Nabati - Search for wellness

[Nabati]

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to the forum and to Peat, having only about two weeks of experience under my belt. I discovered him through Danny Roddy, after going through some disturbing and surprising circumstances regarding my health. For two months, I took a drug called finasteride and since stopping from feeling a little off, I've experienced anxiety, chronic fatigue, very low libido, brain fog, and low body temperature (early in the day sometimes 96.5) / somewhat lower heart rate. The severity of the fatigue sometimes subsides slightly by night, as a general trend. I feel so much of my stress is due to the feeling that things will not improve. Occasionally moments of optimism open a clearing.

I've eliminated all PUFA, started adding more salt and sugar, included coconut oil over carrot salad, and have been drinking lots of milk and OJ with food (oysters, liver, and mostly quality protein). I ordered some gelatin, which I haven't eaten for years as a now former vegetarian. Beyond that I take a Vitamin D drops (2000IU) supplement because my levels are apparently really low, even by my doctor's standards.

I wanted to post because I haven't seen many people talk much about conditions like brain fog on these forums, except for a couple of threads. When people have things like brain fog, they often choose strategies like raw diets, detoxes, and chelation. Honestly I find it very confusing, but believe it's because I've become hypometabolic.

I'm hoping to get appropriate labs soon but it may take a while. I guess I'm just looking for any sort of encouragement because this has hit me like a freight train. I hope to keep this thread updated with developments.

Thanks,
James

 

[Mittir]

Re: chronic fatigue, depersonalization, etc

Welcome to the forum

Low body temperature after 1-2 hours of breakfast usually mean low
thyroid function. Low thyroid people usually have problem with excess fluid.
You may want to experiment with low fluid diet. You can use cheese to replace
milk. Pectin in OJ can be a gut irritant. RP recommends strained orange juice
from sweet ripe fruits. Under ripe fruits are often problematic.
Here is a list of safe fruits.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=588
It is very important to avoid food that is hard to digest.
Starch and soluble fiber can feed bad bacteria.
Undiigested gelatin also feeds bad bacteria.
RP puts a lot emphasis on high intake of alkaline minerals
: calcium, potassium, sodium and potassium.
You can use cronometer.com to track your vitamins and mineral intake.
You also want to maintain a good ratio of calcium to phosphorus.
Bag breathing 1-2 minutes few times a day can be very beneficial.
Red light therapy can quickly improve health.
General dietary guideline
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20
Red light Therapy
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=187

 

[goofy]

Re: chronic fatigue, depersonalization, etc

I have above range DHT and im suffering depersonalization due shitty looks thanks to hairloss, chronic fatigue, brain fog and cold intolerance too. It seems you are ****88 no matter what with hairloss. Lose your hair = feel like ***t. Take propecia = feel like ***t (i've never tried finasteride tho, im going to try it in topical form plus minoxidil and nizoral).

Oh, my scalp itches all day. I would like some help for this. I've heard this may be due the high DHT itself combined with AGA genes, so it seems I have to lower it.

 

[Nabati]

Re: chronic fatigue, depersonalization, etc

Thanks for the responses; I know I didn't give much to work with and I just needed a moment of reassurance really. I don't have much else to report but I just wanted to say thanks.

One question I've had is whether pregnenolone can successfully treat brain fog. Some people seem to think that can be the case, especially coming off this drug I was taking. Has anyone had a positive experience like that after taking pregnenolone?
--

To goofy: My absolute recommendation is to never take finasteride, especially in a state of anxiety or paranoia about your health. You were wiser than me to stay away from it despite your anxieties. I wouldn't even take the topical form because if it's effective it will probably have the same overall effect to your system. You have to try a combination of solutions first and forget about all the insane hype that surrounds the hair loss world. A few months ago I spent time on the hair loss forums seeing the type of culture and forms of indoctrination they put people through. To many of them, the very idea of baldness and losing hair is the equivalent of death - and reading their views, I felt that must be true too. Not only is that not a complete picture of the possibilities for happiness in this world, but in their manic quest they don't even consider ways of preventing hair loss through diet, natural supplements, and other methods. After all, with all the machismo and bravado, no one will ever admit someone can actually get hurt through the use of prescription drugs. They allow the pharmaceutical companies to set the discourse - and that's why they have such fear of themselves and hair loss. What they honestly should be doing is to be addressing the stigma against baldness and creating a new dialogue, much like women's movements have been recently by correcting distorted social standards of the female body. Instead there is just babbling.

