New To Peat: Weightlifting?

[Hans]

Okay then what do you think about heavy squats for 2-3 reps? Too much stress on the spinal column? I liked doing squats back in college and they are great for putting on weight, but tend to make the back uncomfortable (duh).

I think I'm going to start taking it easier with the lifting and just do either a few reps with heavy weight or more reps with light weight but just not until failuire anymore, after review the info on this thread. I will probably continue to do brisk walks at 3.5 mph uphill on the treadmill, but even that may not be optimal for respiration. I need to burn the calories though, oh well.

I think if you can comfortably squat heavy without pain or discomfort it's fine, but pushing through pain is bad. What kind of squats do you do? Low bar / high bar back squats or front squats? Goblin squats tend to be a very comfortable squat, but you can't go very heavy such as with the other squats.
I think heavy 2-3 reps are fine, however with 2 reps it might become too strenuous and 4+ is too tiring. When taking a weight to do 3 reps, leave a rep or so left in the tank. If you feel it's too easy, rest shorter.

 

[stevrd]

I wouldn't necessarily recommend what I do because I too suffer from fatigue, irritability. My temps/pulse could be higher. I suspect my metabolism is not where it could be (finasteride has something to do with it)

Anyways my routine I have seen the best results with for gaining muscle is Dante's Doggcrapp program. How to Build 50 Pounds of Muscle in 12 Months | T Nation This is not a very well known plan but a lot of Mr Olympia's have used it or something similar. There are two versions, one with more volume that is intended for steroid users and one with about half the work for "natural athletes". My take on it is this: 2 day split, day 1: push day, day 2: pull day. Day A, then, has chest, quads, triceps, shoulders. Day B is back, biceps, hamstrings, traps. The trick is that you do only one working set per muscle group, but do 2 light warm up sets first. On the "working set" you give it your best effort and really bring the pain. It's a drop-down tri-set which means that you do 10 controlled reps, drop the weight down about 15 %, do 8 more reps, drop the weight, do 6 reps. After I do an intense set like this for each muscle group, I do stretching excercises which help to stretch out and expand the muscle fascia. This should engorge the muscles with blood I suppose. So for chest I would take 40 lbs dumbells and do slow, controlled flies with a couple seconds pause at the bottom, and do just one or two sets with just arm stretching. For quads I might do some very slow negative reps on the leg press with light weight and just one leg.

The trick with this program is to only do one "insane" set per muscle group and do a lot of stretching, and its a 4 day cycle instead of the typical 7 days. So its push day, pull day, cardio/abs/calves day, rest day, then repeat using different excercises. Next cycle use different excercises again, and then on the 4th cycle repeat the excercises you did the first time and you should see progress.

I stopped taking this program seriously because I don't get a NO pump anymore since peating and also I just don't care about being very muscular anymore. However this was the best muscle-building program I ever tried, especially if you are eating tons of chicken breast and whey (Please don't do that).These days I just want to maintain a nice solid relatively lean build. So if I was 190-200 lbs, 10 % bodyfat that would be just awesome.



Okay then what do you think about heavy squats for 2-3 reps? Too much stress on the spinal column? I liked doing squats back in college and they are great for putting on weight, but tend to make the back uncomfortable (duh).

I think I'm going to start taking it easier with the lifting and just do either a few reps with heavy weight or more reps with light weight but just not until failuire anymore, after review the info on this thread. I will probably continue to do brisk walks at 3.5 mph uphill on the treadmill, but even that may not be optimal for respiration. I need to burn the calories though, oh well.

Feeling uncomfortable during a certain exercise, like squats often has to do with not being good at it, or just not enough time practicing it. I don't think squats are for everyone, but I see too many people who give up on them, who deep down, would otherwise love to do them if they didn't feel pain. I had issues from squats for a long time until I fixed my muscle imbalances and form. It has taken me years to perfect my squat. Now I never get pain and can train very heavy. One cue that is very important is to brace your core at the initiation of the eccentric phase. This keeps your torso upright, keeping your spine neutral and also opening up your hips, preventing impingement there as well. This cue alone has fixed my issues in the past.

 

[YourUniverse]

I wouldn't necessarily recommend what I do because I too suffer from fatigue, irritability. My temps/pulse could be higher. I suspect my metabolism is not where it could be (finasteride has something to do with it)

Anyways my routine I have seen the best results with for gaining muscle is Dante's Doggcrapp program. How to Build 50 Pounds of Muscle in 12 Months | T Nation This is not a very well known plan but a lot of Mr Olympia's have used it or something similar. There are two versions, one with more volume that is intended for steroid users and one with about half the work for "natural athletes". My take on it is this: 2 day split, day 1: push day, day 2: pull day. Day A, then, has chest, quads, triceps, shoulders. Day B is back, biceps, hamstrings, traps. The trick is that you do only one working set per muscle group, but do 2 light warm up sets first. On the "working set" you give it your best effort and really bring the pain. It's a drop-down tri-set which means that you do 10 controlled reps, drop the weight down about 15 %, do 8 more reps, drop the weight, do 6 reps. After I do an intense set like this for each muscle group, I do stretching excercises which help to stretch out and expand the muscle fascia. This should engorge the muscles with blood I suppose. So for chest I would take 40 lbs dumbells and do slow, controlled flies with a couple seconds pause at the bottom, and do just one or two sets with just arm stretching. For quads I might do some very slow negative reps on the leg press with light weight and just one leg.

