I didn't. I get the impression that ray is learning about androsterone himself, at least in these possibly higher activities due to the DMSO. If i remember correctly, it is the high-cortisol state that results in a deficiency of cortisone, since cortisol is being monopolized by the stress response and not converted. I dount any explanation of low estrogen causing undesirable effects, because this is exactly the type of mainstream view that ray fights against. he told me estrogen is necessary for breast development but nothing else. No titties for me, thank you.

 

[goodandevil]

Inflammation is one thing, arthropathy is another.

 

[goodandevil]

Did you question further what his opinion was?

Sorry meant to quote you above.

 

[Wagner83]

What dose did you use , where did you apply it and do you take other supplements?
How is your sex drive?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Low cortisol and adrenaline is I think responsible for these aches and also tiredness or lethargy if our rats take too much for their present body's capability.

My male rats get 3 drops on their scrotum plus 8 drops pansterone. Once per day. They are quite frisky and have strong libidos and erections. They do not have aches in their joints anymore.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Joint-pain is a prevalent and well-known side effect of all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA), used systemically in severe acne therapy. ATRA has signficant influence on
a lot of enzymes needed in androgen-metabolism. Maybe a connection can be deducted that way, any hypothesises?

 

[goodandevil]

Did you question further what his opinion was?

Hi this isn't necessarily ray's opinion but I've talked to a few other people regarding joint problems and DMSO supplements. The common factor seems to be DMSO.

@Wagner83 @raypeatclips I'm taking thyroid, fat soluble vitamins, cut back to just pansterone but i recently bought the pure pregnenolone and it feels much better. Talking to a number of people with joint pain using DMSO supplements, unfortunately the DMSO seems to be the culprit. my sex drive sucks but i've completely stopped the DMSO for a week and it does seem to be improving. I've had vision problems as well, a black spot in my left field of vision, like retinopathy. i have a severe endotoxin problem but ray did reference quite a few studies linking DMSO to ocular pathology. I think what ray says about DMSO is probably right and should be heeded, viz., that it should be avoided. Not like I believe in the FDA but there's no FDA-authorized use of it long term. Anyways i guess ray and the fda agree for once. I do think better supplements need to be available to the masses but from now on i'm avoidinv those with DMSO. Hope this helps.

 

[paymanz]

It can be that cartilages are weak,atrophied, joint lubricants/glycans are not sufficient to support joints.so with estrogen the body tries to fill joints with more water to reduce the contact and lessen the damage.
or the water by itself fills the joints because those joints simply has some room for it.

And with aromtas inhibition you prevent the defensive mechanism , hence joint pain and dryness.

These re only my guess.

The is also an article about mead acid and cartilage, showing its very beneficial for joints.

 

[DaveFoster]

Interesting input @goodandevil

Thanks for sharing.

Haidut argues that the concentration of DMSO from his supplements are too low to do any damage.

 

[goodandevil]

It can be that cartilages are weak,atrophied, joint lubricants/glycans are not sufficient to support joints.so with estrogen the body tries to fill joints with more water to reduce the contact and lessen the damage.
or the water by itself fills the joints because those joints simply has some room for it.

And with aromtas inhibition you prevent the defensive mechanism , hence joint pain and dryness.

These re only my guess.

The is also an article about mead acid and cartilage, showing its very beneficial for joints.

@paymanz
Ray has been very specific that the purported bone- and joint-protective effects of estrogen were an advertising gimmic. I'm sure mead acids are good if the body synthesis them from sugar, i believe.

 

[goodandevil]

Interesting input @goodandevil

Thanks for sharing.

Haidut argues that the concentration of DMSO from his supplements are too low to do any damage.

@DaveFoster
Glad to provide some interesting and hopefully useful input. haidut's helped me and has always answered my questions. Ray has expressed doubts on DMSO and stopped using it hinself. Perhaps it's useful acutely. i would like to see @haidut continue to succeed. i like his b vitamins very much. Ray has been very clear that there's no such thing as excessively low estrogen, and he has been very clear in his opposition to chronic or long-term use of DMSO. I feel that more attention should be paid to side effects of @haidut's supplements but that he should continue releasing new things. For example a sublingual alcohol solution may be a possibility. Personally, I'm done with DMSO.

