RP Email Advice Comment: Viruses

Discussion in 'Email Advice' started by EndAllDisease, Feb 19, 2016.

  1. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    Would cypro be more effective against "stomach bug" for the endotoxin, or antibiotic, do you think?
     
  2. haidut

    haidut Member

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    They have different modes of action, so can't really be compared. It like the comparison between antibiotic and charcoal - i.e. apples to oranges.
     
  3. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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  4. LeVere

    LeVere Member

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    To further speak to this I would argue that 'HIV' along with all the other viruses don't actually exist and what are called viruses are inseparable from celluar based stress/toxic factors. What is transmissible is stress and toxicity, not an actual virus. The Perth Group position on HIV/AIDS is much more tenable the Duesberg's who's position can actually get you into trouble because it is not internally consistent enough in scope. Regarding Lanka, who I very much agree with, if these things are endogenous they are not viruses in any literal physical sense. What exists is viral activity that can be differentiated by differing forms of stress and toxicity. Keep the V names if you want but do not pretend that they are literal exogenous viral life forms. I actually go a little further then Lanka and disagree with him that viruses only exist in simple cell forms like fungi. Unlike him I don't think that Phages are viruses either. I see these things as part of biosphere homeostasis involving vesicle dna propagation in a similar sense to what goes on within our own cells.

    To speak further to AIDS separately I take the PG position that it is mulitfactoral. It's not as simple as saying the things you say cause it. In a broad sense what we are talking about is some kind of morphostatic imbalance that can come about in several ways.
     
  5. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Well, AIDS isn't just one disease; AIDS is a group of diseases. If someone has pneumonia and tests HIV+, then they have "AIDS". If a person gets pneumonia and tests HIV-, then they have pneumonia.

    Koposi's Sarcoma is caused by amyl nitrates; the mechanism is well understood. If you take poppers, get Kaposi's Sarcoma, and test HIV+, then you have "AIDS".

    There are many other ways to get "AIDS" as well; taking popper's isn't the only way.

    The easiest way to die from AIDS is to take AZT.
     
  6. LeVere

    LeVere Member

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    I would say that 'AIDS' is really just a morphostatic energy based breakdown that has nothing to do with 'immunity'. Stefan Lanka sees it as an energy problem not an immunity problem and I think he is on the less wrong track. I agree for the most part on KS and nitrates particularly as they were used in the 70s and part of the 80s in the gay club scene. I agree on AZT though when it comes to the revised ARVs of the mid to late 90s through to today I do acknowledge that they have played a role as reducing agents barring a better more functional health based approach. The Duesberg types like those on rethinking aids tend to get irrationally absolutist against the drugs. Even though I come from the more radical Perth Group position on HIV/AIDS I do call a spade a spade though the reason why I think these drugs work is VERY different from the HIV/AIDS orthodoxy who think there is an actual virus that is being acted against.
     
  7. Travis

    Travis Member

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    I think it's a diagnostic problem: a re-labeling of old diseases with a nonspecific test guaranteed to give 'false' positives.
    That's not to say that some drug users (illicit and pharmaceutical) didn't suffer from an immune deficiency. This is obvious since these people are taking drugs and probably not eating and sleeping well.

    Hardly nothing to do with a so-called retrovirus. There are so many contradictions in the AIDS Literature that it cannot possible be what they say it is.

    I have some virus books on my reading list. I would like to know more about them. I am fairly certain that some of them aren't exactly what they say they are; whether they be artifacts or endogenously produced polynucleotides. I think Lanka says the so-called Polio Virus is an artifact of cellular material being forced through the pores of a very fine filter during 'isolation'. This is highly interesting. You will find that researches went through great lengths to prove that Polio was infectious. If it were really an infectious entity, they why did thy find it necessary to inject so much of it directly into the brains of primates? You would think that a few nanomoles of it aspirated up their noses would have been sufficient.

    Stephen Lanka seems cool. I have only read Duesberg's Classic Book, a book called Virus Mania, and lots of material from VirusMyth.com. They all make wonderful points; the Perth Group gets into diagnostics and epistemology more than Duesberg, who destroys they Myth entirely from the point-of-view of Established Virology. I have read more from Kary Mullis that I have from Stephen Lanka.