The trick with this program is to only do one "insane" set per muscle group and do a lot of stretching, and its a 4 day cycle instead of the typical 7 days. So its push day, pull day, cardio/abs/calves day, rest day, then repeat using different excercises. Next cycle use different excercises again, and then on the 4th cycle repeat the excercises you did the first time and you should see progress.

I stopped taking this program seriously because I don't get a NO pump anymore since peating and also I just don't care about being very muscular anymore. However this was the best muscle-building program I ever tried, especially if you are eating tons of chicken breast and whey (Please don't do that).These days I just want to maintain a nice solid relatively lean build. So if I was 190-200 lbs, 10 % bodyfat that would be just awesome.



Okay then what do you think about heavy squats for 2-3 reps? Too much stress on the spinal column? I liked doing squats back in college and they are great for putting on weight, but tend to make the back uncomfortable (duh).

I think I'm going to start taking it easier with the lifting and just do either a few reps with heavy weight or more reps with light weight but just not until failuire anymore, after review the info on this thread. I will probably continue to do brisk walks at 3.5 mph uphill on the treadmill, but even that may not be optimal for respiration. I need to burn the calories though, oh well.

I did DC training for a year when I was 20, it was the best plan I ever used (or maybe I had the best metabolism of my adult life...) because I was always sweating, couldnt gain fat if I tried, and built a strong muscular body. The level of intensity scares me right now. I tore a pec ~5 years ago I think from cortisol slowly dissolving tissues for energy, so with Peat in mind Im sure I could make it work much better. Damn, we are the same size, and prefer the same routines.

When I did it though, it was with 2 rest-pause sets, and each exercise had a different prescribed rep range - like hamstring curls would be recommended to hit your first set for like 20, but for bench it was 7-10 (which was the most common rep range). I really common stat line for me was like 8-4-3, or 15 rest pause reps, and Dante said to increase the weight when you hit about 15 reps. I wonder if I was doing the plan for the roided guys the whole time, ***t. It was a long time ago.

 

[sladerunner69]

I did DC training for a year when I was 20, it was the best plan I ever used (or maybe I had the best metabolism of my adult life...) because I was always sweating, couldnt gain fat if I tried, and built a strong muscular body. The level of intensity scares me right now. I tore a pec ~5 years ago I think from cortisol slowly dissolving tissues for energy, so with Peat in mind Im sure I could make it work much better. Damn, we are the same size, and prefer the same routines.

When I did it though, it was with 2 rest-pause sets, and each exercise had a different prescribed rep range - like hamstring curls would be recommended to hit your first set for like 20, but for bench it was 7-10 (which was the most common rep range). I really common stat line for me was like 8-4-3, or 15 rest pause reps, and Dante said to increase the weight when you hit about 15 reps. I wonder if I was doing the plan for the roided guys the whole time, ***t. It was a long time ago.

Wow! You already know DC, fantastic. Great minds think alike, eh?

Yeah I remember Dante saying to do big ol' 20 rep sets for squats and leg work, which are usually just so unpleasant... And you are also correct about the rest-pause sets, I think I switched to drop sets on my own, I don't follow his advice to the T anymore because my ambition isn't to build more muscle it's purely to lean out and keep most of it.

Do you follow any of Peat's dietary advice? I do 99% of the time and drink loads of coffee, and when I lift now I can get much of a pump. Apparently this is actually a good thing because I have lower NO and lower serotonin, and feel rather good.

 

[sladerunner69]

No but they are not very common anymore.

I never said that. I said concentric only exercise is good for helping restore damaged dna/mitochondria. That being said training to failure is without a doubt extremely stressful to the body.

