Retinil - Liquid Vitamin A Dietary Supplement

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, May 8, 2015.

  1. japanesedude

    japanesedude Member

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    How much would be the good dosage for increase Testosterone or lower Estrogen?
     
  2. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I'm not sure if such message resonates with you anymore because you receive them everyday, but I'm very pleased by your supplements. As someone with danwichism myself I know how tiresome it can be to source reliable vendors.

    I mentioned that I was going to leave an opinion after some use, however I'm rarely using it, but this is the product that I would recommend if someone asked me for a vitamin A supplement.

    I can't compare your retinyl palmitate with the acetate, too many variables. I'm only touching on it because some people might still not know that you're offering both for some time already.

    Thanks for everything and keep tarmandering no matter what!
     
  3. skominac

    skominac Member

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    retinyl acetate on scrotum = increased steroidogenesis, I feel.
     
  4. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

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    the other upside to skipping liver is you get to skip the extra dose of iron as well.
     
  5. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    I have now tried both Retinal Palmitate and Retinal Acetate and feel Acetate is superior in results. I have sun issues on my face and apply MelaNon first then Retinal Acetate. This combo is helping to clear up some of those issues. A pleasant side effect is a rush of energy and well being shortly afterward. When there is music playing in the background I will dance around the house! (usually when no one else is home)
     
  6. Scenes

    Scenes Member

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    2 questions:

    1) Does retinil on the face/scalp make me more prone to sun damage?

    2) Is an increase in vit d or other fat sol vitamins required if taking retinil?
     
  7. raypeatclips

    raypeatclips Member

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    What dose do you take?
     
  8. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    I don't know that topical A would be a great idea before going sunbathing...
     
  9. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Retinyl palmitate is milder than acetate and the irritation lessens as chain length increases (while the retinol equivalence decreases, but those are storages forms anyway, to become active they must be transformed): you can test both by putting them on skin and applying pressure, it's expected that acetate irritates faster and even cause a mild burn. But considering that there was no irritation from application (and many aspects have influence, such as the amount, the thickness of the skin, the vehicle, the pressure, etc), I have the impression that they can work as antioxidants until the point where there's a significant damage in them, similar to chemical barrier sunscreens that you have to keep renewing to be effective and safe, and if used only one time being worse than nothing at all. However they are rapidly degraded by sunlight if there's no protection, such as his Retinyl Acetate that is rapidly absorbed and doesn't contain vit E that helps to stabilize it, it's just water and alcohol. This is not a reason to prefer the Palmitate, it's a reason to apply it on unexposed areas, just like Energin.
    With Retinol being the most irritating of all, followed by Retinoic acid (if I remember correctly). This is one of the aspects that make retinoic acid suitable for improving the skin, it's a stress signal that forces the skin to adapt by thickening and becoming more resistant in general, also by increasing cell turn owa. It's also one of the reasons why manufacturers tend to use creamy vehicles as the retinoic acid strength increases (instead of gel). Retinyl acetate is close to proprionate in terms of irritancy.


    Here are some of the links that I sent Zeus some time ago:

    Photocarcinogenesis study of retinoic acid and retinyl palmitate [CAS Nos. 302-79-4 (All-trans-retinoic acid) and 79-81-2 (All-trans-retinyl palmit... - PubMed - NCBI
    "Retinyl palmitate (RP) is the major storage form of vitamin A in the skin and, because RP is also the most stable of available vitamin A esters, it is readily incorporated into the oil phase of cosmetic creams or lotions. Therefore, the topical application of RP is a practical strategy for increasing the levels of vitamin A in the skin."​

    Retinol and retinyl esters: biochemistry and physiology: Thematic Review Series: Fat-Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A (already shared this one on the forum)
    "It has been estimated that for healthy, well-nourished individuals, approximately 70% of the retinoid present in the body will be stored in the liver and approximately 70–90% of this is found in HSCs [hepatic stellate cells] (6, 7, 116, 117, 119). Within HSCs, retinoid is stored as retinyl esters in the large lipid droplets that are characteristic of these cells (see Fig. 4) (6, 7, 117–119). Nearly all of the retinoid present in HSCs is retinyl ester (primarily retinyl palmitate, with smaller amounts of retinyl stearate, retinyl oleate, and retinyl linoleate) (116–119)."​

