Peatist Losers [Weight Loss]

[DaveFoster]

I'd say it's better to overeat calories in the form of dairy fat than to undereat on a low-fat diet. Undereating is absolutely destructive.

 

[whodathunkit]

No point. What's the alternative??

Yep.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I'd say it's better to overeat calories in the form of dairy fat than to undereat on a low-fat diet. Undereating is absolutely destructive.

Obviously you aren't a fat middle-aged "diabetic" woman. Peat says to keep fat to a minimum if a person is overweight and that it's actually better to get calories from carbs in this situation.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

“My basic approach is to lower estrogen and the stress hormones by diet including a daily carrot salad, supported by thyroid supplements as needed.”

“It takes a few days for the intestine to adjust to raw carrot, but the indigestible fiber is very protective for the intestine. Boiled bamboo shoots, which are also mostly indigestible, have a similar effect. These fibers prevent the reabsorption of estrogen in the intestine, and can shift the balance away from cortisol and estrogen, toward progesterone and thyroid, in just a few days of regular use. Oatmeal and potatoes do provide fiber, but they are good food for bacteria, and bacterial endotoxin is usually the basic problem causing hormone imbalance, by being a chronic burden for the liver, keeping it from storing enough sugar to process thyroid and the other hormones effectively.”---RP

Eating raw carrots can prevent the absorption of estrogen from the intestine, allowing the liver to more effectively regulate metabolism.”

“Things that protect the bowel, such as raw carrots, have far-reaching effects on hormones and immunity.”

HE SAID IT (a million times)....keep yer guts clean ladies.

 

[whodathunkit]

HE SAID IT (a million times)....keep yer guts clean ladies.

Ray Peat said that? In those words? Do you have a reference for that, please? :p

Eating raw carrots can prevent the absorption of estrogen from the intestine, allowing the liver to more effectively regulate metabolism.”

“Things that protect the bowel, such as raw carrots, have far-reaching effects on hormones and immunity.”

Thanks for this timely reminder, Peatowski. I've been slacking on the carrot salad due to other things but will recommence with it tomorrow.

Does anyone know how adding raw grated beet to the carrots might affect their cleansing action? I was doing this for a little while and it was quite tasty. Beets are so sugary and carby and fairly similar to carrots. But I won't do it any more if it has a deleterious effect on the mechanism of the salad. Anyone care to say for sure or hazard a guess?

You could try boatloads of progesterone, honey, salt, OJ, B vitamins, magnesium and lots of milk PRONTO!!!

@KellyP, I totally agree with this. However, I hafta ask...are you coming off a lot of processed food and PUFA? If so, just beware you might get some extra sides with progesterone. I couldn't tolerate it until recently, now that my liver is apparently in pretty good shape due to PUFA depletion and VLF. Of course, people like Peatowski and @PakPik got good results from it even when they were still fairly "toxic"...I'm just chiming in with this as a FYI and something to maybe look out for, NOT to scare you off progesterone. We're all different, and it could be that I'm just a pansy and can't tolerate the same level of discomfort as those other ladies. But now that I can finally use progesterone, it's my new best friend. It's reduced bloating, irritability, and I've actually gotten high/euphoric from it a few times. Come to find out it has some of the same actions in the bod as benzos. Doesn't last long, but it gives me the same half-witted smile on my face that abusing my valium prescription used to give me, back in the day. And it's good for me!

 

[thebigpeatowski]

people like Peatowski and @PakPik got good results from it even when they were still fairly "toxic"...I

Um, NO things got worse before they got better. I didn't have internet service until March of 2014 because I had recently moved (it was all part of my Escape-The-City-And-Heal-Myself-Gig). At any rate, because it took me so long to get service I wasn't able get on the forum to whine and complain nearly as often as I would have liked...that's probably a good thing. I'd been "Peating" since December and my very first post in March was post was less than diplomatic.....ha ha, the Good Old Days.

