Pre-workout Stack?

[faxmulder]

Hi folks,

Premise: I’m quite sensitive to caffeine, it affects my sleep if taken too late in the afternoon.
For this reason, in these months I’ve started taking an espresso only at breakfast. Previously I was doing 1 breakfast + 1 lunch.

So far so good, but I have yet to find a good caffeine replacement for post-lunch tiredness... I feel I’m missing something to keep going through all the tasks at work and then at home in the evening.

That being said, I’m starting to working out again and I’m trying to assembly a pre-workout stack. The fact is that I can’t workout in the morning, thus I’ll go to the gym at around 6pm.

Do you think that **TeaCrine** could work? Considering its long half-life, I was thinking about taking it after lunch at about 1:30/2pm in order to be ready when I go to the gym. Would it affect my sleep?

**The rest of my pre-workout stack would be: cordyceps, agmatine, forskolin, taurine.** I’m considering throwing in also an adaptogen, such Rhodiola or PanaMAX or eleuthero, and maybe citrulline in the future.

The other supps I’m taking are: multivitamin, fish oil, Vit D, magnesium malate, grape seed extract, shilajit and boron (cycles).

Thanks!

 

[Hans]

Hi folks,

Premise: I’m quite sensitive to caffeine, it affects my sleep if taken too late in the afternoon.
For this reason, in these months I’ve started taking an espresso only at breakfast. Previously I was doing 1 breakfast + 1 lunch.

So far so good, but I have yet to find a good caffeine replacement for post-lunch tiredness... I feel I’m missing something to keep going through all the tasks at work and then at home in the evening.

That being said, I’m starting to working out again and I’m trying to assembly a pre-workout stack. The fact is that I can’t workout in the morning, thus I’ll go to the gym at around 6pm.

Do you think that **TeaCrine** could work? Considering its long half-life, I was thinking about taking it after lunch at about 1:30/2pm in order to be ready when I go to the gym. Would it affect my sleep?

**The rest of my pre-workout stack would be: cordyceps, agmatine, forskolin, taurine.** I’m considering throwing in also an adaptogen, such Rhodiola or PanaMAX or eleuthero, and maybe citrulline in the future.

The other supps I’m taking are: multivitamin, fish oil, Vit D, magnesium malate, grape seed extract, shilajit and boron (cycles).

Thanks!

As a side note, no pre-workout is needed/necessary or highly beneficial for enhancing muscle mass.
As for TeaCrine:
The effects of a caffeine-like supplement, TeaCrine®, on muscular strength, endurance and power performance in resistance-trained men. - PubMed - NCBI
"Neither TEA300, CAFF300, COMBO, or PLA (when consumed 90 min pre-exercise) improved muscular strength, power, or endurance performance in resistance-trained men. Only CAFF300 improved measures of focus, energy, and motivation to exercise."
Pretty disappointing.

Cordyceps can work nicely for energy, but it might only be subtle. Agmatine might help a little with endurance. Forskolin might help a little focus, but will do nothing for gaining anything. Taurine the same, but it can help with speeding up recovery.

I should ask, what is your goal with the pre-workout? To enhance your focus and desire to train? To enhance muscle endurance or to build more mass and strength?
Adding an adaptogen can help, but only ashwagandha has been proven to have a more than subtle effect on enhancing muscle mass and strength.
A combination of cordyceps and Rodiola crenulata was slightly effective at enhancing muscle mass.

Rhodiola/Cordyceps-Based Herbal Supplement Promotes Endurance Training-Improved Body Composition But Not Oxidative Stress and Metabolic Biomarkers: A Preliminary Randomized Controlled Study
"In this preliminary investigation, we demonstrated that an 8-week RC supplementation (20 mg/kg/day) faintly enhanced endurance training-induced positive adaptations in body composition in young sedentary individuals, whereas the blood lipid profile and systemic oxidative stress states were not altered after such intervention." It wasn't a perfect study, but nevertheless.

If it was me, I'd just keep it simple:

• High dose vitamin B1 combined with lower doses of the other B-vitamins
• Sodium bicarbonate (disgusting I know) or 5g beta-alanine + 2g x3 times daily (or 6g at once) taurine instead of the SB
• 5 Creatine post-workout
• 200-400mg magnesium post-workout
• 10g+ glycine throughout the day or 30-50g collagen.