" Exercise physiologists, without mentioning functional systems, have recently discovered some principles that extend the discoveries of Meerson and Anokhin. They found that “concentric” contraction, that is, causing the muscle to contract against resistance, improves the muscle’s function, without injuring it. (Walking up a mountain causes concentric contractions to dominate in the leg muscles. Walking down the mountain injures the muscles, by stretching them, forcing them to elongate while bearing a load; they call that eccentric contraction.) Old people, who had extensively damaged mitochondrial DNA, were given a program of concentric exercise, and as their muscles adapted to the new activity, their mitochondrial DNA was found to have become normal.” - Ray Peat

" When a muscle is stretched while it’s trying to contract (as in running downhill; this is called “eccentric contraction”) it becomes inflamed, and the structural damage is cumulative. By exercising muscle with “concentric contractions,” allowing them to shorten against resistance, the cellular damage can be repaired.” - Ray Peat

" Different types of exercise have been identified as destructive or repairative to the mitochondria; “concentric” muscular work is said to be restorative to the mitochondria. " - Ray Peat

" Cytochrome oxidase in the brain can also be increased by mental stimulation, learning, and moderate exercise, but excessive exercise or the wrong kind of exercise (“eccentric”) can lower it " - Ray Peat

" Concentric resistance training has an anabolic effect on the whole body. " -Ray Peat

" I think periods of intense muscular exertion should be limited to 20 or 30 seconds, followed by rest periods. Otherwise, T3 falls and the stress signals rise. " - Ray Peat


No offense taken! I dont care what you do, or whether you think information I share is of value to your particular situation. My posts were meant for the OP, and hopefully something I said can help in some way.

Perfect, thanks so much for the quotes and other helpful advice!

 

[Hans]

My take on it is this: 2 day split, day 1: push day, day 2: pull day. Day A, then, has chest, quads, triceps, shoulders. Day B is back, biceps, hamstrings, traps. The trick is that you do only one working set per muscle group, but do 2 light warm up sets first. On the "working set" you give it your best effort and really bring the pain. It's a drop-down tri-set which means that you do 10 controlled reps, drop the weight down about 15 %, do 8 more reps, drop the weight, do 6 reps.

What kind of strength gains did you make on this program, with such short rest?

 

[YourUniverse]

Wow! You already know DC, fantastic. Great minds think alike, eh?

Yeah I remember Dante saying to do big ol' 20 rep sets for squats and leg work, which are usually just so unpleasant... And you are also correct about the rest-pause sets, I think I switched to drop sets on my own, I don't follow his advice to the T anymore because my ambition isn't to build more muscle it's purely to lean out and keep most of it.

Do you follow any of Peat's dietary advice? I do 99% of the time and drink loads of coffee, and when I lift now I can get much of a pump. Apparently this is actually a good thing because I have lower NO and lower serotonin, and feel rather good.

The widowmaker squat sets, yeah, now Im remembering more. Just registered on their forum again to soak up some info. I do follow Rays advice, 99% adherence, at least 6 days per week, orange juice, mangoes, milk, carrots, eggs, coffee, potatoes post workout and some vitamin K, which is a big difference compared to years back with canned tuna, protein shakes & low carb. Ive never really chased a pump so I dont notice if Im having a harder time getting one, but Ill second that its a good thing since less NO.

You have me intrigued, it would be a perfect plan while following such an anabolic nutrition style as Ray's. Dante was big on MASSIVE amounts of protein, I remember him recommending 300g+ daily, with a 7pm carb cutoff, and daily morning walks & longer LISS on off days. A quote of Dante's I remember all these years later, "[...]eat like a 300-pounder but do cardio like a guy who is 8 to 9 percent bodyfat and turn your body into a muscle-building, fat-burning blast furnace". Nice dream at least...

 

[stevrd]

" I think periods of intense muscular exertion should be limited to 20 or 30 seconds, followed by rest periods. Otherwise, T3 falls and the stress signals rise. " - Ray Peat

This goes along with what Salmonamb and I are saying about low reps actually being less fatiguing than more reps. 20-30 seconds is about 3-5 reps done with good form. Yes, when training heavy this way, you shouldn't train to failure. You want to do no more than an RPE of like 8 or 9. Personally I find the least stressful range to be 3 reps, while leaving a rep or two in the tank. You can train very heavy this way and stimulate all the muscle fibers. Actually, I think if one wanted to train the power lifts, because of the potential for injury with heavier loads, and the higher likelihood for injury with higher reps (due to form breakdown), one would never actually need to go above 3 reps to get as strong as he could possibly be. In addition, 3 rep sets can even be done for volume. I've done the 10 sets of 3 program before and definitely increased in size and strength. But with squats and deads, I don't find that sustainable. 3x3 is a great program and one can get very strong with just that if that's one's goal. And it is very efficient.

One of my favorite articles on strength training, exemplifies just how efficient it can be: Strength Training Frequency: Less Is More Than Enough

 

[Hans]

" I think periods of intense muscular exertion should be limited to 20 or 30 seconds, followed by rest periods. Otherwise, T3 falls and the stress signals rise. " - Ray Peat

This goes along with what Salmonamb and I are saying about low reps actually being less fatiguing than more reps. 20-30 seconds is about 3-5 reps done with good form. Yes, when training heavy this way, you shouldn't train to failure. You want to do no more than an RPE of like 8 or 9. Personally I find the least stressful range to be 3 reps, while leaving a rep or two in the tank. You can train very heavy this way and stimulate all the muscle fibers. Actually, I think if one wanted to train the power lifts, because of the potential for injury with heavier loads, and the higher likelihood for injury with higher reps (due to form breakdown), one would never actually need to go above 3 reps to get as strong as he could possibly be. In addition, 3 rep sets can even be done for volume. I've done the 10 sets of 3 program before and definitely increased in size and strength. But with squats and deads, I don't find that sustainable. 3x3 is a great program and one can get very strong with just that if that's one's goal. And it is very efficient.

