New To Peat: Weightlifting?

[YourUniverse]

There's actually evidence showing greater muscle fiber recruitment for the upper chest from doing decline bench presses: SuppVersity EMG Series - Musculus Pectoralis Major: The Very Best Exercises for a Chiseled Chest - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

I take this with a grain of salt, however, because EMG is related to load, and more motor units firing due to higher weight on a decline would induce a bigger EMG response. Nevertheless, it does make you think. Maybe one actually can build a complete chest with flat or decline bench. And to your point, which you are correct, a heavy weight does tend to induce better muscle gains due to higher intensity, more motor units firing.

You can also get a bigger upper chest from properly performed overhead presses, if you are using the upper chest. No incline presses necessary. The problem is most people only go halfway down or to just their chins, not getting the benefit of upper chest activation. If you do overhead presses correctly, you actually feel your upper chest contracting.

You only think Im correct because youve read a similar article or piece of research to what I have - neither of us is "correct", we are both amalgamations of experience and information.

It seems I tend toward clinician results, and you toward empirical evidence, and thats fair.

 

[Hans]

Maybe one actually can build a complete chest with flat or decline bench.

Regular bench press is actually not so good for building the chest. Inferior activation, plus lots of assistance from other muscles.

a heavy weight does tend to induce better muscle gains due to higher intensity, more motor units firing.

I believe one must train heavy, but not in the sense of as much weight as possible, but with the most exertion as possible while doing high intensity (shorter rest) with maximal amount of focus. This will ensure the highest intensity, most muscle fiber recruitment and the fastest growth possible, without ego lifting and actually bad muscle recruitment, despite heavy weight. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Hans]

Great points, I agree completely. As I stated before, compounds can take you really far, probably giving you 90% of your genetic potential. But sure, if one has lagging areas to work on that just won't grow after already building a foundation, and if he cares enough to change this, then I believe he should add different exercises in to develop these areas more fully.

Compounds can take you far yes, in any athletic arena, like you said. For the guy that do want a more symmetric physique, why wait till 90% of genetic potential with compounds before deciding to round it off with isolations? I'm actually making much greater gains now with less than half the weight I used before and not even doing BB compounds. DB bilateral compounds yes with high intensity, and it's building me like no compound ever could.

 

[stevrd]

I believe one must train heavy, but not in the sense of as much weight as possible, but with the most exertion as possible while doing high intensity (shorter rest) with maximal amount of focus. This will ensure the highest intensity, most muscle fiber recruitment and the fastest growth possible, without ego lifting and actually bad muscle recruitment, despite heavy weight. I hope that makes sense.

Not necessarily. What you are referring to is a more time-efficient way to train. But the reality is, metabolic fatigue training, with shorter rest periods induces a greater pump, and also increases metabolic byproducts more, but it doesn't necessarily lead to greater hypertrophy. There is research by Dr. Schoenfeld to back this up. Sufficient rest between sets ensures that your sets can be replicated, which also raises your total work load. Not resting enough just ensures that you won't be able to lift the same weight for the same amount of reps. Intensity is important, but that doesn't mean short rest periods. Lifting heavy does not = ego lifting. Lifting with good form without form breakdown, and using heavy weights is what I'm talking about, which is not the same as somebody trying to lift heavier than he actually can. There is a difference between training for strength and demonstrating strength. Most people in commercial gyms do the latter, to show off, and never get anywhere.

 

[stevrd]

Compounds can take you far yes, in any athletic arena, like you said. For the guy that do want a more symmetric physique, why wait till 90% of genetic potential with compounds before deciding to round it off with isolations? I'm actually making much greater gains now with less than half the weight I used before and not even doing BB compounds. DB bilateral compounds yes with high intensity, and it's building me like no compound ever could.

I respect your experience, but I think there are many variables at play. Who's to say that the reason you are making progress isn't because of the foundation you built with compounds? For the guy who wants to build a more symmetric physique, I think he should use isolations. But to be able to build symmetry you need to have muscle in the first place. If you don't have any muscle, how can you build symmetry? Isolation exercises are not good choices to build the majority of your skeletal muscle. I'm not that rigid of a person to suggest that people should only train the 6 movement patterns.I think people should focus on those, but if they want to also include other isolations, more power to them.

I'm referring to the guy who wants to go from 150-170#. He's not going to get there using concentration curls and cable crossovers.