    I have another book in the pipeline. We'll see if I get around to reading it. I think it was mentioned on this website here, but I cannot remember the title.
     
  8. haidut

    haidut Member

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    With the caveat that I am not endorsing her blog in any way, have you looked at Jennifer Lake's posts on polio?
    Was the Polio Vaccine a Radiation Experiment?

    I think Peat said the same thing in one of his articles - Mad Cow and other prion diseases, polio, and a number of other paralytic conditions match perfectly the maps of radiaoactive fallouts around the world.
     
  9. Travis

    Travis Member

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    A longer treatment can be found here (links to the articles above):
    I am going to read this article after a tobacco break; it is long. I will just say one criticism of this theory before I read this: Polio was more concentrated on the East Coast, correct?

    I think it was either radiation, pesticides, or vaccines that caused polio. You simply don't get infectious diseases localized across time and space like this. Where was Polio, say, in the rest of the world during the rest of history?

    You can find scientific articles on how arsenic paralyzes the hind-limbs of animals. Lead arsenate was used as a insecticide in the 50's.

    DDT is another candidate:ddt.png Molecules of this type can cause paralysis. The well-known Jake Leg Condition was caused by tricresyl phosphate, an adulterant in a bootleg 1920's alcoholic drink (not exactly bootleg, but a medicinal high-alcohol drink, Jamaica Ginger, that circumvented prohibition since it was 'medicinal'.)tricresyl phosphate.png This molecule has been proven to cause paralysis of the legs.

    So now I'm considering three possible causes of Polio: lead arsenate, DDT, and radiation. Interestingly, DDT was used to spray cattle (for fly repulsion) during the time the preceded Mad Cow Disease. This is something to consider as well in the etiology of that condition.

    Perhaps Polio was used to mask disabilities caused by all three of these things. Perhaps it is too simple-minded to think that Polio had only one cause. In the hysteria of the 50's, any case of paralysis would likely have fallen under the ægis of a Polio diagnosis.

    Either way, I think that a virus is the least-likely cause of so-called Polio.
     
  10. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    It's got to be worth something that you are in contact with someone who has the flu, and then two days later you also have it. Happened to me a few times, this year it happened and I even shot up to 105 but I didn't visit the doctor because everyone was getting better after five-six days, and sure enough I was fine after five-six days.
     
  11. tara

    tara Member

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    I don't think anyone claims that viruses are exogenous life forms, do they?
    The standard model is that they are infectious agents, comprising importantly a bit of genetic material, that can get themselves reproduced inside the cells of life forms - eg animals, plants, bacteria. They can't do any of the other things that define life.
     
  12. Regina

    Regina Member

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    In her book, Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines and the Forgotten History, Suzanne Humphries implicates DDT.
    I think probably many polio diagnoses were mis-diagnosed Lyme's too.
     
  13. tara

    tara Member

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    +1.

    And some of the other illnesses that show clear patterns of infections. HIV, SARS, chicken pox, small pox, norovirus, foot and mouth disease, ...
    I'm rather glad that at least some relevant people are taking various viruses seriously as infectious agents.

    That doesn't mean there can't also have been some mistakes, misdiagnoses, and other confounding and contributing factors in these diseases.

    The important part is that they have something that is reproducible and transmissible.
     
  14. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    But I did feel better with charcoal... (didn't lower the fever)
     
  15. tara

    tara Member

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    I'll be drinking charcoal next time I get the 'flu too.
     
  16. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Well, Polio certainly isn't infectious. Even the CDC's virologists will admit that. So then: how possibly could there have been an 'epidemic' of a noninfectious disease?

    It has the hallmarks of being the modern industrial scapegoat: you cannot sue a virus.

    I finished those articles and they are interesting. What I consider the most important quote is from Dr. Ralph Scobey:
    This is like autism. A fashionable trend in diagnosis can blur the lines between different conditions. I think that all of the aforementioned chemicals (plus radiation) were responsible for causing Polio diagnosis in many cases (if not all).
     
