KMUD: Aging and Energy Reversal (2013)

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  1. loess

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    Raymond Peat, Ph.D.

    AGING AND ENERGY REVERSAL
    KMUD “Ask Your Herb Doctor” (2013)

    HD - Andrew Murray
    RP - Ray Peat

    HD: For those who just tuned in, could you give an outline of your academic and professional background?

    RP: In the sixties, I had been working in linguistics. But on my own studying, I was very interested in general questions of aging, and the brain in particular, and how the brain makes consciousness and language possible, and how that changes during maturation and aging. So,I enrolled at the University of Oregon, thinking I would study brain biology, in 1968, and found that the brain biology people were extremely dogmatic, thinking in terms only of genetic control, membrane functions, and nothing much in between. And I looked around at the department and found out that the reproductive biologists seemed to be more scientific and actually looking for an explanation, rather than trying to explain things in terms of what they believed they knew. So I worked on reproductive aging, and our lab specialized in the female aging. And I concentrated on the energy oxidative metabolism and the changes occurring in the uterus with aging, and I found that all kinds of stress converge with the changes that you see during aging, especially in the reproductive system. It was like the lining of the uterus was a very good model for the things that happen in the brain and the whole organism. And all types of stress, from radiation to bad diet, vitamin E deficiency, deficiency of oxygen, all of these things mimic the changes that you see in aging. And, basically that's the area that I’ve been thinking about a lot ever since.

    HD: OK, good. To open up the subject of aging, in light of the research that was broadcast in an article produced by Harvard, if we want to talk about the two types of interactions that happen in the aging process, in terms of the interaction with DNA, with methylation as an additive process, which degrades the DNA, and the acetylation, which apparently is more protective. They talk about an epigenetic modification; we've mentioned in the past, that unlike most modern thinking that would tell us that we are a result of our genetics and there's nothing much we can do about it, I know that you've found many different research articles that have proved beyond doubt that there very much is something that can be done, and the environment, in its own right, has its own effects on the genes, even at very local and a very time dependent manner, so it's not a case of the genes being fixed in time and space and immutable, but that definitely changes can be done in a relatively short space of time. So, when the articles talk about epigenetic modification involved in gene expression — for example, so, perhaps, stave off cancer, or even allow the cancer to exist — would you explain what that is, that epigenetic modification?

    RP: Luther Burbank was a person who explored the influence of the environment. Many biologists, from the time of Lamarck, found through Barbara McClintock — who was ignored until just about twenty years ago (they sort of pulled her out of obscurity before she died) — these people had demonstrated that the need for a function could elicit the function in an organism. So that a stressful environment would cause changes in the chromosomes. Barbara McClintock referred to "jumping genes", but these things were actual movement of DNA elicited by stress in the environment. And all of these people, for almost two hundred years, were excluded from science by a very dogmatic view of genetics. All of the dogmatic views of the geneticists of the 20th century are now defunct completely. But they live on in practice in medicine. Last year, several dozen people have asked me what to do, because they've discovered that there are mutant DNA tests. There are a couple of popular genes that almost everyone has a mutated form of, but actually these make almost no difference in health or function. Very slight nutritional requirement difference. If you look at identical twins, despite that fact that all of their DNA is identical and they experience the same environment in the uterus, and most of them experience very similar environments because of their social economic level…despite all of those genetic and environment overlaps, when you look at a serious disease, there is very little overlap. For example, if one twin has rheumatoid arthritis, there's only a 12% incidence of it in the other twin. And that's now well recognized, but still the gene testing industry is trying to sell the idea that you get sick if you have certain mutated genes.

    HD: So you’re saying it’s more a product of the environment perhaps in that arthritic type of situation perhaps?

    RP: Yeah, and constantly, like, they put 40 mice I think was in a stimulating environment and found that just by the choices they made in their daily life they became very different in personality and behavior, just by where they happened to go in the environment influencing what they learned, and over their lifetime they became very recognizable individuals. And that would really upset medicine if they had to consider everyone as a unique individual, all the way down to the way their genes worked, because there would be no...

    HD: It would be too considerate....

    RP: Yeah, no exact definition of a disease, it would be "your disease, this month”.

    HD: Yeah, yeah, interesting. I wonder what it is in the animals in that mice study perhaps that made the individual mice do things differently that gave them the better outcome there?