And then the rest just eating a healthy diet consisting of fruits, cocoa, red meat, dairy (jut because I do good on it) and tubers.

I've noticed that it's nice to use supplements but after a while I just want to get back to the basics. After the initial excitement of using supplements, you realize it's not that cool and it didn't even help all that much, if at all.

 

[Inaut]

@Hans didnt you have a pre workout stack with MB, niacinamide, b1 and caffeine (with sugar and bicarbonate)?? I’ve been using it and like it a lot

 

[Hans]

@Hans didnt you have a pre workout stack with MB, niacinamide, b1 and caffeine (with sugar and bicarbonate)?? I’ve been using it and like it a lot

Sweet man. Yes indeed I have. The sodium bicarb works really great but it's so awful that I rarely take it anymore.
Maybe I should just punish myself and start using it again lol.

 

[milkboi]

Please man, how do you still take FISH OIL when you are registered on this forum?

 

[Waynish]

Sweet man. Yes indeed I have. The sodium bicarb works really great but it's so awful that I rarely take it anymore.
Maybe I should just punish myself and start using it again lol.

What's awful about sodium bicarbonate? Pretty pleasant when dissolved in some water. If you make it too potent: sure, but why the need for that?

 

[Hans]

What's awful about sodium bicarbonate? Pretty pleasant when dissolved in some water. If you make it too potent: sure, but why the need for that?

It just tastes awful to me. If it's 1tsp or 1 tbsp, it still tastes bad. I mask it with sugar which helps, but I still have to down it quick.
Why the need for sodium bicarb, or why the high amount?
It's to increase CO2 and boost my endurance. 1tsp seem to have a good effect, but I was experimenting with 1tbsp as the studies testing bicarb use several tbsps per day.

 

[Waynish]

It just tastes awful to me. If it's 1tsp or 1 tbsp, it still tastes bad. I mask it with sugar which helps, but I still have to down it quick.
Why the need for sodium bicarb, or why the high amount?
It's to increase CO2 and boost my endurance. 1tsp seem to have a good effect, but I was experimenting with 1tbsp as the studies testing bicarb use several tbsps per day.

Would be good to collect a bunch of taste test heuristics. I don't take nearly that much at once... Maybe a half teaspoon in a liter of (mag bicarb) water. I was taking it mostly for the alkalizing effects, so perhaps I don't get performance benefits at this quantity.

 

[Aaron]

It's already been said, but taurine/beta alanine/creatine have a low risk profile and are effective. I would be hesitant to add more refined supplements into the diet. I've learned from my mistakes and keep it simple now. Raw cacao powder also provides a nice boost, and turmeric helps manage inflammation. Gelatin obviously useful for the amino acid profile. I am a natty bodybuilder and eating an overall very hearty and nutritious diet, with some acute phase supplementation, is all I need. Staying very healthy and vital seems key. A lot of over-supplementing bodybuilders start looking worse for wear over time and may even lose gains long term, even if they initially made their gains faster. Much easier to prevent damage than to reverse it.

 

[Runenight201]

I find apple juice to be very effective.

 

[faxmulder]

As a side note, no pre-workout is needed/necessary or highly beneficial for enhancing muscle mass.
As for TeaCrine:
The effects of a caffeine-like supplement, TeaCrine®, on muscular strength, endurance and power performance in resistance-trained men. - PubMed - NCBI
"Neither TEA300, CAFF300, COMBO, or PLA (when consumed 90 min pre-exercise) improved muscular strength, power, or endurance performance in resistance-trained men. Only CAFF300 improved measures of focus, energy, and motivation to exercise."
Pretty disappointing.

Cordyceps can work nicely for energy, but it might only be subtle. Agmatine might help a little with endurance. Forskolin might help a little focus, but will do nothing for gaining anything. Taurine the same, but it can help with speeding up recovery.