    Patent US20090124694 - Method of producing retinyl esters
    "Retinyl palmitate is another commonly used retinyl ester, which may typically be produced by trans-esterification of retinyl acetate with methyl palmitate, with the reaction being chemically catalysed. Retinyl esters have traditionally been preferred to retinol in topical products since they are easier to formulate, are more stable, and they are less irritant than the alcohol form, with the ester typically being hydrolysed in use to the alcohol on the skin."

    "The method also provides a route to the manufacture of retinyl esters and ester blends from a relatively cheap starting material, retinyl acetate, which is cheaper to prepare than materials such as retinyl palmitate."​

    https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/chem_background/exsumpdf/retinylpalmitate_508.pdf
    "The chemical stability of all-trans-retinyl palmitate and all-trans-retinol is strongly dependent on environmental factors such as solvent, temperature and availability of oxygen (Ji and Seo, 1999)*. There are multiple pathways for decomposition of all-trans-retinol and all-trans-retinyl palmitate. One significant pathway involves thermal isomerization of the all-trans isomer of retinol or retinyl palmitate to the appropriate 13-cis isomer[.]
    Thermal isomerization is favored in lipophilic solvents and emulsions containing high compositions of oils (Ji and Seo, 1999).
    A second significant pathway for decomposition of retinol is dehydration leading to anhydro-retinol[.]
    Dehydration is favored in solvents and emulsions containing high compositions of water, and is further accelerated by oxygen and surfactants (Ji and Seo, 1999). Anhydro-retinol has also been observed as a decomposition product of retinyl palmitate (McBee et al., 2000). A third general pathway for chemical decomposition of all-trans-retinol and all-trans-retinyl palmitate is oxidative degradation, leading to a complex mixture of degradation products (Samokyszyn and Marnett, 1990). Studies have shown that retinyl palmitate is significantly more chemically stable than retinol (Semenzato et al., 1997; Ihara et al., 1999)."

    "Boehnlein et al., 1994, have shown that about 18% of retinyl palmitate, applied topically in acetone to excised human skin, penetrates in 30 hrs after application. In addition, approximately 44% of the absorbed retinyl palmitate was hydrolyzed to retinol. In a clinical study, Duell et al., 1997 found that topical application of a cream containing 0.6% retinyl palmitate resulted in elevated levels of retinol in skin measured 48 hrs and 72 hrs after application. No increases in levels of retinyl palmitate were noted, indicating efficient hydrolysis of retinyl palmitate to retinol by cutaneous esterases."
    This is one way that the Acetate form might perform better, I suspect that it's absorbed faster. However oily vehicles are more suitable for the Palmitate form.

    "Topical application of retinyl palmitate or retinol results in biochemical changes characteristically produced by retinoic acid. Topical application of retinoic acid induces increases in retinoic acid 4-hydroxylase and cellular retinoic acid binding proteins (Roos et al., 1998). Topically applied retinyl palmitate and retinol have been shown to induce similar effects in human skin."

    "Significant histological changes in skin are induced by topical application of retinyl palmitate or retinol. Studies in animal models indicate that topically applied retinyl palmitate or retinol induces epidermal hyperplasia and thickening (Counts et al., 1988; González et al., 1997). Similarly, topical application of retinyl palmitate or retinol to human skin results in epidermal hyperplasia and thickening (Duell et al., 1997; Kang et al., 1995).

    The effect of topically applied retinyl palmitate and retinol on photocarcinogenesis has not been determined. However, several studies have appeared in which the effect of topically applied retinoic acid on photocarcinogenesis is investigated (Table 2). The similarities between the biochemical and histological effects of topically applied retinyl palmitate and retinoic acid on skin suggests that these studies are relevant for assessing the need for testing the effects of retinyl palmitate on photocarcinogenesis.
    Which is why paying attention to the precautions given by tretinoin products is prudent, even if William Blake thinks that "Prudence is a rich, ugly, old maid courted by incapacity."