My experience in the past with training mostly isolation exercises was negative. I did not get anywhere. I have since built most of my physique with compounds. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the science of bodybuilding when it comes to volume and intensity. In my experience, I have found that just doing more volume of compounds worked best for me.

 

[Hans]

Every individual responds differently to exercise programs. I still do compounds, just not the three powerlifting ones. I used to and they were my favorites.
I'm not against strength either, I love going heavy and building strength. However, that didn't build my physique. I'm literally adding inches to my physique with what I'm doing now.
Yes I've read Dr Dr. Schoenfeld's research and also many other weight lifting research. I know what the research says about it.
"Sufficient rest between sets ensures that your sets can be replicated, which also raises your total work load." True, but I don't train that way. My physique isn't getting bigger as a result of a bigger pump. I got massive pumps when I rested long as well, however I didn't make nearly the gains as I do now. Higher intensity is the key here. Before I started doing this, I was having big conflict in my head about how can this even work, all the research contradicts it. Until I started doing it, I started reaping the benefits. I think a lot of people just don't want to train that intense. I actually start sweating before my workout just thinking about it haha, but I do find it much more beneficial.

 

[stevrd]

BTW to clarify my points about the 6 basic movement patterns, I did not mean that people have to just do the power lifts. I believe some type of variation is necessary, and one can substitute the power lifts with other exercises that have the same movement pattern. So in other words, some people have back problems and can't BB deadlift, but can trap bar deadlift fine. That is an excellent choice. I recommend it to people who have knee problems and can't squat. With low handles, it is an especially good leg builder. Dumbbell bench and shoulder presses are great too. Dumbbell bent over rows, lat pulldowns, etc... Using progressive overload on any of those will produce gains, and a foundation.

I think some people misinterpret compound lifts to mean barbells. While I do have a preference for barbells, I believe that it's not always necessary, and for certain people, their anthropometry may limit them to certain exercises.

 

[stevrd]

Before I started doing this, I was having big conflict in my head about how can this even work, all the research contradicts this. Until I started doing it, gains showed up like crazy. I think many people just don't want to train that intense. I actually start sweating before my workout just thinking about it haha.

Lol, and that is ultimately why we have these conversations. I always come into conversations with an open mind. What type of workout program do you follow that is producing these gains you've never seen before? Do you do a lot of volume?

 

[stevrd]

You only think Im correct because youve read a similar article or piece of research to what I have - neither of us is "correct", we are both amalgamations of experience and information.

It seems I tend toward clinician results, and you toward empirical evidence, and thats fair.

Fair enough. I think I am that way because the world is full of liars, so I am very skeptical of what people say. That's why I lean on science over anecdote. Though, there is still so much science can't yet explain, and for that reason, it's reasonable to experiment with things to see how you are affected.

 

[Sobieski]

Also, to add to my previous post, the more I do and the more I see, I become increasingly convinced that the average natural male can maximise most of their natural potential muscular size with basic body weight training alone. Max strength is another matter however.

There have been some great points made, but to reiterate my original post on using calisthenics as one's main training routine, if one wants to become ripped and muscular, calisthenics will do the job alone; I probably wasn't clear enough when I said 'most' of their potential and not become as huge as a bodybuilder or as strong as a power lifter. I'm talking about what most people want; a lean, muscular, healthy physique. With the right hormonal environment and knowledge I believe any healthy male has the capacity to do so with the most minimal exercise.

My point was to address the fact that lots of young people (many of my friends for example) are going to the gym 5-6 days a week, doing insane weight lifting routines and doing fad diets, unsurprisingly feeling like ***t and making no progress whilst suffering various degrees of joint pain. If a young man was to focus on an anabolic diet (Peat) and stick to even a basic, low stress routine with enough volume to induce hypertrophy (even just push ups, pull ups and bw squats/sprints for example) they would make far superior progress to wasting their money on gym memberships, stressful/catabolic diets and useless powders and supplements.

I can speak from my own experience as well as people I personally know who also follow a similar mindset to myself.

 

[sladerunner69]

+1. I tried cutting fat to below 10% of calories, and among many other things, my weight skyrockted.

What exactly do you mean by "among many other things"? Did your libido skyrocket as well?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[sladerunner69]

Lower reps, with lengthy rest periods. Not getting out of breath. If they have hydraulic concentric machines maybe focus on those. Or if they have airdynes, rowing machines, bikes, those can all be used at a low intensity allowing you to focus on concentric exercise, which is restorative/anabolic to the mitochondria.