    RP: Possibly just which one was the first one to be weaned and wander off and have an experience and that stimulated them in a way that the others didn't experience. The genes are being used constantly, everything you do is using your genes in a certain way, that varies according to whether you're awake or asleep for example. But if you're starving, day after day, this is going to pull up an accumulation of changes, not just the quick on-and-off effect of day and night, or incidental experiences, but it will accumulate sort of an inertia and layer after layer will be laid down in the stuff around your genes, attaching carbon atoms to the DNA itself, and attaching a great variety of molecules to the proteins that handle the genes, the histones that surround the chromosomes and move the genes to make them accessible for copying and functioning. These are relatively easy to change, the methylation is a little more sluggish, and when you are in an extremely stressful situation a lot of your genes get turned off (methylated especially), and those can be identified in the chromosomes that you inherit from your father or mother specifically. So if your father had a very hard life, you can identify the highly methylated genes in your chromosomes that came from that hard life.

    HD: So that's inheritable then?

    RP: Yeah. And in animal experiments it takes several generations for a very bad generation's experience to be removed when they're put into a normal environment. But if you put them into a super-environment like the…

    HD: Enriched environment.

    RP: Enriched, yeah, it's very stimulating, you can repair the previous generation's damage very quickly, and some nutrients and drugs can do that, remove methyl groups from the DNA and attach more of the opening groups to the histones.

    HD: Dr. Raymond Peat is a specialist in hormone physiology and the aging process, having studied it for the last 35 years or so. Let’s go on then to what you’ve mentioned about methylation and demethylation and how that occurs, how that affects the gene, how it silences it, how it allows tumors to grow and how they have just found now in this piece of research the very presence of this is a very diagnostic indicator of how well the tumor will continue to grow and how switching this off is actually a fairly new approach to cancer therapy. So in terms of the process of methylation and how this happens and how this is also related to the train of thought that fasting is good for you and going without is actually fairly healthful and if you starve yourself fairly regularly and live on a meager caloric intake you'll actually have a greater chance of longevity. That's not actually true is it?

    RP: No. It was definite about 70 years ago a researcher named Clive McCay I think it was showed that restricting food supply made animals live longer. But later people restricted the type of food, kept down the heavy metals in their diet alone and let them eat all the fat, protein and carbohydrate they wanted and they lived longer.

    CALLER: My question is not about tonight's subject. My question is about estrogen and the reduction of estrogen or if there are any herbs that can function as an aromatase inhibitor. My situation is that I am in a high estrogen state. I'm in my 40's but I am already post menopausal. I entered menopause very early at about the age of 40. I have been diagnosed this year with Hashimoto and I have gained a lot of weight like 40 pounds in just 3 years. Since the menopause I was also told I probably had the Hashimoto for 3 years or so. I have gone from 99 pounds to 139 in just 3 years. My progesterone is very low even though I am supplementing with Progest-E. And very high SSH and LH. I'm under a lot of stress so even though the blood has shown the estrogen as low as 12, I believe it is only because it is trapped in the cells. I don't believe I have high estrogen, I don't see how I could considering I'm fat, I'm under stress, I have digestive problems and a lot of other issues. So since I can't raise the progesterone even with supplementation and diet such as raw carrots, low fiber, I still cannot pull it up. Would you suggest that perhaps I should take something as an aromatase inhibitor.

    HD: The main aromatase inhibitor that I'm familiar with is from nettle root and that's really used as a kind of prostatic agent in men to treat benign prostatic hypertrophy by blocking that enzyme. In terms of your condition and what you said about the weight gain and your age, it's not uncommon for what you’re saying to occur. I think it happens fairly commonly. Dr. Peat, in terms of this lady's supposed low progesterone levels and the estrogen she's been exposed to having gone into early menopause at 40, I know you'd probably be looking at her thyroid function as a main route with which to treat her situation in terms of her possible now Hashimoto’s diagnosis.

    RP: Almost everyone around the age of 40, that's when the highest ratio of estrogen to progesterone exists. But the trouble is if the estrogen seems to drop when measured in the serum, even though it was at its very highest lifetime level around the age of 40. When progesterone falls the estrogen can't be released from the cell and so it doesn't appear in the serum until progesterone affects the cells to release it so that it can be measured but that means even without taking something to increase your progesterone, the aromatase inhibitors are very practical and logical. Two fruits that contain effective aromatase inhibitors are oranges and guavas. Apigenins. Naringenin in oranges and then in guavas there's one called apigenin. And aspirin by blocking the production inflammatory prostaglandins, aspirin helps. The supplement pregnenolone is indirectly able to increase your progesterone and lower the estrogen production.