I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through though as it parallels my situation in many ways. My last suggestion is to read something about trauma, stress, or the psychology behind these belief systems. And put some stock into what people are saying on this site. That's where I am right now.

 

[Nabati]

Re: chronic fatigue, depersonalization, etc

---

 

[Nabati]

I wanted to make an update because I've been struggling a lot recently. It's true I'm really only in the beginnings of this, but I have been making my attempts at eating in my own Peat way for the past three months. I've already noticed many things:

- Temperatures after breakfast are always low. It tends to fluctuate throughout the day, sometimes ending up in the mid-98s in the evening.
- My heart rate is always quite high. It's about 80-85 bpm pretty regularly.
- Coffee wipes me out terribly. It was wiping me out so badly (one or two cups) that I would end up in bed, wondering whether I was losing control of my body. Coconut oil generally does the same, although it did tend to warm me up. This also echoes sladerunner69's experience when he started.
- Carrots and carbonated water tend to help with digestion and settle the stomach. Same goes for eggshell calcium.
- My hands, maybe even face, have turned a bit orange from the carrots.
- If I drink too much juice or coffee, I sometimes feel like drinking water after.
- I have a lot of trouble eating eggs. This has seemingly gotten worse over time, and my mom also has similar problems with them. After one or two bits I experience nausea, which is sometimes bypass by slowly eating it with orange juice.
- Appetite is something I need to work on. Oftentimes, even before becoming ill, I had trouble keeping an appetite and often ate more for health than for pleasure. I've always been thin and lean (135 lbs, 5'11").
- This week I started dosing t3, albeit inconsistently, but can't really tell what's happening. Since I started taking it, digestion and appetite seems to have gotten worse - but this may be misleading. What I'm going to try is 1/6th of a tablet, twice a day with food.
- Taking Nutrisorb A dermally, I really can't tell if it's absorbing or doing anything. I usually drop one or two drops on my wrists and lightly rub them together.
- For dinner, I'm generally having things like seafood, lamb, potatoes, rice, carrots, onions, peppers, and mushrooms. I generally feel somewhat limited, not in terms of flavors, but in terms of creating variety.
- Consuming less tap water, or just eating differently, may have permanently cleared my sinuses (I had what seemed to be a permanent sinus infection for years).

I also got thyroid labs:
TSH - 1.39
Free t4 - 1.6 ng/dL
Free T3 - 2.9 pg/mL

I've been to a couple thyroid specialists but when they see the labs versus the symptoms, it's like cognitive dissonance to them.

If anyone has any thoughts or advice, it would be very appreciated. I also attached a sample day of cronometer from last month.

warmly,
Nabati

 

[tara]

- Appetite is something I need to work on. Oftentimes, even before becoming ill, I had trouble keeping an appetite and often ate more for health than for pleasure. I've always been thin and lean (135 lbs, 5'11").
- This week I started dosing t3, albeit inconsistently, but can't really tell what's happening. Since I started taking it, digestion and appetite seems to have gotten worse - but this may be misleading. What I'm going to try is 1/6th of a tablet, twice a day with food.

This looks key to me. As you say, you are tall and very thin, and not eating much. This could well have reduced your thyroid function in itself. If you supplement thyroid or coffee or other metabolism enhancing substances, there may not be enough fuel to support it, which can cause extra stress.
What do you like to eat? Could you eat a bigger breakfast? Maybe add more butter to your potatoes and increase your chocolate ration? Do dried fruit like dates agree with you?

I used to flake out from hunger, and my brain is definitely not as sharp if I go too long without food. I do better if I eat more in morning - noon. I generally don't drive on an empty stomach. I carry dried fruit, chocolate, and spiked orange juice for between meal snacks when I'm out and about and notice I'm getting stressed or dull-headed. Can't say I've got this all sorted out for myself yet.

If you can't get yourself to eat more with a persistent effort, one of the effects of cyproheptadine (Haidut has thread on various things it does) is to increase appetite. I've not used it myself, and I don't know whether it would be a good idea for you, but you could investigate it if you don't make headway without.