Well the only "hydraulic" machines I have ever come across are those power rowers with the water wheels. Is this what you are referring to? Also by concentric exercise you are talking about normal reps correct? Eccentric reps are the negative ones if memory serves. Concentric would be akin to the usual tequnique. Low reps with heavy weight can be fairly taxing on the CNS and heavy squats, deadlifts, and benchpresses will almost always give me back/neck discomfort for days.

 

[Sobieski]

Well the only "hydraulic" machines I have ever come across are those power rowers with the water wheels. Is this what you are referring to? Also by concentric exercise you are talking about normal reps correct? Eccentric reps are the negative ones if memory serves. Concentric would be akin to the usual tequnique. Low reps with heavy weight can be fairly taxing on the CNS and heavy squats, deadlifts, and benchpresses will almost always give me back/neck discomfort for days.

I agree with this; if someone is suffering from metabolic/endocrine dysfunction, heavy weights are the very last thing they want to be doing.

 

[tca300]

Well the only "hydraulic" machines I have ever come across are those power rowers with the water wheels. Is this what you are referring to? Also by concentric exercise you are talking about normal reps correct? Eccentric reps are the negative ones if memory serves. Concentric would be akin to the usual tequnique. Low reps with heavy weight can be fairly taxing on the CNS and heavy squats, deadlifts, and benchpresses will almost always give me back/neck discomfort for days.

Machines that only give you resistance during the concentric portion of the lift, where the muscles return to the starting point of the lift without resistance. Low reps doesn't mean heavy weight. The purpose of the low reps is to not tax the endocrine system negatively. A working set that is very difficult and lasts for 20 seconds or more is enough to lower T3. So using a moderately heavy weight, for low reps, staying away from failure, will allow good muscle stimulation without the burden of a grinding lengthy set, or a super taxing heavy weight that you could only possibly lift 3-5 times or less.

Example: a squat where you can do 10 perfect controlled reps with lets say 250lbs, before you hit mechanical failure. You would take that same weight, but only do 5 perfect reps, with good form, then rest and fully recover. If muscle building is the goal then, many non failure sets like stated above could be performed, watching out so as not to over tax yourself. Thats what I meant in a nut shell.

If someone is very sick, then heavy lifting shouldn't be done at all, and sticking to easy concentric hydraulic machines to help restore damaged dna/mitochondria would be best.

 

[Hans]

BTW to clarify my points about the 6 basic movement patterns, I did not mean that people have to just do the power lifts. I believe some type of variation is necessary, and one can substitute the power lifts with other exercises that have the same movement pattern. So in other words, some people have back problems and can't BB deadlift, but can trap bar deadlift fine. That is an excellent choice. I recommend it to people who have knee problems and can't squat. With low handles, it is an especially good leg builder. Dumbbell bench and shoulder presses are great too. Dumbbell bent over rows, lat pulldowns, etc... Using progressive overload on any of those will produce gains, and a foundation.

I think some people misinterpret compound lifts to mean barbells. While I do have a preference for barbells, I believe that it's not always necessary, and for certain people, their anthropometry may limit them to certain exercises.

I should have clarified, that I was mainly referring to the three main powerlifting lifts. I'm not against bar exercises, I think their great. When I focused a lot on flat bench press I gained a fair amount of size in the belly of my pecs. Same with my other muscles that I used heavy weight. I gained size (to a certain degree), but lacked development overall. What I do now is still the same exercises (excluding the 3 main powerlifting movements) but differently. For example, instead of flat bench press, I bring my legs up and cross my feet to keep my back flat on the bench and use a wider grip.
Like when I did heavy back squats, I got big legs, but awful development, and I was doing leg press, lunges, leg extensions etc... When I started doing more erect squats, my leg development increased and my quads are actually much stronger now, despite lifting much lighter weight. For instance, you won't get that line between your pecs from doing just flat bench and DB exercises. You need to specifically focus on crushing your pecs together on specific exercises to target that area.
The volume I do now is about the same, maybe slightly less, but much lighter and with much greater intensity and focus.
I now train with a different mindset and that changed everything. Before, I was stuck with the mindset to train with heaviest weights to get the biggest muscles. I did heavy with good form and all, but that wasn't the answer. But now when I say "lighter weights", I'm not talking about training light. I still go as heavy as I possibly can with the exercise. The weights are lighter (than with what I used to train), but yet "heavier" because of the intensity.
It was only until I started training like this that I realized that my muscles were actually "weak" in this aspect. Yes I trained with heavier weights, but I couldn't do then what I can do now. I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to long rests again.