Speaking of Valium, I had a friend when I was growing up whose dad was a pharmacist...their house was like a Candy Store. Valium and quaaludes were my personal faves.

We're prolly scaring KellyP away.

EDITING TO ADD: Some stuff got better right away with progesterone, my beard stopped growing...so that was a Bonus.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

MORE QUOTES from RP for @KellyP...just to drive the point home:

“When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.”

“Yes, I know people who have lost weight just by eating a raw carrot every day, reducing endotoxin stress.”

“Yes, that’s why a resistant (antiseptic) fiber such as bamboo shoots or raw carrot helps with weight loss, it reduces endotoxin and the stress hormones, and lets the liver metabolize more effectively.”

 

[KellyP]

@thebigpeatowski @whodathunkit I'm going to pop in and say I'm still here! I'm reading. I'm overwhelmed. We had family stuff today. I drank fat-free milk, OJ, 1 boiled egg, some cottage cheese, a few desperate bites of chips and guac, then more milk and 2 cheese sticks. Not enough calories, but I took my BS tonight and for the first time in over a month it's down to 138. I'm going to check in the morning, which is what I've tracked most consistently.

All of your info is so good, and I have to work through your answers and thoughts, but one big question:
So do you think you fixed your diabetes/hyperglycemia before attempting to lose weight? If so, do you think that was important to do separately? I think I am where you were at when you started in December 2013. How were you feeling/what were your stats when you started the LF protocol?

 

[thebigpeatowski]

How were you feeling/what were your stats when you started the LF protocol?

I was feeling like sh*t when I started the LF protocol, that's precisely WHY I did it. I was ******* miserable with wicked estrogen symptoms, gut issues, blood sugar issues and high blood pressure too. I only used "Peat" foods and I kept fat very very low, this was key for blood sugar and adding LOTS of fructose. When things got stressful I ate more food, went for a walk, drank progesterone....this is what I mean by mitigating things as you go, it's moment by moment.

If you haven't been calorie restricting then perhaps you are ready, but you absolutely cannot eat chips and guac. I'm thinking that combo would be the worst thing for your liver and pancreas.

Maybe just try the diet in a NON-CALORIE restricted format for now....just work on PUFA and starch removal, keep your calories up so you aren't tempted to binge on bad food.

EDITING TO ADD: You can make home made tzatziki sauce made with 100% fat free yogurt and eat cucumber chips...it's like Chips and Dip....recipe to follow.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

So when you're dieting and you got the munchies this is your stand-in for chips-n-dip, IT TAKES A BIT OF TIME FOR THE WATER TO DRAIN AND FLAVORS TO MELD, SO MAKE AHEAD IF YOU CAN!!!

Need something crunchy AND creamy??? Tzatziki Sauce to the rescue! OMG, I LOVE Tzatziki sauce and it goes great on EVERYTHING! Lamb, fish, chicken...slather this NO FAT sauce on EVERYTHING.

I like it on sliced radishes and carrots, pretend you're eating chips and dip, LOL. Simply DELISH on baked/poached white fish!!!

2 cups 0% Fage
1 large Hothouse or English Cucumber (or 2 medium cukes), peeled and seeded
1 TBS. (and an extra 1/2 tsp. if needed) Salt
1/4 tsp. Fresh Ground Black Pepper
Juice from one Freshly Squeezed Lemon
2 Garlic Cloves, Finely Minced or put through garlic press
2 tsp. Minced Fresh Dill Weed (no stalks)


*TIPS* It's best to peel and cut cukes lengthwise then scrape out seeds(not necessary with English cukes). If you have a food processor then grate the cukes, otherwise manually grate or dice. Place grated cukes in a sieve, TOSS with the 1 TBS. salt and place over a bowl in the fridge. Cucumbers have a lot of the water, salting and resting over a bowl in the fridge for at least one to two hours removes the extra water to avoid the sauce becoming too runny and thin.