    CALLER: The pregnenolone is a precursor to DHEA, correct?

    RP: It's what?

    HD: A precursor, yeah it's...

    RP: Oh, precursor.

    CALLER: Right. My DHEA levels are quite high. So would taking pregnenolone make it even higher?

    RP: No, when your estrogen is not being controlled, it likely over activates your adrenals. DHEA tends to go up with cortisol. And cortisol is a major activator of aromatase and the function of pregnenolone is to lower the excess cortisol and prevent the overstimulation of aromatase.

    CALLER: OK. So if the pregnenolone, being the precursor to DHEA - and you explained how that works - but the DHEA is also the precursor to estrogen. So how would I keep it from producing even more estrogen?

    RP: Sometimes the pregnenolone in itself can do that by lowering the stress hormones which drive the adrenal glands too hard. And the diet to correct your low thyroid function is probably the basic thing. Estrogen causes basically inflammation of the thyroid gland. It inhibits the ability to secrete thyroid hormone while allowing it to synthesize it and respond to thyroid stimulating hormone. And progesterone is needed for the gland to secrete. So you want to do things that lower the stress on your thyroid. And polyunsaturated fats are probably the most important factor in blocking the thyroid other than estrogen.

    CALLER: Right. I have eliminated those now. OK, well thank you very much I appreciate your help.

    RP: Calcium in the diet is a very important thing for keeping your metabolic rate up and helping to loose weight.

    CALLER: How much calcium should I have per day?

    RP: 2 quarts of low fat milk will provide a pretty ideal amount of calcium.

    CALLER: OK. Low fat milk. OK. Would that amount be influenced by the fact that I have low stomach acid and I don't have a gall bladder. So I don't absorb nutrients as well.

    RP: Yeah, with 1% milk there's enough to slow the absorption of the sugar and protein slightly, but not enough fat to upset your gall bladder.

    CALLER: OK. Thank you very much I appreciate that.

    HD: You are very welcome.

    CALLER: Bye bye.

    HD: Bye bye. There is another caller on the air so let's take this next caller.

    CALLER: I just started something that might be helpful to all of us and Dr. Peat has really helped me a lot on this and he's discussed this quite a bit, but you know we're at the lowest point in getting sunlight. We're getting close to the winter equinox and I've really been experimenting a lot with the red light. You know using the heat lamps. That is basically like a chicken light that you would go buy at a hardware store and having a reflector on it. And really trying to get more of that light each day so that anybody that is having any kind of problems, a lot of the problems could be coming from the low light situation so this might be a good place to start. I just wanted to start with that. But the other thing, I just have a few questions about food in general and also about aspirin since you brought up aspirin. One of the problems with buying different brands like Bayer and different things, it seems like they have a lot of additives in them and so I've explored different ways of getting aspirin that is pure aspirin. Looks like the only place you can actually buy that is through pet supply places which always feels a little weird buying it that way. Then the other thing, and Andrew you probably know quite a bit about this as well, willow bark which I guess is really the source of where Bayer aspirin originally got their molecule structure to create the source, salicylic acid.

    HD: Yeah, meadowsweet is also another very rich source of acetylsalicylic, salicylic acid. But I think it was probably the willow bark where it was first synthesized.

    CALLER: So I'm just curious Dr. Peat, what do you think about using the willow bark rather than trying to use some of these aspirin that have all of the fillers and different silicate materials in them.

    RP: The fillers definitely aren't good. If you have access to nothing but the pills, I think you should dissolve them in hot water to let the junk settle out and then just drink the sour water.

    CALLER: OK. I've never thought of that.

    HD: There are quite a few chemical supply companies that will sell it. It's not anything that's a controlled substance. Dr. Peat, aspirin's not a controlled substance at this point in time is it?

    RP: No.

    CALLER: OK, well that's good. I've done a lot of different searches and called a lot of places and it seems like the only place you can find it is like pet supply which it seems like in America sometimes they treat pets better than they do people.

