How to decrease systemic serotonin induced by weightlifting?

[Sapien]

Young male seeking to build muscle not only for aesthetic purposes but also it’s ability to increase metabolism :)

After a hard, likley “catabolic” workout (from the eccentric stuff), is there a way to lower serotonin that is released in the blood stream?

Peat article- Tryptophan, Serotonin and aging

“The fatigue produced by “over-training” is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function”

An increase of serotonin/ inflamitory amino acids in the blood stream has all sorts of negative effects, can anything be done to lower blood serotonin/ mitigate these concerns?

I assume a serotonin antagonist wouldn’t do anything to lower systemic serotonin, just block its effects on the brain; can anything be done in the bloodstream?

Sure, I could just do concentric work and avoid muscle protein breakdown altogether, however to my knowledge the muscle damage induced by eccentric training leads to better/ quicker results.

 

[xeliex]

Managing the eccentric is probably the way to go. Damage only to the point that you know you can handle with glycine / collagen, rest.

It might be hard to retrieve, but there is a video out there discussing that muscular activity, outside of damage works as a binder of systemic serotonin.

 

[Hans]

Young male seeking to build muscle not only for aesthetic purposes but also it’s ability to increase metabolism :)

After a hard, likley “catabolic” workout (from the eccentric stuff), is there a way to lower serotonin that is released in the blood stream?

Peat article- Tryptophan, Serotonin and aging

“The fatigue produced by “over-training” is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function”

An increase of serotonin/ inflamitory amino acids in the blood stream has all sorts of negative effects, can anything be done to lower blood serotonin/ mitigate these concerns?

I assume a serotonin antagonist wouldn’t do anything to lower systemic serotonin, just block its effects on the brain; can anything be done in the bloodstream?

Sure, I could just do concentric work and avoid muscle protein breakdown altogether, however to my knowledge the muscle damage induced by eccentric training leads to better/ quicker results.

Best ways to reduce exercise-induced serotonin and optimize Carbon Dioxide Production » TESTONATION

Most of us have that drive to push ourselves hard each workout. We try to go “all out” each workout.We have to demolish the PRs of the previous workouts, right? And so we do everything possible to squeeze every bit out of our training. But is this the right thing to do?It sure feels like ...

men-elite.com

A couple of good ones are:

• Caffeine inhibits the exercise-induced elevation in tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) expression (R).
• Red ginseng acts the same as caffeine (R, R).
• Colostrum does the same (R).
• Shi Chang Pu (R).
• Vitamin B1. A deficiency in thiamine also increases serotonin synthesis and decreases its uptake, resulting in a stronger action of serotonin, which antagonizes dopamine further (R). Increased intake of thiamine increases serotonin disposal and inhibits dopamine reuptake, thus resulting in a stronger action of dopamine.
• Salt/sodium bicarbonate. The serotonin re-uptake protein, SERT, is sodium-dependent.

 

[Sapien]

Best ways to reduce exercise-induced serotonin and optimize Carbon Dioxide Production » TESTONATION

Most of us have that drive to push ourselves hard each workout. We try to go “all out” each workout.We have to demolish the PRs of the previous workouts, right? And so we do everything possible to squeeze every bit out of our training. But is this the right thing to do?It sure feels like ...

men-elite.com

A couple of good ones are:

• Caffeine inhibits the exercise-induced elevation in tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) expression (R).
• Red ginseng acts the same as caffeine (R, R).
• Colostrum does the same (R).
• Shi Chang Pu (R).
• Vitamin B1. A deficiency in thiamine also increases serotonin synthesis and decreases its uptake, resulting in a stronger action of serotonin, which antagonizes dopamine further (R). Increased intake of thiamine increases serotonin disposal and inhibits dopamine reuptake, thus resulting in a stronger action of dopamine.
• Salt/sodium bicarbonate. The serotonin re-uptake protein, SERT, is sodium-dependent.

Wow thanks Hans!

I have been taking baking soda before/after lifts for the lactic acid, good to know it helps with serotonin too!