After an hour or two, pour out cucumber liquid and wipe bowl dry with a paper towel. Put yogurt in bowl. Squeeze as much liquid from the cukes as you can; pat dry lightly in a couple of pieces of paper towel to remove more liquid; add to bowl and whisk in lemon juice, minced garlic, dill, 1/2 tsp. salt, and pepper. Mix together well. This can be served immediately; however, it is BEST served after having chilled well and allowing a few hours for the flavors to blend.

 

[EIRE24]

This. See, my guts love starch now where they didn't used to, but my brain maybe does not share the same affection....at least that's one of Dumbelina's Many Theories.

What do you think helped change your gut to start tolerating starch?

 

[whodathunkit]

I tend to think that getting rid of all your fat while also avoiding a stress response was how you healed your metabolism. Is that what you think?

Not necessarily in my case. I didn't lose my weight by "Peating" like @thebigpeatowski did. How I got started losing and how I realized I actually didn't have to be fat any more and could finally do something about it was more serendipity in in the beginning than an actual plan. I developed a plan pretty quickly when I realized how my metabolsim had "shifted" thanks to the non-weightloss supplement strategy I was applying, but I didn't start out by saying "I'm going to lose weight." I had almost given up that idea.

When tackling my metabolism I definitely experienced stress at different times, and the supplement regimen I did for a year before starting to lose produced what I realize now was probably stress reactions in my body. I also stressed my body out at different times by undereating, and maybe over-exercising. But it wasn't a constant thing...when I realized I was getting stressed I would slow down, refeed for a while, drop some activity, recoup, and then go into calorie deficit again after I felt stable for a while. This back-and-forth is not necessarily recommended, although IMO it doesn't have to be the end of the world. I think it worked for me because even though I wasn't Peating I dropped PUFA completely and was overall in calorie deficit when considering the overall balance of undereating/refeed. Plus, my body was finally getting all the nutrients it needed after decades of malnutrition. It was okay for it to let go of the fat.

It's worth emphasizing that proper nutrition, aside from just overall carb/sugar intake to avoid a stress response, is essential to getting the most out of any weight loss regimen. Proper nutrition in the absence of PUFA is utterly essential to beat food cravings. I built up my nutritional foundation for a year with supplements before the weight started coming off and I changed my diet completely, for good. I strongly suspect that extreme stress due to calorie deficit in the presence of acute existing nutritional deficiencies and also in the presence of ongoing poor diet full of processed foods and PUFA is what is behind the backsliding of contestants on Biggest Loser and 600lb Life and shows like that. A very low fat Peat eating style should supply all the nutrition you need, so you can actually start losing while you're also improving your nutritional status.

Also worth noting is that EATING PUFA WILL CAUSE CRAVINGS. There is no getting around that. I proved this to myself not long ago when I was doing the VLF with starch, and I decided it was okay to have a bowl of oatmeal every day (I loves me my porridge ). We all know what oats are, but they have quite a bit of PUFA in them, in case you don't know. I wasn't eating the oatmeal with fat or granulated sugar or anything except raisins, but I soon noticed I just wanted to keep piling more and more raisins into it. I also loves me my raisins. But OD-ing on raisins will kill a controlled calorie experiment in short order.

Then I started getting the uncontrollable urge to eat the raisins straight out of the box *after* I got done with the porridge + raisins. I was cramming them in by the handsful. I gained a couple pounds after a week of binging on raisins. I started wanting them all day. I also started thinking about other foods that hadn't bothered me in a while. It was disheartening and bewildering until I sat down and realized it was all connected to the daily PUFA intake. So I stopped eating the porridge and *poof*. Raisin cravings vanished. Now I can eat raisins like a sane person again instead of behaving like a starving hyena with a fresh carcass.