    HD: They don't give them as many additives that's for sure probably. Yeah you definitely can get pure aspirin.

    CALLER: The other thing I wanted to ask about was on pressure cooking and canning and the reason I'm thinking along those lines is you know we just kinda live in crazy times. So I've been thinking about trying to come up with some foods that could be canned, like in mason jars, and I bought a pressure cooker. And so I want to just try this one recipe that I'm thinking about doing out and it would be potatoes, kale, garlic, onion. And I'm thinking about also using ground lamb, and then either cooking that in the pressure cooker in the jar or cooking it before and I'm just curious if you have any thoughts about that.

    HD: I would think the main thought about that is the onion and garlic side of it.

    RP: OK. So we would rather not put the onion and garlic in there?

    HD: Well just because some people are fairly sensitive to it. They may not even notice the onions and the garlic that are doing it. It's like people eating a lot of vegetables and then having a lot of flatulence and thinking it's quite normal. It's actually not good for you so you are probably better off without it. I think that's the logic.

    CALLER: Do you think, Dr. Peat, that the nutrition aspects of the canning would harm the foods?

    RP: Oh, no. There were experiments in the 1940's in which rats were fed stuff out of cans — the usual vegetables, beans, corn, all the standard vegetables — and others were fed the same vegetables fresh and raw. And the animals eating the canned vegetables thrived and the others didn't.

    CALLER: I’m thinking that the potatoes, because you talk about potatoes being a fairly decent protein, even though I know the starch is a little bit of a problem, but if it's cooked really well. And I'm thinking that the kale is a real good source of minerals and vitamin K, and then the lamb stock and the protein in the lamb would all be really good.

    RP: Yeah, the boiled cooked green leaves are extremely good nutritionally, especially to balance meat because the greens contain very little phosphate and the meat contains too much phosphate and too little calcium. So you have a balance when you have greens with meat.

    CALLER: Seems like a fairly nutritious product. And then just one other thing, I was curious about calcium chloride. What do you think about it?

    RP: It's been used for making pickles and such. It has a nice taste when it is added to food, but a lot of people are sensitive either to magnesium chloride or calcium chloride. So it's good to be cautious with it. It can cause headaches, and bowel symptoms of various types.

    CALLER: So, if I don't sense any symptoms from it, it's probably fine?

    Ray: Yeah; if it's chemically pure, it's good as a food additive.

    CALLER: OK.

    HD: Thanks for your call. Dr. Peat, between methylation and the compounds that would be useful that were brought out in the article, I know they talked about things like curcumin, from tumeric. They mentioned resveratrol, genestin, and daidzin, which were other compounds that were useful in switching off that methylation. Do you have any other thoughts on it?

    RP: The caller mentioned the importance of light. Even light can help to reverse the toxic methylation that happens from stress.

    HD: To switch off that excitotoxicity (neurons becoming too excited and that's just as bad as being inactive). So, in terms of methylation, it's a bad process that happens to the genes. It can happen through various mechanisms, not least of which can be nutritional. But, you've mentioned things like red light. I know we’re talked in the past in great detail about thyroid hormone. Are there any other things that would be counterproductive that you could use to counter the methylation in the genetics?

    RP: Some of the people who have been told that they have mutated genes are being told by their doctors that they need to eat lots of methyl groups — choline and methionine in particular — to make up for the weak genes enzymes. But the American college of medical genetics recently said that mutation doesn't call basically for any treatment. It's not significant clinically. But they didn't mention that the people with that so-called mutation have a lower incidence of cancer, and this probably relates to what we're talking about. The epigenetic methylation of the genes of the people who have a slightly weaker methylation system are better off for cancer risk.

    HD: I wanted to bring up 2 compounds, that are actually anesthetics, lidocaine and procaine, kind of related to the cocaine type of structure. So both lidocaine and procaine have a demethylation activity for the DNA. Is that right?

    RP: Yeah. These are being studied in several types of cancer. Prostate, breast, pancreas, lung and melanoma are the ones I've seen, and it's effects are just dramatic for reversing those changes that are characteristic of the cancer. So it is being considered as an important new approach to cancer treatment. But it's so cheap that no one is very enthusiastic about applying to the FDA.

    HD: It definitely hasn't got a patent on it still, correct?

    RP: No, and it costs maybe a quarter a day or something.