One of my favorite articles on strength training, exemplifies just how efficient it can be: Strength Training Frequency: Less Is More Than Enough

The only problem I found with sticking to a certain amount of reps is progress. It tends to stall. I found that for each lift I needed different strategies to increase my strength, for example, chest did best on linear progression, legs I didn't have to change the rep/set scheme, and deadlift I did something that I don't even think there is a term for haha. I used to do 7x3 on my powerlifting exercises, which was a lot of fun, but I was pretty tanked after 5 sets and then I still had 2 sets left lol. But it worked very good. I found three sets for the foundation exercises to be just perfect, in terms of getting the reps and sets, putting in optimal effort and progressing without overexertion. It would maybe be best to start with low sets (3 sets), and then work up if you feel your muscles might need some extra stimulus, but never to the expense of overexertion.
I also used to train a muscle only once a week and that was perfect for gaining strength, but I noticed that when I trained a muscle twice a week, my hypertrophy was better.

 

[stevrd]

The only problem I found with sticking to a certain amount of reps is progress. It tends to stall. I found that for each lift I needed different strategies to increase my strength, for example, chest did best on linear progression, legs I didn't have to change the rep/set scheme, and deadlift I did something that I don't even think there is a term for haha. I used to do 7x3 on my powerlifting exercises, which was a lot of fun, but I was pretty tanked after 5 sets and then I still had 2 sets left lol. But it worked very good. I found three sets for the foundation exercises to be just perfect, in terms of getting the reps and sets, putting in optimal effort and progressing without overexertion. It would maybe be best to start with low sets (3 sets), and then work up if you feel your muscles might need some extra stimulus, but never to the expense of overexertion.
I also used to train a muscle only once a week and that was perfect for gaining strength, but I noticed that when I trained a muscle twice a week, my hypertrophy was better.

I think that is a wise assessment. I have found a similar pattern in me as well. The article I linked explains that as well. The important takeaway is that training a muscle once per week will produce good gains, and with progressive overload, they will be consistent. Training a muscle twice per week will produce better gains, but typically not by much. Again, everyone responds differently, however. The studies show something like 75-80% of ones gains can be had with training a muscle once per week. More training does produce more gains, but there is diminishing returns. In other words, 2 sets is better than 1, 3 sets better than 2, etc, but not by much. Training a muscle twice per week is better than once per week, but likely not by much. And "not by much" is the takeaway where somebody who has a busy life can decide if it's worth the extra 10-20% gains to spend twice as much time in the gym.

I don't believe in one set training. I don't think that's a good way to induce hypertrophy. I'm just trying to make a point. Every set one does after a certain point results in diminishing returns, and after a certain point can actually produce harm.

 

[stevrd]

I now train with a different mindset and that changed everything. Before, I was stuck with the mindset to train with heaviest weights to get the biggest muscles. I did heavy with good form and all, but that wasn't the answer. But now when I say "lighter weights", I'm not talking about training light. I still go as heavy as I possibly can with the exercise. The weights are lighter (than with what I used to train), but yet "heavier" because of the intensity.
It was only until I started training like this that I realized that my muscles were actually "weak" in this aspect. Yes I trained with heavier weights, but I couldn't do then what I can do now. I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to long rests again.

Salmonamb, when you say you go as heavy as possible but use lighter weight, do you mean that your mindset now is to "make a light weight feel heavy"? I hear one guy in the gym say this phrase and he is huge. Can't tell if he is on gear or not, but he never trains with heavy compounds, and uses fairly light weights, but focuses on every rep, trying to feel that mind-muscle connection. Is this what you are referring to?

Also, I don't understand what you mean when you say you train with intensity. How can you train intensely if you're not using very heavy weight? Do you control the tempo more now, contract the muscles more? I'm just curious how you're doing all this, because I see you've gotten good progress and I'd be willing to try at least some of the same principles with my lagging areas. I have really long arms. My wingspan is much longer than my height, and therefore my arms look proportionally skinny compared to my lats and chest, so I'd be interested in growing that area if I could. Thanks

 

[Luckytype]

Salmonamb, when you say you go as heavy as possible but use lighter weight, do you mean that your mindset now is to "make a light weight feel heavy"? I hear one guy in the gym say this phrase and he is huge. Can't tell if he is on gear or not, but he never trains with heavy compounds, and uses fairly light weights, but focuses on every rep, trying to feel that mind-muscle connection. Is this what you are referring to?