I rinse my grated carrots since noticing yellowed callouses.
If you are really thirsty, and you are not peeing clear, I think it's probably OK to drink more. With calories in it if you can.

 

[j.]

I think tara's encouragement to eat beyond what one naturally wants reached the nonsensical point. That approach might be useful to one or two people, but as a blanket advice to everyone doesn't make sense. Just thought I'd voice a different view.

Focus on nutrients. Get all your vitamins, high intake of minerals, no polyunsaturated fats, try to get 80 grams of protein, while eating your proteins with sugars. Other than that, eat as much as you feel like, preferably nutrient dense foods such as eggs, milk, oj, liver once a week.

 

[tara]

I don't think this applies to everyone, and I don''t advise everyone to eat more.

I apply it when people ask for advice, appear to be eating well under normal amounts, and say they are suffering from things that are normal consequences of undereating, like the symptoms of reduced metabolism.
This does not seem non-sensical to me, though I could be wrong, and other factors are also likely to be important.

If eating what one naturally wants results in good health, that's great. Doesn't appear to be the case here.

I am not a medical practitioner, and don't have as much experience as some people on here. We all make suggestions about what we see that looks most relevant to us.

Not surprisingly, a number of people on a forum that focusses on improving metababolism appear to be doing something that usually results in reduced metabolism: undereating, and appear to have reduced metabolism. It may not always causal, but it's worth considering as a candidate.

I don't think quantity is the only factor. I think minimising PUFA and other poisons and getting all nutrients is important too. Often these factors are already covered by the OP or mentioned by someone else. I have even been known to make other suggestions myself.

Well Nabati, you have two opinions here, and you may get more. :)

 

[j.]

If eating what one naturally wants results in good health, that's great. Doesn't appear to be the case here.

That's what is called a straw man.

 

[tara]

If eating what one naturally wants results in good health, that's great. Doesn't appear to be the case here.

That's what is called a straw man.

Some people appetites lead them to meet their all nutritional needs, including energy ones, reasonably well, and they are reasonably healthy unless something else gets them. Various things can mess with appetite for some people, making it harder to meet nutritional needs, and this can result in reduced health. You don't seem to think this is the case here, and I think it may be. I haven't spotted the straw man yet.

Nabati has said he tends to not have much appetite. Even eating more than appetite dictates does not seem to have reached the levels that average non-dieting men eat. Therefore he has likely been in energy deficit, and eating to appetite, ie eating less, would have resulted in a greater energy deficit. Long term energy deficit normally results in reduced metabolism. Nabati reports symptoms of reduced metabolism.

Are you proposing that he eat to appetite, even if it is less than he eats now, and that this would result in better health? He is very thin, eating below normal needs, and running out of energy. Supplying less energy will help?

 

[Nabati]

Thanks both of you for commenting - I think you both have important things to say. I think appetite can be used as a good measure for how much people need to eat normally, but it's probably also helpful to realize external factors can influence it, like depression for instance. We aren't going to say that because someone is depressed and their appetite is suppressed that all of a sudden their nutritional requirements have been reduced (although that's a funny idea). Appetite may not be reliable enough, then. At the moment if I ate for appetite, I'm fairly certain I would lose energy, and maybe this would have a self-reinforcing pattern where I'd continue to eat even less for a while (due to lack of energy). So I do think tara has a point as well.

I forgot to mention one other bizarre thing that's happened to me the last few days upon waking. Once I wake up, after a few minutes I start having waves of an unpleasant feeling through my body which seems hormonal. I really wonder if this is some type of stress hormone or response since they're supposed to be highest in the morning. I don't know if this is a response to thyroid or what, but it just started recently. I think it's part of what's reduced my appetite.

I'm wary of taking anything like (cyproheptadine) due to my last experience with taking a prescription drug. I think if things like those worked more elegantly, it would be a nice solution.

I haven't thought about dried fruit because it's not really part of the core foods recommended and I'm not smart enough to read between the lines yet. I would consider it if it's valuable, because I used to eat a lot of dried fruit.