My take on all this is that PUFA + sugar/high carb is not only deadly to any weight loss strategy because it's metabolically unhealthy, it is a very real and acute driver of food cravings and the urge to overeat. All those processed foods we've been raised on really, truly are addictive. Intellectually I was convinced of this for a long time, but until you really prove it to yourself at the visceral level like I did, you may not get it.

So, the two keys to relatively pleasant and craving free weight loss: NO PUFA (no more desperate handsfuls of chips and guac) and get your nutritional status in order. And keep your stress levels as low as possible by all available means.

Also worth mentioning is that now I can slip off the PUFA-free wagon once in a while and I'm fine with it. I get right back on the high horse without looking back. We have to be able to enjoy life with the non-Peatists in our lives, right? But if I do it too often I develop cravings again very quickly. So I'm always very careful with PUFA intake even if I do indulge once in a while. In the beginning it's probably better to avoid PUFA altogether until you've made some progress. But know that your lips can taste guacamole again one day, if you're very, very good. :p However, when that day comes, you may not even want it anymore. Often I just say no to a lot of stuff cuz it doesn't really appeal to me any more. I like what I eat now and how it makes me feel more than I like or want PUFA-laden crap.

 

[whodathunkit]

Stats for today:

Waking temp: 98.3
FBG: 96
Weight: 165.6 lbs

So, my FBG is normalizing again on high-carb/VLF. Happens Every. Single. Time. And it only takes days with VLF. Not months.

I didn't control calories yesterday, either. I didn't particularly overindulge, but I definitely ate more and drank a lot more juice than I did the day before.

Honestly, I was a little nervous about going VLF Peat because I wasn't entirely convinced that so much fructose wouldn't have a different effect on blood sugar than calorie-controlled starch. But I was WRONG. Chalk it up to a small amount of residual mainstream nutritional indoctrination that still lingers in the recesses of my psyche (which is fast being cleared). If any readers of this post are feeling cranky and ungenerous, chalk it up to myopic schtoopidity.

Downside of VLF Peat is that with strict calorie control, I probably would have lost another pound or at least a half-pound. That's the kind of daily scale results I've seen from strict calorie control. Some of which would have been water, and some catabolized from more important tissues than adipose. But some of it would have been fat.

Please note I'm NOT necessarily advocating strict calorie control (SCC). SCC can make the whole process a lot more difficult psychologically, and of course there is the metabolic downside. If used, SCC is only an intervention, not a lifestyle. I'm just sayin' about the weight loss and all cuz it's the truth. SCC with VLF can result in big weight loss very quickly. And I know from experience that not all of it gets gained back when you resume regular eating. Some will, but as long as you keep on healthy and don't binge, espeically on PUFA, most of it will stay off.

 

[whodathunkit]

@thebigpeatowski : how much progesterone are you taking per day now?

 

[KellyP]

Congrats on the temp and BG @whodathunkit ! Dream stats for me.

 

[DaveFoster]

Obviously you aren't a fat middle-aged "diabetic" woman. Peat says to keep fat to a minimum if a person is overweight and that it's actually better to get calories from carbs in this situation.

No, I mean it's never better to undereat unless you can't due to stress-induced appetite suppression. There may be a few situations I can't think of, such as illness.

High calorie high carb > high calorie high fat > Low calorie high carb > low calorie high fat

 

[KellyP]

So when you're dieting and you got the munchies this is your stand-in for chips-n-dip, IT TAKES A BIT OF TIME FOR THE WATER TO DRAIN AND FLAVORS TO MELD, SO MAKE AHEAD IF YOU CAN!!!

Need something crunchy AND creamy??? Tzatziki Sauce to the rescue! OMG, I LOVE Tzatziki sauce and it goes great on EVERYTHING! Lamb, fish, chicken...slather this NO FAT sauce on EVERYTHING.

I like it on sliced radishes and carrots, pretend you're eating chips and dip, LOL. Simply DELISH on baked/poached white fish!!!