    HD: OK, well the other thing in that BBC article they mentioned NAD being the molecule that was responsible here. And, if I'm right in thinking, that this compound can be synthesized from tryptophan. Now I don't want to get confused here now. Have I not heard you mention that excess tryptophan is not good for you?

    RP: Yeah, women in particular are very susceptible to too much tryptophan. They used to be the victims of pellagra much more often than men. That's because estrogen redirects the metabolism of tryptophan into serotonin rather than niacin or niacinamide. When corn is treated with — alkalized — to make hominy or tortillas, the chemistry shifts it over in that pathway to make niacin out of it and doesn't let so much serotonin be formed.

    HD: There was another chemical, aspartic acid, I also saw that was a good source from which NAD could be synthesized. And that was from asparagus and asparagus juice in particular.

    RP: Well, you don't want to take plain aspartic acid or even with minerals because it's an excitotoxin in itself.

    HD: How about asparagus juice as a source of it I wonder.

    RP: Oh it's fine. And another amino acid that's being promoted a lot in the internet world is either arginine or citrulline to increase your nitric oxide. That's going exactly in the wrong direction epigenetically. And the vitamin B6 is needed to prevent tryptophan being turned into too much serotonin and to help turn it into niacinamide. And simply supplementing niacinamide is a very direct way to help reverse these epigenetic problems. Five years ago when the Harvard people were starting a drug company, I think it was called Sirtris, which was bought by a big drug company, Glaxo, and they dumped it this year and went on to something else.

    HD: They said that some of the chemicals that were uncovered might be useful in the future.

    RP: At the time the people promoting resveratrol through that company as an anti-aging chemical were warning that niacinamide antagonized resveratrol and lowered the sirtuins, and that therefore niacinamide would accelerate aging. But I think now they've changed their story. Even at that time, five years ago, it was very clear that niacinamide greatly extended cell life, just a tremendous increase in human cell longevity in vitro. And it's very safe so it can be used in all of these epigenetic problems — Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, various types of cancer and so on. And it's interesting that all of these substances that have been known, some of them for thousands of years, as anti-inflammatory drugs. They all turn out to work in the same direction, protecting us from over-methylation and over-removal of the acetyl groups from the histones.

    HD: OK Dr. Peat, we have a couple more callers. Let’s take the next caller. You are on the air and where are you from?

    [show engineer]: Actually someone called in. Quick question I'll ask for them: What is the use of Lidocaine and how is it administered and what sort of doses are there? And then there's another caller.

    HD: Right. Not sure about the dose.

    [show engineer]: Lidocaine for cancer was the question.

    RP: These studies have been done in many different ways. But I've had several sort of random experiences with both Procaine and Lidocaine that were really just amazing to me. For example, a girl with life time terrible eczema, red and scaly all over; she put a hand full of I think it was rubbing alcohol mostly with some Novocaine in it and stroked it up her shin. And with at same speed that her hand moved up her shin a wave of normal looking skin appeared right behind it. And it stayed that way. And I've seen people with terrible burns. If they could get it on in the first minute or so the burn stopped and didn't develop. It has anti-histamine, anti-serotonin effects, stopping inflammation in its tracks. But what it´s doing — all of these well known anti-inflammatory things are also undoing the limiting and harmful genetic changes that are caused by injury.

    HD: Yeah, it's almost as if the perception of pain itself accelerates the damage and the inflammation from that which caused the pain and inflammation in the first place. It's like a…

    RP: The nerves increase the release of the inflammatory materials.

    HD: Yeah, if you can block the signaling of pain you can greatly reduce the symptoms of whatever the insult was in the first place. Interesting. We mentioned the NAD can by synthesized from tryptophan. Too much tryptophan is not good especially in women with estrogen related problems. And then the other thing was the asparagus juice which also could be a source of a synthesis from that into NAD. Well, you've also mentioned — I’ve read a couple of articles about how aspirin enhances the de-acetylation of the histones and the histones are these coils within a chromosome that kind of bundled up the DNA. And then aspirin itself was shown to greatly potentiate the effect of the de-acetylation. And I know you've mentioned — you talk about aspirin a lot as being a very useful, very good anti-inflammatory. Very inexpensive and not at all to be considered as a life threatening drug that will thin your blood and cause hemorrhage. But what do you think about the co-administration of aspirin along with that deacetylate inhibitor?