 

[Mittir]

In my earlier post i mentioned how Pectin in OJ is a major gut irritant.
RP has described in newsletter "Endotoxin, Stress and Depression: Serotonin,starches,
fatty acids and antidotes" how pectin,starch and other soluble fiber causes tons of
health issues. 90+ percentage of serotonin are produced in gut. I think
reading the "General dietary guideline" is quite helpful for newcomers.
I will point out all the possible source of gut irritant in this sample diet.

Orange: High in pectin, higher than apple and if oranges are not sweet and well ripened
then straining is not going to help at all. There is a RP email reply on this at
Email Advice section.

Egg: Egg whites have allergenic protein in it. Egg yolk has all the vitamins and
rate of allergic reaction to egg yolk is very low. I have seen people feel nauseated
with egg yolk. I remember reading some where that lack of certain vitamin
can cause that. Liver is a a very good replacement for egg yolk.
People can barely taste liver in a good liver pate. Eating large amount of
sugar with any allergenic food will minimize allergic reaction.

Raw Oyster: Seafood tend to produce large amount of histamine from the time
of it's death. Unless seafood is alive or very very fresh, histamine can be a problem.
B6 is involved in neutralizing histamine.

Chocolate: RP tried to use chocolate for magnesium source and had low sugar
problem. Leucine in chocolate is a major insulin stimulant. It is really hard to find
additive free chocolate.

Coffee: RP recommends coffee with a lot of sugar and cream and he also mentioned that
people who could not handle coffee were able to drink coffee with meal.
If coffee is irritating gut then it is reasonable to wait to add coffee until gut is fixed.

Milk: Low thyroid people tend to have problem digesting lactose due to low
lactase production. Lactose intolerant people can develop tolerance to
half a cup of milk 3 times a day with meals in few weeks. One can add milk slowly
or avoid milk until health is better. Skipping milk for few days can give a good idea
if milk is a problem.

Gelatine: RP recommends dissolving gelatin in liquid. If gelatin is not digested properly
it can feed bad bacteria. Lot of people here have problem with gelatin and they usually
do well on hydrolysate gelatine. In one article RP mentioned studies where they used
glycine supplement,magnesium glycinate. Casein has a better amino acid profile
that does not cause sharp rise in serotonin. Low tryptophan protein is very helpful.
RP has mentioned that Branched chain amino acids having anti serotonin activity.

Potato: Potato is rich in pectin, starch and solanine. RP thinks people with
major digestive problem should avoid starch completely.

Beef : Beef is fine as long as there is extra calcium with the meal to balance
excess phosphorus. One can take the calcium separately but with meal
calcium blocks some of the absorption of phosphate. Some extra gelatin is needed
with the beef to provide a good balance of amino acids in the system.

Blue cheese: Old cheese are usually high in histamine. Fresh cheese
(cottage cheese, farmer's cheese, strained yogurt) does not
have histamine problem but usually is low in calcium unless they added extra calcium.

Grapes: There is a white layer of yeast usually found in grapes and growers usually
add a lot sulfur as pesticide or preservative. Even organic grapes can be high in sulfur.

 

[Nabati]

Thanks Mittir.

My experience with food may be different from some other people's. In general I feel a little confused about emphasis on gut irritation, because I'm not sure I have that problem, if it's something I'm supposed to be able to sense. My sensitivities are more as follows: When I eat a few pieces of egg, I might notice almost immediate nausea (without following it with some juice). Same with potatoes if they're cooked in a way I don't like. This feeling of nausea is reactive to some foods and not others. I don't really experience a whole lot of digestive trouble that I know of. I feel more comfortable with cheese, fruits, and certain types of seafood like clams, oysters, and mussels. Strangely I'm able to eat liver a couple times a week and I don't mind the taste.

--

I think I'm going to take a break from thyroid, caffeine, mexicoke, and such. They seem to have a marked negative effect at the moment (but keep in mind I've used these things mixed up and inconsistently). Instead, I'm going to try increase my nutrient intake and really focus on the dietary stuff for a month or two. More liver, milk, OJ.. more everything. I've already been including more gelatin (green can). I'm also going to stop by a local organic farm and hopefully begin buying pastured eggs, cheese, and milk from them.