 

[Sapien]

works as a binder of systemic serotonin.

Interesting! What type of exercise in particular? Concentric contractions? Stretching? Or just aerobic activity

 

[theordinarydude]

How much sodium bicarbonate is one supposed to take?

 

[Hans]

How much sodium bicarbonate is one supposed to take?

I take 1 tsp and that has strong effects for me.

 

[Sapien]

I take 1 tsp and that has strong effects for me.

Hans your video on Baking soda for training The forgotten performance enhancing supplement is amazing! Such a good explanation / review of the literature. Keep up the great content man

 

[Hans]

Hans your video on Baking soda for training The forgotten performance enhancing supplement is amazing! Such a good explanation / review of the literature. Keep up the great content man

Thanks man. Glad it was helpful.

 

[Gûs80]

Young male seeking to build muscle not only for aesthetic purposes but also it’s ability to increase metabolism :)

After a hard, likley “catabolic” workout (from the eccentric stuff), is there a way to lower serotonin that is released in the blood stream?

Peat article- Tryptophan, Serotonin and aging

“The fatigue produced by “over-training” is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function”

An increase of serotonin/ inflamitory amino acids in the blood stream has all sorts of negative effects, can anything be done to lower blood serotonin/ mitigate these concerns?

I assume a serotonin antagonist wouldn’t do anything to lower systemic serotonin, just block its effects on the brain; can anything be done in the bloodstream?

Sure, I could just do concentric work and avoid muscle protein breakdown altogether, however to my knowledge the muscle damage induced by eccentric training leads to better/ quicker results.

Apparently LISS cardio, something Dr Ray Peat favors, can contribute heavily to lowering cortisol. I myself find it difficult to do light cardio in the morning, as I experience a marked decrease in morning cortisol. I prefer to do it at the end of the day and post-workout, precisely to reduce the negative impact of cortisol on the muscles and to help you sleep.

In women, it has already been proven that this type of cardio decreases estradiol. As Dr Ray Peat shows us, cortisol, estrogen and serotonin are all linked.

I believe that for these reasons, bodybuilders are in the habit of doing post-workout cardio, as the decrease in cortisol is also the main way in which anabolic steroids act on muscle hypertrophy, preventing the catabolism of the cortisol family.

In addition to being very pleasant just walking your dog, it is the type of exercise that most mobilizes subcutaneous fat.

Avoiding sleep restriction is also extremely important, as science recognizes sleep restriction as a treatment for chronic depressives, as it suddenly elevates serotonin. I have been a sleep restrictor for over 20 years and have had serotonin syndrome several times, even with moderate doses of trt (since e2 acts as a Monoamine Oxidase). Since meeting Peat I've been using antihistamines to sleep, doing well with Dramamine, which completely solved my sleep problems.

 

[Validus]

Apparently LISS cardio, something Dr Ray Peat favors, can contribute heavily to lowering cortisol. I myself find it difficult to do light cardio in the morning, as I experience a marked decrease in morning cortisol. I prefer to do it at the end of the day and post-workout, precisely to reduce the negative impact of cortisol on the muscles and to help you sleep.

In women, it has already been proven that this type of cardio decreases estradiol. As Dr Ray Peat shows us, cortisol, estrogen and serotonin are all linked.

I believe that for these reasons, bodybuilders are in the habit of doing post-workout cardio, as the decrease in cortisol is also the main way in which anabolic steroids act on muscle hypertrophy, preventing the catabolism of the cortisol family.

In addition to being very pleasant just walking your dog, it is the type of exercise that most mobilizes subcutaneous fat.

Avoiding sleep restriction is also extremely important, as science recognizes sleep restriction as a treatment for chronic depressives, as it suddenly elevates serotonin. I have been a sleep restrictor for over 20 years and have had serotonin syndrome several times, even with moderate doses of trt (since e2 acts as a Monoamine Oxidase). Since meeting Peat I've been using antihistamines to sleep, doing well with Dramamine, which completely solved my sleep problems.