 

[sladerunner69]

Machines that only give you resistance during the concentric portion of the lift, where the muscles return to the starting point of the lift without resistance. Low reps doesn't mean heavy weight. The purpose of the low reps is to not tax the endocrine system negatively. A working set that is very difficult and lasts for 20 seconds or more is enough to lower T3. So using a moderately heavy weight, for low reps, staying away from failure, will allow good muscle stimulation without the burden of a grinding lengthy set, or a super taxing heavy weight that you could only possibly lift 3-5 times or less.

Example: a squat where you can do 10 perfect controlled reps with lets say 250lbs, before you hit mechanical failure. You would take that same weight, but only do 5 perfect reps, with good form, then rest and fully recover. If muscle building is the goal then, many non failure sets like stated above could be performed, watching out so as not to over tax yourself. Thats what I meant in a nut shell.

If someone is very sick, then heavy lifting shouldn't be done at all, and sticking to easy concentric hydraulic machines to help restore damaged dna/mitochondria would be best.

These hydraulic machines you speak of, aren't they all intended to be cardio machines? Or perhaps there are higher resistance ones that I am not aware of. Anyways this idea of not achieving failure is difficult for me to accept, you . Where did you come across this information about training to failure damaging the mitochondria? Ray Peat articles or pubmed studies?

I have always trained to failure with all of my sets in the gym, it is that level of intensity and effort that helped me grow more muscular than most other guys. No offense but I think I'm going to need more than just your take on it to stop.

I agree with this; if someone is suffering from metabolic/endocrine dysfunction, heavy weights are the very last thing they want to be doing.

Lighter weights or moderate weight like 10-20 reps can also feel quite stressful and taxing on the aerobic system.

 

[YourUniverse]

These hydraulic machines you speak of, aren't they all intended to be cardio machines? Or perhaps there are higher resistance ones that I am not aware of. Anyways this idea of not achieving failure is difficult for me to accept, you . Where did you come across this information about training to failure damaging the mitochondria? Ray Peat articles or pubmed studies?

I have always trained to failure with all of my sets in the gym, it is that level of intensity and effort that helped me grow more muscular than most other guys. No offense but I think I'm going to need more than just your take on it to stop.

Lighter weights or moderate weight like 10-20 reps can also feel quite stressful and taxing on the aerobic system.

Could you give an example of what a typical routine looks like for you that works well? I ask because through reading past epic threads on this board Ive come across your height/weight and its basically exactly what I was lean (I have excess body fat now). Also ask because I know I tend towards getting fried CNS, from gravitating toward hitting failure too often, but you say it works well for you - could you outline what you do?

 

[Hans]

Lighter weights or moderate weight like 10-20 reps can also feel quite stressful and taxing on the aerobic system

True, it can be very stressful. I think for the least stressful workout, you have to train mainly on your creatine phosphate system, or where you feel most explosive. Then you can still go heavy, 85%+ of your 1RM and do just 3 reps. Even if you are you able to do more, but have to grind it out and you lose that explosiveness, it's best to stop the set, and keep it for the next set. 3 reps will generate the least metabolic waste products. With long rest 3-5 min between sets. The trick would be also not to do too many sets. 3 sets being ample. And maybe just to 2 exercises per muscle group for that workout. Second exercise you can maybe go a bit lighter, 6-8 reps or so. This would just be a simple workout that isn't very stressful.

 

[tca300]

These hydraulic machines you speak of, aren't they all intended to be cardio machines

No but they are not very common anymore.

Where did you come across this information about training to failure damaging the mitochondria?

I never said that. I said concentric only exercise is good for helping restore damaged dna/mitochondria. That being said training to failure is without a doubt extremely stressful to the body.

" Exercise physiologists, without mentioning functional systems, have recently discovered some principles that extend the discoveries of Meerson and Anokhin. They found that “concentric” contraction, that is, causing the muscle to contract against resistance, improves the muscle’s function, without injuring it. (Walking up a mountain causes concentric contractions to dominate in the leg muscles. Walking down the mountain injures the muscles, by stretching them, forcing them to elongate while bearing a load; they call that eccentric contraction.) Old people, who had extensively damaged mitochondrial DNA, were given a program of concentric exercise, and as their muscles adapted to the new activity, their mitochondrial DNA was found to have become normal.” - Ray Peat