    Studies of the effects of topically applied retinoic acid on photocarcinogenesis differ greatly in significant aspects of study design including: vehicle chosen; amount of retinoic acid applied and schedule for application; animal model used; and spectral distribution and dose of incident UV radiation. The potential effect of the chosen vehicle on a study’s outcome has been noted (Kligmann, 1987) [I think that Ray already mentioned this guy in his articles]. This investigator observed that organic solvents, such as methanol, may cause sub-clinical irritation which could alter the effects of retinoids on skin and result in enhancement of photocarcinogenesis. This issue can not be definitively addressed since none of the studies currently available include a UV-irradiated control group receiving no topical treatment. However, irritation induced by topical treatment with organic solvents may not alone explain the differences observed, since studies in which methanol is used as a vehicle (e.g., Davies and Forbes, 1988) and a study in which a lotion serves as a vehicle (Hartmann and Teelman, 1981) demonstrate enhancement of photocarcinogenesis by topically applied retinoic acid. In addition, it has been observed that vehicles formulated without antioxidants differ substantially from marketed products and allow decomposition of retinoids (Kligmann, 1987). However, the studies outlined in Table 2 suggest no clear association between inclusion of antioxidants in topical formulations and a study’s outcome."​

    ISBN 9780849313936
    "One of the main problems with vitamin A is its chemical stability. It is sensitive to humidity, oxygen, heat, light, and heavy metals. This is why all formulations and some of the commercial types of vitamin A contain an antioxidant. However, if a dry inert gas is used to prevent all contact with oxygen and moisture, the stability of pure retinyl palmitate is found to be the same whether an antioxidant is present or not. Only thermal decomposition is then responsible for the measured losses, as shown by the figure on the next page [173]."
    Like I mentioned before, switching to glass bottles with detachable dropper results in constant renewal of the air inside, it can't be good in terms of stability unless you do what Thorne is now doing: you can't remove the dropper. The customers were annoyed, but it's an economical and safe solution.

    "The pH of aqueous solubilizates of vitamin A should not be lower than 6.0, otherwise isomerization occurs until an equilibrium has been reached between two-thirds all-trans-retinyl palmitate and one-third cis isomers. The main isomer is the 13-cis form, which has only 75% of the vitamin A activity of the all-trans form. Other cis isomers which are formed (e.g. 9-cis and 9,13-dicis) have even lower vitamin A activity (15 o 24%). This is a particular problem in multivitamin solutions, where the pH must always be between 4 and 5."
    I believe that Zeus made sure that both of his products are within the optimal range for their vehicle.

    "Losses of vitamin A in a syrup on storage at room temperature for 180 days were reduced from 20% to 6% by addition of 16.8% tocopherol, 1% butylated hydroxytoluene [BHT is commonly used as a stabilizer in many cosmetic products] and 1% propyl gallate (all percentages based on retinyl palmitate) [168]. The purity of the auxiliaries (e.g. sucrose) may also affect the stability of vitamin A. Purification of a sucrose syrup with an ion exchanger distinctly improved the stability of vitamin A [174]. In addition, aqueous vitamin A solubilizates should be (produced and) packaged under an inert gas."

    "The stability of vitamin A in ethanol/water solubilizates increases with decreasing water content [182]."