2 cups 0% Fage
1 large Hothouse or English Cucumber (or 2 medium cukes), peeled and seeded
1 TBS. (and an extra 1/2 tsp. if needed) Salt
1/4 tsp. Fresh Ground Black Pepper
Juice from one Freshly Squeezed Lemon
2 Garlic Cloves, Finely Minced or put through garlic press
2 tsp. Minced Fresh Dill Weed (no stalks)


*TIPS* It's best to peel and cut cukes lengthwise then scrape out seeds(not necessary with English cukes). If you have a food processor then grate the cukes, otherwise manually grate or dice. Place grated cukes in a sieve, TOSS with the 1 TBS. salt and place over a bowl in the fridge. Cucumbers have a lot of the water, salting and resting over a bowl in the fridge for at least one to two hours removes the extra water to avoid the sauce becoming too runny and thin.

After an hour or two, pour out cucumber liquid and wipe bowl dry with a paper towel. Put yogurt in bowl. Squeeze as much liquid from the cukes as you can; pat dry lightly in a couple of pieces of paper towel to remove more liquid; add to bowl and whisk in lemon juice, minced garlic, dill, 1/2 tsp. salt, and pepper. Mix together well. This can be served immediately; however, it is BEST served after having chilled well and allowing a few hours for the flavors to blend.

OH YUM. I didn't realize that you ate other food besides your milk, OJ, coffee and dairy products. Veggies! At least it's something to chew.

 

[KellyP]

I was feeling like sh*t when I started the LF protocol, that's precisely WHY I did it. I was ******* miserable with wicked estrogen symptoms, gut issues, blood sugar issues and high blood pressure too. I only used "Peat" foods and I kept fat very very low, this was key for blood sugar and adding LOTS of fructose. When things got stressful I ate more food, went for a walk, drank progesterone....this is what I mean by mitigating things as you go, it's moment by moment.

If you haven't been calorie restricting then perhaps you are ready, but you absolutely cannot eat chips and guac. I'm thinking that combo would be the worst thing for your liver and pancreas.

Maybe just try the diet in a NON-CALORIE restricted format for now....just work on PUFA and starch removal, keep your calories up so you aren't tempted to binge on bad food.

EDITING TO ADD: You can make home made tzatziki sauce made with 100% fat free yogurt and eat cucumber chips...it's like Chips and Dip....recipe to follow.

Okay. First, thanks so much. When you said "Help is on the way", my first thought was to cry with relief. NO ONE KNOWS what they're talking about. NO ONE has healed themselves of diabetes (that I've found). Then my second thought was this. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DvnkTBEx1...ASsE/V0DwWy2UlA8/s1600/help-is-on-the-way.gif

So, backstory:
I'm a female, 33
3 children, 9,8,5

I had a fairly stressful childhood (mild to moderate abuse, divorced parents, violent father, lots of moving) but was a normal weight until age 8 when I started visiting my dad again. I think they're related. A little chubby to overweight off and on childhood and adolescence. Had a trauma at 16 (shooting).

Discovered Weston A Price at 20 and hit it hard: kombucha, yogurt, FAT YUM!, soaked grains, etc. Lost weight doing heavy exercise and diet while living in Peru for 3 months. Married at 22 weighing 135. First child at 23 and gained 25 pounds I couldn't shake after birth but still felt okay.

Second pregnancy was very stressful (only 6 mos after birth of first child, and also taking care of my niece due to mother having drug issues. It was a dramatic year). Also went low carb during the pregnancy. Very few carbs and no sugar (a bit of fruit and one treat a month). Btw, I didn't KNOW at the time it was a stressful pregnancy. I felt AMAZING! I walked for 1/2 hour to an hour every morning. I was organized, happy, on top of it. SUPER WOMAN. I went into the pregnancy weighting 160 and after birth weighed 150! The only symptoms I had were what I now know is anxiety: tightened throat, faster pulse, a little warm rush.