 

[goodandevil]

Low cortisol and adrenaline is I think responsible for these aches and also tiredness or lethargy if our rats take too much for their present body's capability.

My male rats get 3 drops on their scrotum plus 8 drops pansterone. Once per day. They are quite frisky and have strong libidos and erections. They do not have aches in their joints anymore.

@ecstatichamster The skin irritation i had at first with DMSO has gone away but Ray makes a point: if something gives you rashes can it be that good for you long-term? i think androsterone is good but ray has cautioned against dmso. clearly there have been a lot of people with joint pain. Also quite clearly ray categorically rejects the notion that estrogen can be "too low". Therefore I would say the careful experimenter would be wise to take a break from DMSO to make certain they aren't experiencing side effects. Though I disagree with @haidut that low estrogen causes problems, I do agree that we must be responsible for our own bodies.

 

[Wagner83]

Hi this isn't necessarily ray's opinion but I've talked to a few other people regarding joint problems and DMSO supplements. The common factor seems to be DMSO.

@Wagner83 @raypeatclips I'm taking thyroid, fat soluble vitamins, cut back to just pansterone but i recently bought the pure pregnenolone and it feels much better. Talking to a number of people with joint pain using DMSO supplements, unfortunately the DMSO seems to be the culprit. my sex drive sucks but i've completely stopped the DMSO for a week and it does seem to be improving. I've had vision problems as well, a black spot in my left field of vision, like retinopathy. i have a severe endotoxin problem but ray did reference quite a few studies linking DMSO to ocular pathology. I think what ray says about DMSO is probably right and should be heeded, viz., that it should be avoided. Not like I believe in the FDA but there's no FDA-authorized use of it long term. Anyways i guess ray and the fda agree for once. I do think better supplements need to be available to the masses but from now on i'm avoidinv those with DMSO. Hope this helps.

Is dmso not used for arthritis ? I'm pretty sure I saw a good amount of anecdotical feedback for this, but concentration could be key. A lot of bodybuilders have experienced joint pain from using certain drugs/steroids, they don't use dmso.
I'm interested in your eyes problems , I used a good amount of dmso daily for a week in the past and stopped because of weird stuff happening behind / in my left eye, I sure hope the amount of dmso in haidut's supplements will be too low to cause this again. Lots of people don't experience this side effect though so go figure. Similar (worse) experience: Hair Loss Help Forums - DMSO damaged my eyes....be carefull !!

Also see here (The Human Toxicology Of Dimethyl Sulfoxide):

On November 11, 1965, research on DMSO in the United States came to an abrupt halt. A conference between the Food and Drug Administration and the pharmaceutical companies who were involved in the research was called because lens changes had been observed in a number of mammalian species. No changes ha been observed in man or any primates.

[...]
Dr. Scherbel, at Cleveland Clinic, had under treatment 44 cases of scleroderma. Their treatment was still continued under the new FDA rules. Some of these patients had received as much as 3 g/kg per day. Some were treated for as long as 23 months. Many lens abnormalities were observed in this group of patients, but none of those characteristically observed in the DMSO-treated animals. Therefore, the results of the examination of scleroderma cases were somewhat inconclusive.

And: Effects of dimethyl sulfoxide on ocular inflammation. - PubMed - NCBI

The anti-inflammatory properties of topical ocular dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) were investigated using a standard experimental model of an acute inflammatory ocular inflammation. Ninety percent and 100% DMSO aggravated the inflammatory response, 50% to 70% DMSO had similar responses as the control eye; however, 30% DMSO had definite anti-inflammatory properties. Dexamethasone 0.1% was superior to 30% DMSO as an anti-inflammatory agent. From this study it is evident that high concentrations of DMSO are irritating to the inflammatory ocular model used while lower concentrations have anti-inflammatory properties. The two side effects of skin irritation at the site of application and breath odor may be the subjective influence that leads certain patients to report a beneficial effect of DMSO treatment in ocular inflammation.


https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_much_DMSO_Dimethyl_Sulfoxide_should_one_use_and_what_how_much_is_safe (Ron Reiserer)
DMSO itself does pose a certain health hazard since it disrupts lipid membranes and denatures proteins.