I should ask, what is your goal with the pre-workout? To enhance your focus and desire to train? To enhance muscle endurance or to build more mass and strength?
Adding an adaptogen can help, but only ashwagandha has been proven to have a more than subtle effect on enhancing muscle mass and strength.
A combination of cordyceps and Rodiola crenulata was slightly effective at enhancing muscle mass.

Rhodiola/Cordyceps-Based Herbal Supplement Promotes Endurance Training-Improved Body Composition But Not Oxidative Stress and Metabolic Biomarkers: A Preliminary Randomized Controlled Study
"In this preliminary investigation, we demonstrated that an 8-week RC supplementation (20 mg/kg/day) faintly enhanced endurance training-induced positive adaptations in body composition in young sedentary individuals, whereas the blood lipid profile and systemic oxidative stress states were not altered after such intervention." It wasn't a perfect study, but nevertheless.

If it was me, I'd just keep it simple:

• High dose vitamin B1 combined with lower doses of the other B-vitamins
• Sodium bicarbonate (disgusting I know) or 5g beta-alanine + 2g x3 times daily (or 6g at once) taurine instead of the SB
• 5 Creatine post-workout
• 200-400mg magnesium post-workout
• 10g+ glycine throughout the day or 30-50g collagen.

And then the rest just eating a healthy diet consisting of fruits, cocoa, red meat, dairy (jut because I do good on it) and tubers.

I've noticed that it's nice to use supplements but after a while I just want to get back to the basics. After the initial excitement of using supplements, you realize it's not that cool and it didn't even help all that much, if at all.

thanks mate.

• The goal of pre-workout is basically to build more mass and strength - do you think that Alpha GPC would help with that?
• Regarding to caffeine substitute, maybe dynamine/methylliberine would be better than teacrine?
• speaking about your pre-workout suggestion, when you say "high dose vitamin B1", could subultiamine be a good form? I've seen good reviews, but I'd be also concercened about its impact on kidneys (and also pee smell lol)
• what could help specifically with DOMS, besides magnesium, taurine and creatine? I've seen that glucosamine and curcumin could help - do you have any experience with these?

 

[Hans]

I find apple juice to be very effective.

I've been drinking lots of apple juice lately. Love it as a post-workout. It definitely energizes me.

thanks mate.

• The goal of pre-workout is basically to build more mass and strength - do you think that Alpha GPC would help with that?
• Regarding to caffeine substitute, maybe dynamine/methylliberine would be better than teacrine?
• speaking about your pre-workout suggestion, when you say "high dose vitamin B1", could subultiamine be a good form? I've seen good reviews, but I'd be also concercened about its impact on kidneys (and also pee smell lol)
• what could help specifically with DOMS, besides magnesium, taurine and creatine? I've seen that glucosamine and curcumin could help - do you have any experience with these?

No pre-workout will actually help with strength and size except creatine. All the other has a minor effect and it mostly improves endurance.
I find sodium bicarb to be the most effect for that anyway and it's cheap.

Alpha-GPC will not aid in building muscle or strength no.

Methylliberine seem good, but I have no experience with it so can't comment.

When it comes to vit B1, the regular form works just as well, but you might need bigger doses initially for buildup to happen. The only other thiamine I would use is allithiamine, but it's expensive. You can definitely try out the sulbutiamine if you like, I just don't think it's superior to regular thiamine HCL.

For DOMS I'd do magnesium baths, contrast therapy, EMS and maybe a few supplements. I did an article on it not too long ago:
Get rid of muscle pains with these effective methods, supplements & strategies » MenElite

 

[Runenight201]

I've been drinking lots of apple juice lately. Love it as a post-workout. It definitely energizes me.


No pre-workout will actually help with strength and size except creatine. All the other has a minor effect and it mostly improves endurance.
I find sodium bicarb to be the most effect for that anyway and it's cheap.

Alpha-GPC will not aid in building muscle or strength no.

Methylliberine seem good, but I have no experience with it so can't comment.

When it comes to vit B1, the regular form works just as well, but you might need bigger doses initially for buildup to happen. The only other thiamine I would use is allithiamine, but it's expensive. You can definitely try out the sulbutiamine if you like, I just don't think it's superior to regular thiamine HCL.