My major problems started immediately after a stressful birth: induced by food poison, followed by Epic Ice Storm and no power for days, then mastitis, colicky baby, etc. I remember my midwives saying I'd done such a great job on my diet that I should get a bit of ice cream. And after that I couldn't stop.

I had rage, panic attacks, depression, overwhelming cravings and hunger, confusion, listless, disoriented. I was previously purposeful and organized, but this was the beginning of feeling utterly lost all the time and that hasn't stopped (8 years and going). Gained 10 pounds pretty quickly.

Did different hormone tests with all sorts of practitioners but nothing made sense. Not sure why I didn't try their protocols but I didn't. Standard Process supplements helped me a lot, and in 2009 (at 18 mos old) I weaned my second so that helped as well. BLESSED SLEEP! Toward the end 2009, my previously stable weight of around 160 (which had NOT budged despite intense efforts), suddenly jumped to 185 in two months.

2010 pregnant again and discovered Matt Stone. Helped some but crashed in 2011 after birth of 3rd. Matt Stone directed me to RBTI and it helped so much!!!! The only time I truly felt WELL. Lost a bit of weight. But it's hard-to-impossible to maintain as a lifestyle (vs. a healing protocol), and I stopped after 6 mos, then slowly felt bad again.

Fast forward 4 years of basically eating whatever (lots of eating out, lots of fried foods, lots of homecooked food as well. TONS OF PUFA). The last year I've been very low energy with lots of crashes in the afternoons and evening, getting worse at a faster and faster rate.

One month ago I did a couple hours of yard work (more exertion than I had done in a long time) and I CRASHED. I think it might be what @whodathunkit upthread called Post Exertional Malaise. I felt sick. For 3 weeks! I could barely get out of the house. I still feel hot in the face all the time, and like my limbs are so heavy I can't pick them up. But it's slowly started letting up.

The last month I've been researching diabetes/insulin resistance/hypothyroid/adrenal fatigue/HPA axis dysregulation etc. Feeling panicky because I already know that Low Carb/Low Sugar played a role in messing me up, so I didn't want to turn to that as a short-term solution (if it worked at all this time). I knew of Ray Peat through Matt Stone and have read some articles over the years. I feel like Chicken Little, saying that my high blood sugar isn't caused by sugar or carbs. It's also scary, because I feel on my own, and the risk is my HEALTH, which I have very little left to gamble with.

My stats yesterday:
Weight: 188.6
FBG: 166
BBT: 97.9
Pulse: 86

This morning
Weight: 187.2
FBG: 149
BBT: 97.8
Pulse: forgot :/

1 hour post-breakfast
BG: 201 (!)
Temp: 97.7
Pulse: 96

3 hours post-breakfast
BG: 162
Temp: 97.2
Pulse: 86

I'm going to focus right now on gathering any necessary supplements so that I don't crash my metabolism. I ate LFHC dairy and fruit only yesterday, and I was so happy to wake up and see my FBG lower at 149 (normal is 160-190 the last 2 weeks, since I started tracking it) but my temp also went down, so I think I'm very sensitive to crashing.

Can you tell based on my waking and post breakfast stats if I need thyroid supplements?
How do you supplement with progesterone? I bought a cream that I was going to take days 12-34 of my cycle (normally 37-38 days), but that might not be Peat-ish.

 

[whodathunkit]

@KellyP, just wanted to mention that how you take your temp matters very much.

No matter what method you use to take it, wherever you choose to put it :p , let the thermometer warm up before you try to get a reading. That's the primary thing to remember.

Seriously, the two methods typically used are axillary (armpit) and oral. Some people argue that anal is the most absolutely accurate but for obvious reasons almost nobody uses that.

I was on the fence about which method to use (oral or axillary, not the other one) for a long time, but decided I prefer axillary because the body's ability to keep the extremities warm is an important marker of a metabolic function, and the armpit is more like an extremity than under the tongue. Putting the thermometer in your mouth is more like putting it inside the bod near internal organs (and keeping those warm is the primary focus of the body in cases of low energy production).