I wonder if 11-keto-dht , pregnenolone , dhea and androsterone could be used efficiently under the tongue (without dmso). Of course being able to apply them directly on the testicles does seem to work better but I'm all for dmso free solutions. Dhea and pregnenolone should work if ingested .

 

[schultz]

I don't think I've had any negative side effects from the DMSO myself. Actually, I've never felt better but that could simply be the cumulation of all the things I've been doing for these last 4 or so years. It definitely didn't lower my sex. My libido is so high it's almost annoying.

Have you ever had joint problems in the past? It seems like such a profound effect to have your whole body ache like that, especially from just a few drops of Androsterone. Did you try going back on it to see if the joint pain returns? Or maybe try taking something else with DMSO in it to see if it is the DMSO that is causing the problems? Has the joint pain completely resolved itself now?

 

[Koveras]

Hi this isn't necessarily ray's opinion but I've talked to a few other people regarding joint problems and DMSO supplements. The common factor seems to be DMSO.

@Wagner83 @raypeatclips I'm taking thyroid, fat soluble vitamins, cut back to just pansterone but i recently bought the pure pregnenolone and it feels much better. Talking to a number of people with joint pain using DMSO supplements, unfortunately the DMSO seems to be the culprit. my sex drive sucks but i've completely stopped the DMSO for a week and it does seem to be improving. I've had vision problems as well, a black spot in my left field of vision, like retinopathy. i have a severe endotoxin problem but ray did reference quite a few studies linking DMSO to ocular pathology. I think what ray says about DMSO is probably right and should be heeded, viz., that it should be avoided. Not like I believe in the FDA but there's no FDA-authorized use of it long term. Anyways i guess ray and the fda agree for once. I do think better supplements need to be available to the masses but from now on i'm avoidinv those with DMSO. Hope this helps.

Interesting input @goodandevil

Thanks for sharing.

Haidut argues that the concentration of DMSO from his supplements are too low to do any damage.

I may end up writing a separate post related to this but glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) that are important for many structures (including joints and eyes) depend on proper functioning of the sulfation pathways. Excess demands on sulfur metabolism may stress those pathways depending on the availability of cofactors, genetic factors, endocrine factors, etc. May be why some people are more likely to experience issues with DMSO (the 'S' relating to the sulfur content).

Examples of GAGs:

Chondroitin sulfate – a very large molecule, is the most abundant GAG in the body. Found in cartilage, tendons, ligaments, bone, skin, arteries and the cornea. It is also located inside certain neurons and may provide an endoskeletal structure, helping to maintain their shape.
Keratin sulfate – found in loose connective tissue, cartilage, intervertebral discs, and the cornea.
Dermatan sulfate – a relatively small GAG is widely distributed in the body found in skin, blood vessels, heart valves and the cornea.
Heparan sulfate – found in lungs, blood vessels, basement membrane (a thin, delicate layer of connective tissue underlying the epithelium of many organs) and as ubiquitous component of cell membranes.
Heparin – unlike other GAGs that are extracellular compounds, heparin is an intracellular component of mast cells. Heparin is synthesized by and stored exclusively in mast cells that line arteries, liver, lungs and skin. When secreted into the blood it acts as an anti-coagulant.
Hyaluronic acid – is different from other GAGs as it is unsulfated, not covalently attached to protein and the only GAG not limited to animal tissue – also found in bacteria. Hyaluronic acid is found in synovial fluid of joints (acts as a lubricant, space filler wetting agent), eyes, skin, loose connective tissue and cartilage.