" When a muscle is stretched while it’s trying to contract (as in running downhill; this is called “eccentric contraction”) it becomes inflamed, and the structural damage is cumulative. By exercising muscle with “concentric contractions,” allowing them to shorten against resistance, the cellular damage can be repaired.” - Ray Peat

" Different types of exercise have been identified as destructive or repairative to the mitochondria; “concentric” muscular work is said to be restorative to the mitochondria. " - Ray Peat

" Cytochrome oxidase in the brain can also be increased by mental stimulation, learning, and moderate exercise, but excessive exercise or the wrong kind of exercise (“eccentric”) can lower it " - Ray Peat

" Concentric resistance training has an anabolic effect on the whole body. " -Ray Peat

" I think periods of intense muscular exertion should be limited to 20 or 30 seconds, followed by rest periods. Otherwise, T3 falls and the stress signals rise. " - Ray Peat

No offense but I think I'm going to need more than just your take on it to stop.

No offense taken! I dont care what you do, or whether you think information I share is of value to your particular situation. My posts were meant for the OP, and hopefully something I said can help in some way.

 

[sladerunner69]

Could you give an example of what a typical routine looks like for you that works well? I ask because through reading past epic threads on this board Ive come across your height/weight and its basically exactly what I was lean (I have excess body fat now). Also ask because I know I tend towards getting fried CNS, from gravitating toward hitting failure too often, but you say it works well for you - could you outline what you do?

I wouldn't necessarily recommend what I do because I too suffer from fatigue, irritability. My temps/pulse could be higher. I suspect my metabolism is not where it could be (finasteride has something to do with it)

Anyways my routine I have seen the best results with for gaining muscle is Dante's Doggcrapp program. How to Build 50 Pounds of Muscle in 12 Months | T Nation This is not a very well known plan but a lot of Mr Olympia's have used it or something similar. There are two versions, one with more volume that is intended for steroid users and one with about half the work for "natural athletes". My take on it is this: 2 day split, day 1: push day, day 2: pull day. Day A, then, has chest, quads, triceps, shoulders. Day B is back, biceps, hamstrings, traps. The trick is that you do only one working set per muscle group, but do 2 light warm up sets first. On the "working set" you give it your best effort and really bring the pain. It's a drop-down tri-set which means that you do 10 controlled reps, drop the weight down about 15 %, do 8 more reps, drop the weight, do 6 reps. After I do an intense set like this for each muscle group, I do stretching excercises which help to stretch out and expand the muscle fascia. This should engorge the muscles with blood I suppose. So for chest I would take 40 lbs dumbells and do slow, controlled flies with a couple seconds pause at the bottom, and do just one or two sets with just arm stretching. For quads I might do some very slow negative reps on the leg press with light weight and just one leg.

The trick with this program is to only do one "insane" set per muscle group and do a lot of stretching, and its a 4 day cycle instead of the typical 7 days. So its push day, pull day, cardio/abs/calves day, rest day, then repeat using different excercises. Next cycle use different excercises again, and then on the 4th cycle repeat the excercises you did the first time and you should see progress.

I stopped taking this program seriously because I don't get a NO pump anymore since peating and also I just don't care about being very muscular anymore. However this was the best muscle-building program I ever tried, especially if you are eating tons of chicken breast and whey (Please don't do that).These days I just want to maintain a nice solid relatively lean build. So if I was 190-200 lbs, 10 % bodyfat that would be just awesome.

True, it can be very stressful. I think for the least stressful workout, you have to train mainly on your creatine phosphate system, or where you feel most explosive. Then you can still go heavy, 85%+ of your 1RM and do just 3 reps. Even if you are you able to do more, but have to grind it out and you lose that explosiveness, it's best to stop the set, and keep it for the next set. 3 reps will generate the least metabolic waste products. With long rest 3-5 min between sets. The trick would be also not to do too many sets. 3 sets being ample. And maybe just to 2 exercises per muscle group for that workout. Second exercise you can maybe go a bit lighter, 6-8 reps or so. This would just be a simple workout that isn't very stressful.

Okay then what do you think about heavy squats for 2-3 reps? Too much stress on the spinal column? I liked doing squats back in college and they are great for putting on weight, but tend to make the back uncomfortable (duh).

I think I'm going to start taking it easier with the lifting and just do either a few reps with heavy weight or more reps with light weight but just not until failuire anymore, after review the info on this thread. I will probably continue to do brisk walks at 3.5 mph uphill on the treadmill, but even that may not be optimal for respiration. I need to burn the calories though, oh well.