You and I sound similar in that we both have issues with sleep and am on moderate TRT doses. I've used benadryl for years to aid my sleep and have never considered dramamine. How does it compare to benadryl if you've tried it? What doses of dramamine to you take for sleep? Benadryl only provides moderate support for my sleep.

 

[Gûs80]

Here in Brazil they don't sell benadryl, so I can't compare, but I found this:

Post in thread 'Gravol Dimenhydrinate Thoughts' Gravol Dimenhydrinate Thoughts

After 7 years of failure on trt, I decided to try Nandrolone and I'm loving it. Since it doesn't convert to e2, my estrogen levels dropped considerably and all the brain fog and anxiety that trt caused me disappeared. I use 4 nandrolone : 1 testosterone, ex: 200mg of nandrolone : 50mg of testosterone.

I had immediate improvement in insulin sensitivity, as nandrolone increases glucose disposal in humans.

 

[Gûs80]

Você e eu soamos parecidos porque ambos temos problemas para dormir e estamos tomando doses moderadas de TRT. Eu usei benadryl por anos para ajudar meu sono e nunca considerei o dramamine. Como ele se compara ao benadryl se você já experimentou? Que doses de dramamine você toma para dormir? Benadryl fornece apenas suporte moderado para o meu sono.

Reduced activity of monoamine oxidase in the rat brain following repeated nandrolone decanoate administration - PubMed

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are known as doping agents within sports and body-building, but are currently also abused by other groups in society in order to promote increased courage and aggression. We previously showed that 14 days of daily intramuscular injections of the AAS nandrolone...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Gûs80]

You and I sound similar in that we both have issues with sleep and am on moderate TRT doses. I've used benadryl for years to aid my sleep and have never considered dramamine. How does it compare to benadryl if you've tried it? What doses of dramamine to you take for sleep? Benadryl only provides moderate support for my sleep.

Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men - PubMed

The effect of exogenous androgens on glucose metabolism is controversial. This study was designed to clarify the impact of testosterone enanthate (TE), an aromatizable androgen, and nandrolone decanoate (ND), a nonaromatizable androgen, on glucose disposal. Eleven healthy men were enrolled in a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Gûs80]

You and I sound similar in that we both have issues with sleep and am on moderate TRT doses. I've used benadryl for years to aid my sleep and have never considered dramamine. How does it compare to benadryl if you've tried it? What doses of dramamine to you take for sleep? Benadryl only provides moderate support for my sleep.

50mg of dramamine. It gives me a smooth sleep, without making me groggy the next day, like cyproheptadine, ketotifen or polaramine.

 

[Validus]

Here in Brazil they don't sell benadryl, so I can't compare, but I found this:

Post in thread 'Gravol Dimenhydrinate Thoughts' Gravol Dimenhydrinate Thoughts

After 7 years of failure on trt, I decided to try Nandrolone and I'm loving it. Since it doesn't convert to e2, my estrogen levels dropped considerably and all the brain fog and anxiety that trt caused me disappeared. I use 4 nandrolone : 1 testosterone, ex: 200mg of nandrolone : 50mg of testosterone.

I had immediate improvement in insulin sensitivity, as nandrolone increases glucose disposal in humans.

Interesting. Nandrolone/deca hurt my mood, but I didnt play around with a very low dose to test. I think at the time I was using 150 mg nandrolone and 200 mg of test per week.

Ironically, I am experimenting with relatively high doses of materson and lower T doses (600 mg masteron per week and 100 mg of testosterone per week) and feel much calmer, assumedly because masteron is a DHT derivative.

 

[Validus]

50mg of dramamine. It gives me a smooth sleep, without making me groggy the next day, like cyproheptadine, ketotifen or polaramine.

Thanks man. I think I'll give this a shot.

 

[Gûs80]

Interesting. Nandrolone/deca hurt my mood, but I didnt play around with a very low dose to test. I think at the time I was using 150 mg nandrolone and 200 mg of test per week.