You can do research and decide for yourself, o' course...that's just my $0.02. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Anyway, regardless of method, you must let the thermometer warm up for some minutes before taking a reading. This is true whether you have a manual thermometer or a digital and whether you use axillary or oral. Letting it warm up properly can mean the difference in reading of as much as 1.5 or 2 degrees!

So if you have a 9 second digital thermometer and have been getting temp readings from anywhere after leaving it in for 20 seconds or so, your temp readings are likely skewing low. If you haven't been letting your thermometer warm up your temps probably aren't as bad as you think.

What I do is leave my thermometer on my bedside table. When I first wake up, before I get out of bed, I grab it and stick it in one of my pits. Then I leave it there for a bout 10 minutes. I spend the 10 minutes quietly canoodling my cat and reading. Lately I've been reading Ray Peat articles during this time. After about 10 minutes I hit the button on the thermometer without taking it out of my armpit. That's all there is to it. Actually can be a much more pleasant way to start the day than jumping right out of bed and hassling around. If you can swing it, that is. With three kids it might not be doable, but putting it out there just in case.

If you choose axillary method, make sure you get the tip of the thermometer really up in there where no room temp air can get to it. Also keep your arm tightly glued to your side while you're waiting. It's not as much of a PITA as it sounds. :)

 

[KellyP]

@KellyP, just wanted to mention that how you take your temp matters very much.

No matter what method you use to take it, wherever you choose to put it :p , let the thermometer warm up before you try to get a reading. That's the primary thing to remember.

Seriously, the two methods typically used are axillary (armpit) and oral. Some people argue that anal is the most absolutely accurate but for obvious reasons almost nobody uses that.

I was on the fence about which method to use (oral or axillary, not the other one) for a long time, but decided I prefer axillary because the body's ability to keep the extremities warm is an important marker of a metabolic function, and the armpit is more like an extremity than under the tongue. Putting the thermometer in your mouth is more like putting it inside the bod near internal organs (and keeping those warm is the primary focus of the body in cases of low energy production).

You can do research and decide for yourself, o' course...that's just my $0.02. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Anyway, regardless of method, you must let the thermometer warm up for some minutes before taking a reading. This is true whether you have a manual thermometer or a digital and whether you use axillary or oral. Letting it warm up properly can mean the difference in reading of as much as 1.5 or 2 degrees!

So if you have a 9 second digital thermometer and have been getting temp readings from anywhere after leaving it in for 20 seconds or so, your temp readings are likely skewing low. If you haven't been letting your thermometer warm up your temps probably aren't as bad as you think.

What I do is leave my thermometer on my bedside table. When I first wake up, before I get out of bed, I grab it and stick it in one of my pits. Then I leave it there for a bout 10 minutes. I spend the 10 minutes quietly canoodling my cat and reading. Lately I've been reading Ray Peat articles during this time. After about 10 minutes I hit the button on the thermometer without taking it out of my armpit. That's all there is to it. Actually can be a much more pleasant way to start the day than jumping right out of bed and hassling around. If you can swing it, that is. With three kids it might not be doable, but putting it out there just in case.

If you choose axillary method, make sure you get the tip of the thermometer really up in there where no room temp air can get to it. Also keep your arm tightly glued to your side while you're waiting. It's not as much of a PITA as it sounds. :)

Thanks @whodathunkit . I've been taking my temps for years and years (I used to chart it every day for NFP). I've gone back and forth on oral/axillary but Matt Stone finally sealed it for me and I do axillary every time. However, I didn't realize it was *that* important to let it warm up. I usually only let it warm up 30 seconds to a minute before taking temp. What do you think the minimum is? 10 minutes is pretty much not going to happen for me but I could do 2. Would that work?

Also, do you have different temps depending on side? My left is always higher than my right. Do you go with higher or lower?