Also, I don't understand what you mean when you say you train with intensity. How can you train intensely if you're not using very heavy weight? Do you control the tempo more now, contract the muscles more? I'm just curious how you're doing all this, because I see you've gotten good progress and I'd be willing to try at least some of the same principles with my lagging areas. I have really long arms. My wingspan is much longer than my height, and therefore my arms look proportionally skinny compared to my lats and chest, so I'd be interested in growing that area if I could. Thanks

Intensity is the focus of energy that you put into the set it doesnt mean it has to be heavy. It is your control over it, the ability to contract through the range with the load, its the capacity to take the set to the end and utilize all the time under tension. I can make a set of 20 reps of a cable crossover despite the load as intense as a 3RM of a front squat, differences being fuel type consumed, the byproducts of those fuels, the utilization of oxygen and the mental drive to work all of the set. 20 reps and I would be in tears from the lactic acid burn, likely cramping and pumped to all hell. 3RM would be no pump, likely gasping for air and the inability to contact under that load. A more augmented consideration would be a 20rep squat vs 3rm squat. Tell me Tom Platz didnt train with intensity despite crazy high rep sets.

Many say intensity is the amount of effort combined with amount of recruitment, the practical definition in a body building sense is maximizing your control over the load at all points regardless of actual weight of the load.

Intensity for a powerlifter is different than a bodybuilder is different for a sprinter is different for an endurance athlete.

I have long arms as well, as long as most guys that are 6'4(im 5'10). If you havent read already, tricep size should be a priority. My delts sucked genetically, my figuring out what movements, their order and what loads to use to get the best contraction across them while still progressively overloading, i made tremendous progress. This in itself is very individual. Then by prioritizing them during the week and accumulating volume over the weeks and months, they finally responded and grew. At times it was literal hell, but I knew they werent growing off of less.

For example of the indivuduality people say for biceps incline curls get a good stretch and a good contraction. Same thing for the crucifix curl(standing double bicep in a cable station), it did absolutely NOTHING. Not for me no matter the incline, no matter the load or speed, incline and crucifix curls just dont work for me. But all the "pros" insist on it in their programs. My arms are ******* big, they pump easily, they are strong. They overshadow my shoulder progress. For me, they grow with straight bar curls, standing dumbell and reverse cable curling. Anything else and the contraction is garbage. Triceps are pushdowns, close grip pressing, dips, and overhead extension with a dumbell. Again, just for me there isnt much else that truly recruits tricep fibers for me.

Another thing is to not neglect your heavy compounds. Arms are very simple and they can take abuse, but you need to be willing to work with a load that allows you complete control over the contraction. For example, so many guys in the gym curling 30s should probably be at 20s, the same guys that ask how to grow arms. Once youve mastered a set with 20s and youve engorged the hell out of your biceps, then you can learn the same mastery with 22.5 or 25. Thats super important for dormant groups, it takes months sometimes to learn that type of control to engorge.

When someone asks me how i grew my delts i say, start by mastering a perfect lateral with perfect recruitment with 5 lbs. They laugh and say "no, really". When they say how did i grow my arms, I say learn to destroy your arms with a 10lb curl...same response. When they ask how to barbell row 275, I say "learn how to make your back muscles sore with 95lbs"..you have to learn recruitment then you can overload better progressively.

 

[stevrd]

Intensity is the focus of energy that you put into the set it doesnt mean it has to be heavy. It is your control over it, the ability to contract through the range with the load, its the capacity to take the set to the end and utilize all the time under tension. I can make a set of 20 reps of a cable crossover despite the load as intense as a 3RM of a front squat, differences being fuel type consumed, the byproducts of those fuels, the utilization of oxygen and the mental drive to work all of the set. 20 reps and I would be in tears from the lactic acid burn, likely cramping and pumped to all hell. 3RM would be no pump, likely gasping for air and the inability to contact under that load. A more augmented consideration would be a 20rep squat vs 3rm squat. Tell me Tom Platz didnt train with intensity despite crazy high rep sets.

Many say intensity is the amount of effort combined with amount of recruitment, the practical definition in a body building sense is maximizing your control over the load at all points regardless of actual weight of the load.

Intensity for a powerlifter is different than a bodybuilder is different for a sprinter is different for an endurance athlete.

I have long arms as well, as long as most guys that are 6'4(im 5'10). If you havent read already, tricep size should be a priority. My delts sucked genetically, my figuring out what movements, their order and what loads to use to get the best contraction across them while still progressively overloading, i made tremendous progress. This in itself is very individual. Then by prioritizing them during the week and accumulating volume over the weeks and months, they finally responded and grew. At times it was literal hell, but I knew they werent growing off of less.