For DOMS I'd do magnesium baths, contrast therapy, EMS and maybe a few supplements. I did an article on it not too long ago:
Get rid of muscle pains with these effective methods, supplements & strategies » MenElite

Im starting to think that the need to use a Pre workout already signals that the individual probably isn’t in the right state to exercise. I know there’s a ton of studies on the various effects of caffeine and other individual substances on performance, but for the average individual, I question whether any of that is really necessary if they’re just trying to live an energetic and healthy life.

My brother plays professional soccer, and he told me that as far as he knows not a single person on his team takes any type of pre-workout. I was very shocked, especially having been surrounded by so much gym culture, but it made me realize that the best get there through years of hard work and on point nutrition, the rest isn’t really necessary.

 

[Runenight201]

I've been drinking lots of apple juice lately. Love it as a post-workout. It definitely energizes me.


No pre-workout will actually help with strength and size except creatine. All the other has a minor effect and it mostly improves endurance.
I find sodium bicarb to be the most effect for that anyway and it's cheap.

Alpha-GPC will not aid in building muscle or strength no.

Methylliberine seem good, but I have no experience with it so can't comment.

When it comes to vit B1, the regular form works just as well, but you might need bigger doses initially for buildup to happen. The only other thiamine I would use is allithiamine, but it's expensive. You can definitely try out the sulbutiamine if you like, I just don't think it's superior to regular thiamine HCL.

For DOMS I'd do magnesium baths, contrast therapy, EMS and maybe a few supplements. I did an article on it not too long ago:
Get rid of muscle pains with these effective methods, supplements & strategies » MenElite

Im starting to think that the need to use a Pre workout already signals that the individual probably isn’t in the right state to exercise. I know there’s a ton of studies on the various effects of caffeine and other individual substances on performance, but for the average individual, I question whether any of that is really necessary if they’re just trying to live an energetic and healthy life.

My brother plays professional soccer, and he told me that as far as he knows not a single person on his team takes any type of pre-workout. I was very shocked, especially having been surrounded by so much gym culture, but it made me realize that the best get there through years of hard work and on point nutrition, the rest isn’t really necessary.

 

[Hans]

Im starting to think that the need to use a Pre workout already signals that the individual probably isn’t in the right state to exercise. I know there’s a ton of studies on the various effects of caffeine and other individual substances on performance, but for the average individual, I question whether any of that is really necessary if they’re just trying to live an energetic and healthy life.

My brother plays professional soccer, and he told me that as far as he knows not a single person on his team takes any type of pre-workout. I was very shocked, especially having been surrounded by so much gym culture, but it made me realize that the best get there through years of hard work and on point nutrition, the rest isn’t really necessary.

Yeah definitely agree.
When in a high energy state supplementation feels unnecessary. But the bicarb gives a nice boost in endurance lol.

I think most people want to try all kinds of supplements because it's been over-advertised. No offense to anyone, I used to think that way as well. If you want to start lifting weights you got to get a pre-workout and a post-workout, or at least that was my thinking when I started out

 

[Jib]

Im starting to think that the need to use a Pre workout already signals that the individual probably isn’t in the right state to exercise. I know there’s a ton of studies on the various effects of caffeine and other individual substances on performance, but for the average individual, I question whether any of that is really necessary if they’re just trying to live an energetic and healthy life.

My brother plays professional soccer, and he told me that as far as he knows not a single person on his team takes any type of pre-workout. I was very shocked, especially having been surrounded by so much gym culture, but it made me realize that the best get there through years of hard work and on point nutrition, the rest isn’t really necessary.

Agreed. It's a hard thing to accept, especially if you're hell-bent on working out.

Yeah definitely agree.
When in a high energy state supplementation feels unnecessary. But the bicarb gives a nice boost in endurance lol.

I think most people want to try all kinds of supplements because it's been over-advertised. No offense to anyone, I used to think that way as well. If you want to start lifting weights you got to get a pre-workout and a post-workout, or at least that was my thinking when I started out

Same. I no longer work out except sporadically. But I was big on the pre and post supplements when I did.