  17. LeVere

    LeVere Member

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    It's more then a diagnostic problem it's a paradigm problem in my view. I would again argue that the issue is morphostatic imbalance and bioenergy deficiency then an 'immune' deficiency. I would argue that clear on back to Mechnikov an 'immune' system was never discovered. Mechnikov simply discovered phagocytes(which do exist) but inferred the wrong conclusions based on the prevalence of the germ theory. The ultimate problem with HIV/AIDS is that there is no foundation of any sort for the V and I part of the acronym.

    In terms of endogeny and viruses Lanka argues that all so called viruses are really just endogenously generated sequences. His perennial argument is that viruses do not exist in complex cellular life. He makes an exception for more simple celled life and sees things like phages as actual existent viruses(I actually disagree with him on that). For me the guy who has done fairly definitive work on polio is Jim West. His independent research on digging up the works of Scobey and Biskind have been impeccable. He also agrees with the non virus hypothesis.

    The issue I have with Duesberg is that ultimately he never leaves the house of virology. He will never go to the level of rejecting it as such due to his legacy within it. It's sad because they have largely rejected him as a pariah at this point. It would be a big help if he went all the way to the Perth Group side of the spectrum which is more radical and internally consistent as well as backed up by evidence.
     
  18. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yeah, but Duesberg is still cool. This was the first book that I had read on the subject. Inventing the AIDS Virus has a hard-headed logical authoritarian feel that will convince people that wont be convinced by the Perth Group.
     
  19. LeVere

    LeVere Member

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    Well maybe not life forms but certainly exogenous existence is the standard assumption and virology does try to concoct an evolutionary history of these 'exogenous infectious agents'. I reject that there exists exogenous viral pathogens. I think there are pathogenic viral processes that can be genetically mapped out but the source is always endogenous and linked to stress and toxicity. The outsider is the toxin. As Jim West argues virologists can never separate these infectious agents from either stress or toxicology. That's the factor that undoes much of their discourse. There was a poster on the now defunct questioningaids who makes a convincing argument that what 'viruses' actually are are different forms dna/rna cellular regulation. When a toxic/stress perturbance happens these latent regulators go into overdrive and overproduce and overtranscribe. I'll leave a link to his posting body of work which he sadly did not make more public or further flesh out.

    http://forums.questioningaids.com/search.php?searchid=260597&pp=

    To speak to your other point about infection, I actually don't deny germ or viral infection and contagion. I simply see that stress and cell to cell communication from the stressed to the non stressed play a key role in this as opposed to this reductionist idea of an local infecting agent. That's how contagion happens in my view. It's a dynamic relational process of cell to cell communication. What you will find is that contagion tends to have an epicenter which peters out overtime simply due to tertiary positioned contact not being affected in the same way as the primary infected. There's a reason why Ebola has never mimiced a holywood movie like outbreak or contagion. Where you have something like that(say 1918) there's usually some kind of total war high stress environment going on. There's always some truth to myths.
     
  20. LeVere

    LeVere Member

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    He may have been 20+ years ago as part of a gateway drug for various people however at this point I actually think his perennial position does not help. The notion of a 'harmless passenger virus' simply doesn't make sense from either extreme. The Perth Group have gone after him hard for that and the inner dissident debate on pathogenic virus vs no virus has led hiv/aids dissidence pretty much splintering off. I've been interested in that debate for a while now and what I notice is that virologists when pushed will always go back to first principle foundations when they are on the ropes. The PG and Lanka are in a better position to counter this then someone like Duesberg who simply will not let go of virology. At this point a gateway is no longer useful if it leads to a dead end. I also think the legacy of never taking the coctails has turned out to be harmful to some degree. You can only explain away dead dissidents for so long and you have those like Jonathan Barnett who did eventually go back on them albeit with a dissident mindset of coctail holidays and use of natural alternatives.

    I myself think the later 90s drugs do work and can help keep affected people alive barring better alternatives, BUT, my explanation for why the drugs can be effective under certain circumstances is VERY different from the orthodoxy.
     
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