    RP: I think it works by itself or with any of the other protective inhibitors. Caffeine has some of the same effects. And Aspirin and caffeine have been used together in a lot of products. So a combination. All of these seem to work synergistically rather than interfering with each other.

    HD: I think we want to move on to the anthraquinones as a pretty interesting group of chemicals. I know pau d'arco is been one of these chemicals that has got a long history of anti-cancer use. But talk about emodin as a compound. This anthraquinone, the chemical that gives the reddish color to those types of chemicals that have that laxative effect, so both cascara and emodin and how they work.

    RP: If you look at the molecule for pau d'arco or, is that the same as lapacho?

    HD: Yeah.

    RP: If you put vitamin K and emodin and lapacho in a row and tetracycline (the antibiotic which is an anti-inflammatory), they're essentially the same structure with a different number of rings. But it's like each one is an analog of the other and each one has properties overlapping with those of the other — anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer, anti-stress.

    HD: Can I hold you there? I think there's three callers on the line now. Let's take the first caller.

    CALLER: I have a problem. A couple of years ago I scalded myself on my abdomen while I was cooking chicken. And the oil from the pan got on my abdomen and a blister formed. And this blister was bulbous, and since that time at intervals I've had blisters form again and again in the same location. And they've even spread a little bit. I also have the problem where if I put adhesive tape like a band-aid on my abdomen in that area, the skin comes off.

    HD: Yeah, it’s very loosely connected to the underlying membrane.

    CALLER: Yes and the blisters aren't a great problem, it's frequently having to go through the process of healing from an open wound afterwards.

    HD: How long after the initial accident have you found these episodes again?

    CALLER: It started occurring like four months afterwards. The actual blister went away and then one day I noticed I'd taken a shower and you know I noticed there was a blister forming and it got very bulbous, about the size a silver dollar or bigger. And now it happens so frequently as there is like scar tissue there. It still blisters.

    HD: Dr. Peat, this sounds very much like a kind of genetic imprinting, a memory.

    RP: Yeah, I think the nervous system is probably involved in helping with the memory and there is a…

    CALLER: All the skin doctors can say is “we can replace the skin there”, and I don't think that's an appropriate…

    RP: And there is a little known branch of medicine. I think it was a German who originated it, I think it was called neural therapy, something like that, but it involved finding key points and injecting procaine or other local anesthetic to change the nervous system. And I've seen a great variety of good results from applying any of the local anesthetics topically too. It apparently helps to retrain the memory of the tissue so that it stops producing the recurrent problem such as an ingrown toenail or recurring boils in the surface location. There are a lot of fairly strong local anesthetic ointments sold over the counter. I think benzocaine in the small area is effective and safe but you don't want to use a lot of benzocaine on a big area. The procaine and lidocaine are safer.

    HD: You could definitely try that, because it does sound like there is some kind of imprinted memory in what happened through that.

    CALLER: Yeah, I tried to look it up and there were several things I found on the internet, but none of them suggest any type of treatment. And I would have an open sore there, until that heals. It would heal rapidly, but at times it would form a false crust or scab, which would come off.

    HD: You could definitely try that anaesthetic cream as the next thing to do. I think we have two more callers so let’s get the next caller on the air. Where are you from?

    CALLER: About the woman who used alcohol and something else up her shin and the eczema disappeared instantly. What was the other thing?

    HD: Was it lidocaine, Dr Peat?

    RP: No, that particular one was just novocaine — procaine. It will dissolve in water, but a little alcohol makes it dissolve faster.

    HD: Very briefly, Dr. Peat, I know that emodin and another laxative from cascara were definitely used to suppress bladder cancer cell growth. I saw an article about that. Do you know much more about emodin?

    RP: About 10 or 15 years ago the FDA was attacking it, the laxatives of that class, such as aloe and cascara, as potential causes of cancer, but as soon as they took it off the market the cancer industry started getting interested in it. And it relieves or cures many kinds of cancer. And it turns out not to have any of the harmful effects that the FDA was claiming. And its mechanism seems to involve not only the usual anti-inflammatory things, but a real basic reprogramming, demethylation and inhibiting the histone deacetylase enzymes.

    HD: Okay, Dr. Peat, thanks so much for joining us.
     
  2. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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