For example of the indivuduality people say for biceps incline curls get a good stretch and a good contraction. Same thing for the crucifix curl(standing double bicep in a cable station), it did absolutely NOTHING. Not for me no matter the incline, no matter the load or speed, incline and crucifix curls just dont work for me. But all the "pros" insist on it in their programs. My arms are ******* big, they pump easily, they are strong. They overshadow my shoulder progress. For me, they grow with straight bar curls, standing dumbell and reverse cable curling. Anything else and the contraction is garbage. Triceps are pushdowns, close grip pressing, dips, and overhead extension with a dumbell. Again, just for me there isnt much else that truly recruits tricep fibers for me.

Another thing is to not neglect your heavy compounds. Arms are very simple and they can take abuse, but you need to be willing to work with a load that allows you complete control over the contraction. For example, so many guys in the gym curling 30s should probably be at 20s, the same guys that ask how to grow arms. Once youve mastered a set with 20s and youve engorged the hell out of your biceps, then you can learn the same mastery with 22.5 or 25. Thats super important for dormant groups, it takes months sometimes to learn that type of control to engorge.

When someone asks me how i grew my delts i say, start by mastering a perfect lateral with perfect recruitment with 5 lbs. They laugh and say "no, really". When they say how did i grow my arms, I say learn to destroy your arms with a 10lb curl...same response. When they ask how to barbell row 275, I say "learn how to make your back muscles sore with 95lbs"..you have to learn recruitment then you can overload better progressively.

Thanks for the reply. That makes sense to me. I have been somewhat following that for a while. I do not ego lift at all. I often work with about 70% of my 1RM, which in powerlifting standards is light weight. But what people don't realize is one doesn't get stronger demonstrating strength, he gets stronger practicing it, and in order to practice it you need to be using a light enough weight. For chest, I had shitty development until I started pause benching, with a 1-2 sec pause at the bottom. These guys who bounce at the bottom are skipping out on their chest development. When I do chins, I do a dead hang at the bottom and angle my back so that I'm working more of my lats. So I do follow some of those principles, but I think that for some of my lagging areas I need to do more direct work to get those areas to grow.

Also, what do you think of partial reps? So many people are against them. The research indicates full range of motion is better. But there's something to be said about them.

 

[Hans]

do you mean that your mindset now is to "make a light weight feel heavy"?

Yes and no. Yes because it's to do the exercise with such focus, control and that mind to muscle connection so that the weight does feel heavy, but as you practice this way of training you are able to progress in weight. I don't take a light weight, but a weight that is heavy enough to tax the muscle, but not so heavy that I can not complete my reps and sets successfully.
My goal is not to stay with "somewhat light" weights, but to keep on increasing my strength until I can handle the heavy weight I use to jurk around, with the same way I train now . Never sacrificing form for weight. It's like @Luckytype said here:

For example, so many guys in the gym curling 30s should probably be at 20s, the same guys that ask how to grow arms. Once youve mastered a set with 20s and youve engorged the hell out of your biceps, then you can learn the same mastery with 22.5 or 25. Thats super important for dormant groups, it takes months sometimes to learn that type of control to engorge.

Compounds are great but people tend to do them wrong as they always go too heavy, because it's much easier to do so with a bar than with DBs.
Also, guys using drugs/roids are able to handle much more volume, whereas for a natural guy it's best to destroy a muscle quickly - meaning not such high volume but with very high intensity and short rest.
So for your arms it may be best to do 1 compound and then some DB isolation movements. So say for triceps - dips, sculls, overhead rope triceps extensions and then kickback. Biceps - BB curls, preacher curls, incline curls and spider curls.
With intensity I mean to train faster (as in the duration of the workout), but not lighter. Heavy weight (heavy as in what your muscle can handle for so many reps and sets, with perfect form etc. and not the heavy that you might think to be heavy in lbs), but intense with short rest.
Regular bench press will give you suboptimal results as it's an inferior exercise for pec development, because it doesn't give supreme pec muscle activation.
Partial reps can be a great tool to use to bring up a lagging bodypart. For example the lower part of your delt (where it's inserted into the arm) will get far better results if you focus more on the upper half of lateral raises than the whole movement. Whereas the lower part of the later raise shifts the tension to the upper delt (closer to the origin).

 

[stevrd]

Yes and no. Yes because it's to do the exercise with such focus, control and that mind to muscle connection so that the weight does feel heavy, but as you practice this way of training you are able to progress in weight. I don't take a light weight, but a weight that is heavy enough to tax the muscle, but not so heavy that I can not complete my reps and sets successfully.
My goal is not to stay with "somewhat light" weights, but to keep on increasing my strength until I can handle the heavy weight I use to jurk around, with the same way I train now . Never sacrificing form for weight. It's like @Luckytype said here:

Compounds are great but people tend to do them wrong as they always go too heavy, because it's much easier to do so with a bar than with DBs.
Also, guys using drugs/roids are able to handle much more volume, whereas for a natural guy it's best to destroy a muscle quickly - meaning not such high volume but with very high intensity and short rest.
So for your arms it may be best to do 1 compound and then some DB isolation movements. So say for triceps - dips, sculls, overhead rope triceps extensions and then kickback. Biceps - BB curls, preacher curls, incline curls and spider curls.
With intensity I mean to train faster (as in the duration of the workout), but not lighter. Heavy weight (heavy as in what your muscle can handle for so many reps and sets, with perfect form etc. and not the heavy that you might think to be heavy in lbs), but intense with short rest.
Regular bench press will give you suboptimal results as it's an inferior exercise for pec development, because it doesn't give supreme pec muscle activation.
Partial reps can be a great tool to use to bring up a lagging bodypart. For example the lower part of your delt (where it's inserted into the arm) will get far better results if you focus more on the upper half of lateral raises than the whole movement. Whereas the lower part of the later raise shifts the tension to the upper delt (closer to the origin).

It's funny because, Scott Able promotes basically the same thing for naturals. He promotes focusing on form, muscle contraction, really feeling it. He takes it a step further though, and says to train full body five days per week, one exercise per muscle group, per day. I'm not so sure how naturals can recover from those workouts.

My foray into partials was training lats. I would do lat pulldowns, but only focus on 3/4 of the movement, fully stretching my lats at the top and pulling the handles down to no lower than chin height. This kept constant tension on my lats. I felt it work my lats more than anything I've ever tried, even pull ups. What do you think about constant tension training, in that regard? Like never locking out?

So what you are talking about is not metabolic fatigue training? I've just always known pump-based training to produce only transient results, that would quickly fade after taking a week off of training. "Pump training" thus seemed more like just transient cellular swelling, than anything else. "Destroying a muscle quickly" as you say, does not sound like pump/metabolic fatigue training.

I'm not sure if you've heard of Jason Gallant, natural bodybuilder. But he promotes naturals training full body every day, just as Scott Abel does. His rational is it's like having callouses, whereby working with your hands every day will build callouses up, whereas using your hands infrequently will just tear them up, and then they have to rebuild again. He also compared it to getting a tan vs a sunburn, an analogy that is meant to mean that short and frequent bursts of training would produce better results. He tells his clients to hit full body almost every day, however it will just be a small stimulus, like 3x10 squats, 3x10 DB bench, 3x10 lat pulldowns, then the next day would be some other variation of legs/push/pull or arms/shoulders, etc. Not sure if this resonates with you or not. I'm just trying to find parallels between viewpoints. There is a lot of dissonance between trainees who train by feel and those who train by strength. And I know results can be had from both, but as you said, maybe physique goals can be met faster if one trains by feel. Thanks for your input.

A lot of people who train by feel and are jacked often get accused of drugs because "how can you be that big and not be strong in the bench/squat/deadlift?"

 

[Luckytype]

It'sA lot of people who train by feel and are jacked often get accused of drugs because "how can you be that big and not be strong in the bench/squat/deadlift?"

Not directed at you, but it is important for the unfamiliar to not that those who are strong in certain lifts regardless of the fact they lack a mind muscle connection still lift with complete recruitment of the groups required to perform a movement pattern. By this im speaking of elite powerlifters and the naturally strong.

That said, ita a lot of neural differences in a powerlifter despite the recruitment of the muscle groups. Aside from fuel systems and support mechanisms immediate neural drive is a major performer here versus a bodybuilder which recruits more motor units(the fiber and nerve pair) as time goes on in the set. So keep in mind recruitment is completely different from a neural standpoint despite the goal being repetitively able to acheive a task. Obviously these overlap but by varying degrees.




Im guilty of retardedly for high volume. It was what worked at the time. But it was the focus on the group. Full body routine only takes away from other stuff for me but makes me really good at full body routine without adding much lean tissue

 

[Hans]

It's funny because, Scott Able promotes basically the same thing for naturals. He promotes focusing on form, muscle contraction, really feeling it. He takes it a step further though, and says to train full body five days per week, one exercise per muscle group, per day. I'm not so sure how naturals can recover from those workouts.

My foray into partials was training lats. I would do lat pulldowns, but only focus on 3/4 of the movement, fully stretching my lats at the top and pulling the handles down to no lower than chin height. This kept constant tension on my lats. I felt it work my lats more than anything I've ever tried, even pull ups. What do you think about constant tension training, in that regard? Like never locking out?

So what you are talking about is not metabolic fatigue training? I've just always known pump-based training to produce only transient results, that would quickly fade after taking a week off of training. "Pump training" thus seemed more like just transient cellular swelling, than anything else. "Destroying a muscle quickly" as you say, does not sound like pump/metabolic fatigue training.

