RP Email Advice Comment: Androsterone-Associated Joint Pain

[moriwatzi]

I second the low estrogen hypothesis. Topical non-DMSO Andractim/DHT gave me same joint issues as high dose progest-e, 11-KETO-DHT or androsterone. DHEA, at least for me, reverses the condition, which doesn't make much sense in a low cortisol context.

 

[Regina]

I am not experiencing the joint pain what so ever. I went through the cracking (while on high dose kuinone), but just considered that stuff was moving around.
I really stick to trying to keep estrogen low (with supps) and am doing a ton of aikido (joint locks and throws). Joint pins simply don't hurt anymore and I used to be a real crybaby and require TLC. I don't think my joint mobility was this good even as a child. I'm tied up in knots and need no recovery time.
However, I am getting winded . That sucks. I wish I could figure that out. I can't even explain how awful it is--just feeling like I can't move, almost like panic attack. I constantly have to stop and regain composure. People keep asking me if I needed an inhaler.

 

[Broken man]

I fixed this problem with pregnenolone, niacinamide and kuinone.

 

[Dragon]

@ecstatichamster ....Also quite clearly ray categorically rejects the notion that estrogen can be "too low"..... Though I disagree with @haidut that low estrogen causes problems....

Haidut is not the only one saying low estrogen causes joint pain and problems. Such joint issues are the number-1 report from people using an AI (aromatase inhibitor) to lower estrogen. There are literally tens of thousands of people who have posted such reports of EXACTLY this sort of "all over" joint pain on dozens of forums.

Further, lowering estrogen past a certain point is also well known to destroy male sexuality...no libido...no nocturnal erections...no morning wood. This is the second most commonly reported issue from users of AI's.

Again, these reports number in the >tens of thousands<, on dozens of forums. Many of these people spent serious coin to do repetitive bloodwork during their protocol, from which they were able to determine a specific >range< of E2-in-serum that maintained their sexuality.

Which brings to mind a 2nd point...

Ray is human too. He can be mistaken just like anyone else. :)

My take... Although significantly lowering estrogen has helped me (and many other 50+ men), there is >overwhelming< evidence that estrogen can indeed be made 'too low' for proper bodily function.

 

[Dragon]

wagner, thanx for the quotes/links on the ocular issues. :)

 

[Braveheart]

Dragon: My take... Although significantly lowering estrogen has helped me (and many other 50+ men), there is >overwhelming< evidence that estrogen can indeed be made 'too low' for proper bodily function.

Can you elaborate...I believe we Peatnicks might become too good at lowering estrogen....

 

[Dragon]

Dragon: My take... Although significantly lowering estrogen has helped me (and many other 50+ men), there is >overwhelming< evidence that estrogen can indeed be made 'too low' for proper bodily function.

Can you elaborate...I believe we Peatnicks might become too good at lowering estrogen....

hey bz! :)

We were just in Corozal a few weeks ago. Only there for 1 day and night, or we would've looked you up.

Not much more to elaborate, beyond what I just posted. Lowering E2 is good...to a point. That point being when you stop having morning wood, and/or your joints start to hurt. On several of the TRT and iron-pumping forums, some guys have posted recommended ranges for serum E2. But since nobody wants to do bloodwork every week, it comes down to just experimenting with how much AI you take each week. For me, a half of a 1mg anastrozole each 3-4 days is 'just right'. Everyone seems to be a little different.

 

[tara]

as DMSO also makes cell membranes permeable which I assume can cause

As well as the possibilities associated with reduced cortisol , or the GAGs, I wonder whether something to do with this could be an issue for some people. The DMSO is a solvent - it's very good at assisting in the diffusion of a number of substances through tissues and into cells. Presumably a whole lot of substances we would be better to have some resistance to, as well as the ones we want to hasten.

I don't take that to mean no-one should use DMSO. I do think it makes sense to consider whether we are using any other strong or toxic substances alongside it (eg cosmetics, cleaning products, industrial chemical exposure via work, etc), and that if one feels off in some way after embarking on it, to watch and see if one can eliminate it as the cause.

The skin irritation i had at first with DMSO has gone away but Ray makes a point: if something gives you rashes can it be that good for you long-term?

Don't know that I find this particularly strong evidence - there are lots of substances that are beneficial in an appropriate concentration, and that many of us use and recommend, that are irritating in too high a concentration - eg NaCl, or MgCl, even sucrose can cause trouble to tissues exposed to high concentration over prolonged periods. And that's not considering the smaller micros. DMSO is known to cause skin irritation to many people if it is not diluted sufficiently.

 

[Braveheart]

hey bz! :)

We were just in Corozal a few weeks ago. Only there for 1 day and night, or we would've looked you up.