    [173] V. Bühler in "Stabilisierungstechnologie" (D.
    Essig, J. Hofer, P. C. Schmidt, H. Stumpf),
    79±91, Wissenschaftliche Verlagsgesellschaft,
    Stuttgart (1986)

    [168] G. Fabrizi, M. Galloni, B. Lotti, O. Vezzosi,
    Boll. Chim. Farm. 110, 726±732 (1971)

    [174] M. G. Marmori, Il Farmaco (Ed. Prat.) 16,
    270±283 (1961)

    [182] T. Anmo, M. Washitake, Y. Takashima, M.
    Isohata, M. Furuya, K. Koike, Vitamins (Japan)
    46, 193 (1972)​

    ISBN: 978-1-4899-1791-1
    "The mechanisms underlying the synergism between vitamin A and vitamin E are not entirely clear. The kinetics of consumption of a-tocopherol and all-trans retinol in the course of lipid peroxidation did not show regeneration mechanisms for any of the antioxidants (Fig. 4). On the other hand, when a-tocopherol and all-trans retinol were combined, the consumption of both antioxidants was significantly delayed with respect to assays where they acted separately, indicating a reciprocal protection. Vitamin E may prevent vitamin A oxidation (Mejia, 1986; Robison et al., 1980, 1979). So, keeping in mind the antioxidant mechanism of retinoids, a possible explanation is that, by limiting the autocatalytic oxidation of all-trans retinol, Waynish-tocopherol strongly promotes its antioxidant effectiveness. The concerted radical scavenging action in turn results in a synergistic protection of the lipid system and ultimately slows down a-tocopherol consumption. In accordance with this explanation, combination of all-trans retinol with butylated hydroxy toluene, a synthetic antioxidant known to prevent vitamin A autoxidation (Budowski and Bondi, 1960), reduced all-trans retinol consumption and produced synergistic effects in a similar liposomal system (Tesoriere et al., 1996)."

    "The interactions between all-trans retinol and a-tocopherol observed in retina (Tesoriere et al., 1995) may be of importance for the visual function. Early in vivo studies had showed that interrelationships between vitamins E and A were essential in preventing oxidative destruction of rod outer segments (Robison et al., 1979). The amount of all-trans retinol measured in native retinal membranes (0.1 nmolmgproCI ) is in a 1:7 ratio with the endogenous a-tocopherol (Tesoriere et al., 1995), i.e., a ratio useful for the synergistic effects to occur (Tesoriere et al., 1996). Moreover, according to the visual cycle, larger amounts of all-trans retinol can be released in the retina (Bongiorno et al., 1991; Zimmerman, 1974), providing an effective antioxidant defense when free radical reactions consequential to light absorption may easily occur (Handelman and Dratz, 1986).
    Vitamin E is not uniformly distributed in membranes, but forms clusters in the lipid bilayer (Kagan et al., 1990). Lipid domains in the membrane where retinol and tocopherol can be concentrated may create conditions for a much more effective antioxidant action. Moreover, in vivo, complementary antioxidant systems in the aqueous compartment (Packer, 1992), by maintaining a-tocopherol status, may concur to improve their synergistic effect."

    "Data indicate that, by scavenging lipoperoxyl radicals, the main chain-carrying species during the peroxidation of unsaturated lipids, vitamin A and its congeners may act as chain-breaking antioxidants in biological membranes and other lipid-rich environments. This activity is unusual for several reasons. Retinoids do not donate hydrogen atoms, but rather act as a trap for lipoperoxyl radicals. A delicate balance between antioxidant and non antioxidant, or even prooxidant, pathways establishes the effectiveness of retinol. The latter appears to depend critically on the oxygen partial pressure, extent of radical fluxes, and retinol concentration (Tesoriere et al., 1997). Low oxygen tension and retinol concentrations favor the antioxidant activity in membranes in vivo. Increase of radical fluxes may enhance the antioxidant effectiveness [#Ray]. In addition, interactions with other agents seem to be critical in determining an effective antioxidant behavior of vitamin A.
    In view of the growing number of associations between various pathological conditions and changes in oxidative balance, redox status, and oxidative injury, one of the goals of current research concerns whether antioxidant nutrients may be pharmacologically exploited. The importance of vitamin A in reducing the risk of certain types of cancer (Hong and Itri, 1994) and of cardiovascular diseases (Gey et al., 1994; Gey and Puska, 1989), as well as the therapeutic value in skin diseases (Vahlquist, 1994; Orfanos et al., 1987), raise the question of whether its beneficial role is associated with its antioxidant properties. Since carcinogenesis has been implicated with reactive oxygen species (Guyton and Kensler, 1993; Cerutti, 1985), it was suggested that the antioxidant properties of retinoids may be the basis of their anticancer action (Gey et al., 1994; Gey, 1993; Gundimeda et al., 1993). This concept also seems to be supported by the evidence that vitamin A may inhibit several aspects of the carcinogenesis process (Moon et al., 1994). On the other hand, the uncertainties about the role of lipid peroxidation products on stimulation of tumor growth, or conversely inhibition of cell proliferation (Welsch, 1995; Burdon, 1995), make the effect of lipid antioxidants on tumorigenesis difficult to assess at the moment. Prevention of photoaging of the skin by retinoic acid (Kligman et al., 1984) may be an expression of antioxidant activity, as emerging evidence suggests that free radicals are responsible for at least part of the degenerative changes leading to cutaneous aging (Black, 1987). In any event one may ask what are the safety limits wherein production of toxic radicals can be counterbalanced by vitamin A without being open to prooxidant activity. The redox character of retinoids must be considered in terms of the extracellular and intracellular oxygen microenvironments and of the actual oxidative insult."​