That being said, a pre-workout can be part of a 'ritual' and while not necessary for working out, can possibly provide some benefits. My thought is: you can supplement anything as a "pre-workout" as long as it has other potential benefits that have nothing to do with working out.

Creatine and glycine come to mind. A good portion of methylation goes to creatine synthesis, so for people like me with MTHFR gene mutations and less effective methylation, creatine supplementation can be very helpful; glycine is also wasted in with MTHFR mutations and extra supplementation can be especially helpful for such people. But it's arguable that even in people without that mutation, supplementation can be beneficial.

Taurine, beta-alanine, and L-citrulline can also have general benefits. I'd have to do more research to fully justify taking them on a regular basis.

Honestly, caffeine was the only major thing that made a difference for me in my workouts. I was using pills from Smarter Vitamins that had 200mg caffeine, 100mg L-theanine, in MCT oil softgels. Very nice. Not sure if the L-theanine makes a huge difference but I did notice less jitters and a more stable stimulation from the caffeine. FWIW.

 

[Hans]

Agreed. It's a hard thing to accept, especially if you're hell-bent on working out.



Same. I no longer work out except sporadically. But I was big on the pre and post supplements when I did.

That being said, a pre-workout can be part of a 'ritual' and while not necessary for working out, can possibly provide some benefits. My thought is: you can supplement anything as a "pre-workout" as long as it has other potential benefits that have nothing to do with working out.

Creatine and glycine come to mind. A good portion of methylation goes to creatine synthesis, so for people like me with MTHFR gene mutations and less effective methylation, creatine supplementation can be very helpful; glycine is also wasted in with MTHFR mutations and extra supplementation can be especially helpful for such people. But it's arguable that even in people without that mutation, supplementation can be beneficial.

Taurine, beta-alanine, and L-citrulline can also have general benefits. I'd have to do more research to fully justify taking them on a regular basis.

Honestly, caffeine was the only major thing that made a difference for me in my workouts. I was using pills from Smarter Vitamins that had 200mg caffeine, 100mg L-theanine, in MCT oil softgels. Very nice. Not sure if the L-theanine makes a huge difference but I did notice less jitters and a more stable stimulation from the caffeine. FWIW.

Good points. Yes creatine has more benefits than just hypertrophy and strength and throwing a pre-workout together can definitely act as a motivational routine in of itself.

 

[Aymen]

Sweet man. Yes indeed I have. The sodium bicarb works really great but it's so awful that I rarely take it anymore.
Maybe I should just punish myself and start using it again lol.

you can add a tsp with coffee and honey and sugar and very little milk and mix it well and 90 minutes before workout, that's what i always do and it doesn't taste bad that way.

 

[Hans]

you can add a tsp with coffee and honey and sugar and very little milk and mix it well and 90 minutes before workout, that's what i always do and it doesn't taste bad that way.

Sweet, I'm definitely going to try that next.

 

[Gawdawg]

Hi folks,

Premise: I’m quite sensitive to caffeine, it affects my sleep if taken too late in the afternoon.
For this reason, in these months I’ve started taking an espresso only at breakfast. Previously I was doing 1 breakfast + 1 lunch.

So far so good, but I have yet to find a good caffeine replacement for post-lunch tiredness... I feel I’m missing something to keep going through all the tasks at work and then at home in the evening.

That being said, I’m starting to working out again and I’m trying to assembly a pre-workout stack. The fact is that I can’t workout in the morning, thus I’ll go to the gym at around 6pm.

Do you think that **TeaCrine** could work? Considering its long half-life, I was thinking about taking it after lunch at about 1:30/2pm in order to be ready when I go to the gym. Would it affect my sleep?

**The rest of my pre-workout stack would be: cordyceps, agmatine, forskolin, taurine.** I’m considering throwing in also an adaptogen, such Rhodiola or PanaMAX or eleuthero, and maybe citrulline in the future.

The other supps I’m taking are: multivitamin, fish oil, Vit D, magnesium malate, grape seed extract, shilajit and boron (cycles).

Thanks!

Two scrambled eggs with cheese and a pint of orange juice an hour before workout. During a workout I sip 2 parts watermelon juice to one part water. Sometimes I use molecular hydrogen a couple of hours before workout.