Ironically, I am experimenting with relatively high doses of materson and lower T doses (600 mg masteron per week and 100 mg of testosterone per week) and feel much calmer, assumedly because masteron is a DHT derivative.

When I used test doses in ratios greater than 1/4 of nandrolone, I noticed a lot more anxiety, but I'm an e2 sensitive guy, probably a slow metabolizer.

With higher nandrolone everything is solved for me, including sleep improves a lot, since less e2 = less serotonin and therefore less anxiety.

On trt forums many guys who use more testo than nandrolone develop deca ****. When they increase the proportion of deca, the problems resolve themselves.

I've already tested masteron, but it causes me more anxiety. Biological individuality is a crazy thing.

 

[Validus]

When I used test doses in ratios greater than 1/4 of nandrolone, I noticed a lot more anxiety, but I'm an e2 sensitive guy, probably a slow metabolizer.

With higher nandrolone everything is solved for me, including sleep improves a lot, since less e2 = less serotonin and therefore less anxiety.

On trt forums many guys who use more testo than nandrolone develop deca ****. When they increase the proportion of deca, the problems resolve themselves.

I've already tested masteron, but it causes me more anxiety. Biological individuality is a crazy thing.

This is great info and something I may try again, thanks! I believe I may be e2 sensitive too.

So you take 50 mg of test and 200 mg of nandrolone per week? I did that nandrolone made me feel a bit unmotivated (I thought likely because it can increase prolactin) and yet increased my heart rate and blood pressure, but again, I actually noticed the same thing with masteron until I lowered my test dose to 100 mg/week, actually using test propionate 15 mg every day now and 200 mg of masteron mon, wed & fri.

 

[Brandin]

Young male seeking to build muscle not only for aesthetic purposes but also it’s ability to increase metabolism :)

After a hard, likley “catabolic” workout (from the eccentric stuff), is there a way to lower serotonin that is released in the blood stream?

Peat article- Tryptophan, Serotonin and aging

“The fatigue produced by “over-training” is probably produced by a tryptophan and serotonin overload, resulting from catabolism of muscle proteins and stress-induced increases in serotonin. Muscle catabolism also releases a large amount of cysteine, and cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan suppress thyroid function”

An increase of serotonin/ inflamitory amino acids in the blood stream has all sorts of negative effects, can anything be done to lower blood serotonin/ mitigate these concerns?

I assume a serotonin antagonist wouldn’t do anything to lower systemic serotonin, just block its effects on the brain; can anything be done in the bloodstream?

Sure, I could just do concentric work and avoid muscle protein breakdown altogether, however to my knowledge the muscle damage induced by eccentric training leads to better/ quicker results.

Taking alot of aspirin and k2 definitely helps me. Also extreme amount of sugar and b vitamins. I have done experiments with 1 kg of sugar, extreme amounts of milk, eggs, coffee, b-vitamins, asprin, k2 and a little bit of calcium carbonate+magnesium carbonate. Now I did also do bcaa 10g+10g glycine and 10g tyrosine in my milk 2x per day. This worked extremely well and I literally got leaner, and bigger, veinier and slept like a baby. Now even my cardio improved and I never train cardio. Clearly this diet atleast for me offsets the serotonergic and stressfull hypoxic effects of training. I got in blatantly the best health of my life and barely felt like I needed to sleep eventhough I could sleep whenever I wanted if I felt like it. Had literally close to zero anxiety.

Now one thing to point out is that I drank milk, and honey, ate oysters, took 1000mg b3, b vitamin complex, aspirin 8 per day, 20mg vit k2, vitamin e, and had collagen protein for a year before I started doing the big sugar experiments. It was a pretty obvious slow increase in progress and health for the first year and the insulin sensitivity slowly increased alot. Now I tryed eating alot of sugar for a short period after my first ever bulk when I wasnt in to peat. My bulk had consisted of alot of peanut butter and as soon as I added sugar I got fat (probably because I just had horrible insulin sensitivity from the pufa). Hope this helps man. I will try to answer if you have any question but I am super busy rn so it might take awhile bro. Gl on your journey :)