I'm not sure if you've heard of Jason Gallant, natural bodybuilder. But he promotes naturals training full body every day, just as Scott Abel does. His rational is it's like having callouses, whereby working with your hands every day will build callouses up, whereas using your hands infrequently will just tear them up, and then they have to rebuild again. He also compared it to getting a tan vs a sunburn, an analogy that is meant to mean that short and frequent bursts of training would produce better results. He tells his clients to hit full body almost every day, however it will just be a small stimulus, like 3x10 squats, 3x10 DB bench, 3x10 lat pulldowns, then the next day would be some other variation of legs/push/pull or arms/shoulders, etc. Not sure if this resonates with you or not. I'm just trying to find parallels between viewpoints. There is a lot of dissonance between trainees who train by feel and those who train by strength. And I know results can be had from both, but as you said, maybe physique goals can be met faster if one trains by feel. Thanks for your input.

A lot of people who train by feel and are jacked often get accused of drugs because "how can you be that big and not be strong in the bench/squat/deadlift?"

Yeah 5 times a week is crazy haha. I think that's a bit crazy, but then again it can work for real serious competitive bodybuilders. I think what your doing for lats is really good for building the mass. Larry scott did about the same thing for isolating the lats. However, I have found for getting much greater definition in your back you have to go all the way to the top. And by the top I mean take the bar to your lower chest, below your nipples. Arch your back back when you do this. Many people are not strong enough for this so it would be good to start with a pulldown machine and work your way up. Yes I never lock out too, but I squeeze my muscle maximally at the end of each contraction. So it's not taking a break by locking out, but actually increasing the intensity and total amount of work your do during each set.
Yes pump training never seem to produce lasting results. See, I don't train like regular gym goers. I don't do set after set of the same exercise. I use something unique, but it's so good I don't want to give it away at this time.
I have not heard of Jason before, but looks like his technique is more for advanced individuals. I think someone can start at 1x10 for each exercise and work up from there if they can handle it, but 3x10 each day seem a bit crazy, for me at least, I wouldn't do something like that.
Squats, bench and deads really ain't the best exercises to build a good physique. Deadlift just builds thickness in the lower back and doesn't give definition at all and can easily be replaced by hyperextensions. Squats depends on how you do them. Regular bench, like I mentioned, is also not the best, and could rather be replaced with guillotine press.

 

[Hans]

Not directed at you, but it is important for the unfamiliar to not that those who are strong in certain lifts regardless of the fact they lack a mind muscle connection still lift with complete recruitment of the groups required to perform a movement pattern. By this im speaking of elite powerlifters and the naturally strong.

I used to lift heavy on the main three lifts, and I thought my mind to connection was good with the other exercises I did, but it never got me the growth I wanted. The three main lifts when done very heavy, regardless of complete muscle activation, will not lead to a great physique. Powerlifters surely don't have the biggest and best looking pecs

 

[Cirion]

Honestly, I think most people think WAY too hard about training. 99% people are not considered "Advanced" and thus do not need "Advanced" techniques which is what a lot of people here are discussing. Don't get me wrong, I love to nerd out over training techniques as well, like all of you folks and so I've really enjoyed reading all the comments here!

After doing some more reading around here, I believe now that if you wanna make gains, that nutrition/metabolism should be the first place you go to, not training directly. I mean, you see people here saying that once they cure their metabolism, that they actually gain muscle / lean out without even hitting the gym (!!!). This is particularly noticeable among steroid users - without even hitting the gym, they can and do make muscle gains (even in some weird muscles, like jaw muscles).

Of course, if you do actually want to improve your physique to its optimum level, it's going to necessitate some form of hitting the gym / calisthenics etc, especially if you desire to improve in the big three (Bench, Squat, Deadlift) - which I want to do eventually, but I plan to powerlift only once I actually fix my health, rather than try to work it in whilst improving my health.

What I'm doing now is the programs my coaches prescribed for me, but with less sets (they might yell at me, but whatever). I got a really nice arm pump (lasting through last night into today) with literally only ONE set of DB bench, and ONE set of horizontal rows. I'm trying to get over the mindset of endless sets that is instilled from steroid users, and it is humbling to realize you can stimulate your muscles with VERY little effort (15 minute workout) if you're fully natural.

 

[Hans]

I think most people think WAY too hard about training. 99% people are not considered "Advanced" and thus do not need "Advanced" techniques which is what a lot of people here are discussing.

Totally true. Every once in a while I have to "slap" myself and realize I tend to get too extreme about my nutrition and training, techniques, supplements and what not. When in the mean while you should realize what is your goals, do I want to be a top bodybuilder? No...then why do I obsess about training and nutrition as if that is my goal. You can still build a great physique using a minimalist approach. Then also you must ask yourself are you still having fun, are you actually enjoying other aspects of your life as well? For instance I love to do parkour, but I quit because what if it interferes with my muscle gains? Lol, way too extreme. Focus on enjoying every aspect of your life and don't obsess about things.
Maybe this has been said before, but I just wanted to say what I re-realized this last couple of days.