Not much more to elaborate, beyond what I just posted. Lowering E2 is good...to a point. That point being when you stop having morning wood, and/or your joints start to hurt. On several of the TRT and iron-pumping forums, some guys have posted recommended ranges for serum E2. But since nobody wants to do bloodwork every week, it comes down to just experimenting with how much AI you take each week. For me, a half of a 1mg anastrozole each 3-4 days is 'just right'. Everyone seems to be a little different.

Well I just turned 72 and morning wood has just reappeared after a log abscence...must be doing something right...prolactin at 3.5 so T must be good too...that's all I know.

Hey, now I remember...you guys settle in Columbia or still searching for the perfect spot? Anyway, best to you.

 

[japanesedude]

When I use 3+drops of Androsterone, I get jointpain. stack with Pansterone always help my joints smoothness.
Pansterone + Androsterone kills my libido, orgasm. I even get moisture semen.
Pansterone it self gives me libido, erection quality(easy to keep boner),morning wood, good oragasm. massive lord.

A lot of people on the forum have reported low sex drive from androsterone, and I think this is due to low estrogen.

 

[Broken man]

Hello all, I read Blocking Tissue Destruction today and Is it possible that Androsterone lower cortisol so we are deficient with cortisone? I know that niacinamide helped me and @DaveFoster told that niacinamide breakdown cortisol to cortisone. What do you think? @TubZy @Constatine

 

[Makrosky]

The insufficiency of enough cortisol to soothe joints that are suffering inflammation seems more likely to me.

True but androsterone is also thyromimetic so it should make your metabolism catch up where the stress hormones left. Don't you think?

 

[GAF]

I am not experiencing the joint pain what so ever. I went through the cracking (while on high dose kuinone), but just considered that stuff was moving around.
I really stick to trying to keep estrogen low (with supps) and am doing a ton of aikido (joint locks and throws). Joint pins simply don't hurt anymore and I used to be a real crybaby and require TLC. I don't think my joint mobility was this good even as a child. I'm tied up in knots and need no recovery time.
However, I am getting winded . That sucks. I wish I could figure that out. I can't even explain how awful it is--just feeling like I can't move, almost like panic attack. I constantly have to stop and regain composure. People keep asking me if I needed an inhaler.

Riboflavin 250mg in the morning and Aloha Medicinals Cordyceps 3 to 6 capsules per day spread out and you won't need an inhaler. Try it. You'll like it.

 

[Broken man]

True but androsterone is also thyromimetic so it should make your metabolism catch up where the stress hormones left. Don't you think?

Yes, it is but Haidut wrote that It cant fully replace thyroid. I can find it but It will take time, still I dont understand why I have joint pain even I am not using Andro. All I know is that niacinamide plays big role for me.

 

[Regina]

Riboflavin 250mg in the morning and Aloha Medicinals Cordyceps 3 to 6 capsules per day spread out and you won't need an inhaler. Try it. You'll like it.

Thanks GAF. You know, many moons ago I would take cordyceps (just because I was hippy-ish/counter culture and not because of any insight), and I did believe they gave me energy. Now, in light of Peat, I wonder if mushroom supps are prepared so that the toxins are processed/cooked away.....

 

[japanesedude]

Yes, it is but Haidut wrote that It cant fully replace thyroid. I can find it but It will take time, still I dont understand why I have joint pain even I am not using Andro. All I know is that niacinamide plays big role for me.

500mg Niacinamide caused dry joints for me too.

 

[GAF]

Thanks GAF. You know, many moons ago I would take cordyceps (just because I was hippy-ish/counter culture and not because of any insight), and I did believe they gave me energy. Now, in light of Peat, I wonder if mushroom supps are prepared so that the toxins are processed/cooked away.....

Beats me, but adding B2 to the cordyceps has created a whirlwind.

 

[lollipop]

Now, in light of Peat, I wonder if mushroom supps are prepared so that the toxins are processed/cooked away.....

I wonder about this as well. I was taking raw powder and occasionally tincture of the mushrooms. Good question though. @Daniel11 do you know about this?

 

[Daniel11]

I wonder about this as well. I was taking raw powder and occasionally tincture of the mushrooms. Good question though. @Daniel11 do you know about this?

That is an important question, may vary between companies, i get medicinal mushrooms from this place, i do not remember the details. I have a busy day will try to find out more information and update later.

http://www.fungi.com/host-defense.html

 

[Broken man]

500mg Niacinamide caused dry joints for me too.

So low cholesterol maybe

I supposed it can happen - low cholesterol causing joint pain. The increased steroid synthesis when taking T3 is needed to handle the increased tissue demands. For instance, increased metabolism requires more bile acid synthesis and if there is not enough cholesterol then maybe digestion would not be as good. I am not aware of any actual dangers of taking a metabolic booster when cholesterol is low. It's more like not getting as much benefit as you would if cholesterol was normal.