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...etween-vitamin-a-and-vitamin-e-in-the-rat.pdf
    "There is now much evidence that the concept that vitamin E deficiency diseases are caused by the 'proliferation' of lipid peroxidation in vivo is untenable (Green, Diplock, Bunyan, McHale & Muthy, 1967; Bunyan, Murrell, Green & Diplock, 1967) and any role for vitamin E as a physiological antioxidant would now seem difficult to support. If, therefore, a true 'sparing' effect of vitamin E on vitamin A exists in vivo, the cause must lie elsewhere than in a simple ‘pro-oxidant-antioxidant’ relationship."
    Vitamin E: Estrogen antagonist, energy promoter, and anti-inflammatory

    https://emaniocreativecom.ipage.com...tamin-A/DesStatementaboutRetinylPalmitate.pdf

    It's not mentioned here but Zeus uses MCT oil derived from organic coconuts. I doubt that it would make a difference but it's supporting good practices anyway.
    I suspect that Retinyl Acetate has a cleaner and faster delivery, which might have some pros and cons. He often mentions the Russian researchers that tend to use this form for cancer research, it might be related to its nature.

    --
     
  10. tomisonbottom

    tomisonbottom Member

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    How much do you use and how long till you saw improvement?
     
  11. EIRE24

    EIRE24 Member

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    If you dont mind me asking what skin issues in particular do you suffer from?
     
  12. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    Basil cells mostly
     
  13. Mossy

    Mossy Member

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  14. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    I apply 6 drops of each and spread around the sun damaged areas at night. I changed my routine recently now I just do the MelaNon on the problem areas of my face morning and night. I apply the Retinal Acetate on my shoulders 6 drops twice a day. I have been doing Progestene along with Tocovit on my gums (2 drops each) several times a day and noticed clearer skin on my face.
     
  15. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    Does anybody use this on their penis or testicles
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think @skominac may be able to help with that question. Possibly 1-2 drops would be enough.
     
  17. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I do appreciate your feedback of course! And thanks for convincing me to release the palmitate version as well. Some people buy from me just because I offer it.
     
  18. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Wow, thanks for the great reviews and dosage information!
    Have the basal cell moles decreased or disappeared?
     
  19. skominac

    skominac Member

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    Sure :): I use 5 drops daily on average, sublingually or on the skin, like stomach or arms. I don't put anything on testes anymore, as Ray suggested doing so can disrupt the intricate balance of fats there, which I believe is a good point. BUT, when I take A, I also take Vitamin E as E prevents any toxicity from A. And that's not all. if I take A and E, then I also take K2. Furthermore, K2 and E can compete, so I take A and K2 in the mornings and E before bed. But, most importantly, on many days I take nothing, and take a break. Fat solubles can accumulate so no need to take all the time. You can load up and take a break. Hope this helps.

    And yes, if you don't counteract with E, then maybe 1-2 drops is better.
     
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