 

[Mittir]

I think a lot of people have misunderstanding about gut irritation.
Gut irritation does not always mean upset stomach or nausea or bloating.
One can have gut irritation without pronounced symptoms, it can be very subtle.
One easy way to figure it out is to remove that food for few days to see if it feels better.

RP recommends a good amount of sugar/carb with egg. Egg stimulates insulin
secretion and can cause low blood sugar if there is not enough sugar.

 

[tara]

I forgot to mention one other bizarre thing that's happened to me the last few days upon waking. Once I wake up, after a few minutes I start having waves of an unpleasant feeling through my body which seems hormonal. I really wonder if this is some type of stress hormone or response since they're supposed to be highest in the morning. I don't know if this is a response to thyroid or what, but it just started recently. I think it's part of what's reduced my appetite.

I know you are not pregnant :) , but during and after pregnancy (pre-Peat) , I couldn't get out of bed in the morning without a snack. I used to put bananas by the bed, and ususally ate one when I woke up in the night too, until I overdid it and got averse to them. I still snack in the night, and sometimes have juice before I get up. I'm not recommending bananas particularly, but maybe a snack as soon as you wake up, to quiet stress hormones?

I haven't thought about dried fruit because it's not really part of the core foods recommended and I'm not smart enough to read between the lines yet. I would consider it if it's valuable, because I used to eat a lot of dried fruit.

I don't think i'm smart enough to read between these lines, either. Mittir is much more knowledgable about the gut effects of different foods. I eat a little for convienience, mostly dates and sometimes others, but don't feel great if I eat lots. Sometimes convenience wins out for me because hunger is worse. They may have too much fibre, and some have preservatives that aren't great. Some people soak and peel their dates to reduce the fibre problem.

 

[Kray]

Mittir,

Thanks for the rundown on the "biggies"-- a useful reference!

 

[Nabati]

Hi guys,

I think it's necessary for me to purge some emotion again. One reason I like this forum is because it's not all brooding and there's a certain level of composure and decency involved, even among many people going through so much (MS, CFS, hypothyroidism, etc). On the other hand, this place would be nothing if not for us having the emotional maturity to talk about what ails us. This can't just be a nutrition site because too many people rely on it for more than that, including me.

To demonstrate what a bad mental state I'm in, I just signed up for online therapy. Most of my life people told me I would make a good psychologist or therapist. I've heard this repeatedly, but now I am the one enquiring for it. My life has made that kind of 180 turn in the last three months. I lament the lack of support I've had from pretty much everywhere except from members of this site and Danny Roddy. Honestly I feel isolated and I know no one is going to take care of me.

--

Where can I get the strength to move past doubt and keep up the fight?

 

[Blossom]

Hi guys,

I think it's necessary for me to purge some emotion again. One reason I like this forum is because it's not all brooding and there's a certain level of composure and decency involved, even among many people going through so much (MS, CFS, hypothyroidism, etc). On the other hand, this place would be nothing if not for us having the emotional maturity to talk about what ails us. This can't just be a nutrition site because too many people rely on it for more than that, including me.

To demonstrate what a bad mental state I'm in, I just signed up for online therapy. Most of my life people told me I would make a good psychologist or therapist. I've heard this repeatedly, but now I am the one enquiring for it. My life has made that kind of 180 turn in the last three months. I lament the lack of support I've had from pretty much everywhere except from members of this site and Danny Roddy. Honestly I feel isolated and I know no one is going to take care of me.

--

Where can I get the strength to move past doubt and keep up the fight?

From my experience this does definitely get better. It seemed like physical healing brought with it realizations and insights that I had formerly been too ill to deal with or process. I think talking with a therapist seems very reasonable. Just remember if you do not feel the particular therapist is the right fit don't waste a lot of time trying to work with that person. I had a lot of grieving to do over all that was seemingly lost to wasted years of poor health. Now I view all of that as valuable experience and lessons learned. I'm not sure if our situations are similar but I know as we attend to taking care of ourselves it is healing and empowering on many levels. I'm rooting for you!

 

[SQu]

Nabati, when your thyroid works better, it really helps the way you see your life. Not to belittle how you're feeling, not at all. I was very sorry to read that you feel nobody would care for you. I'm so sorry you feel that way, and I am really confident you will not feel this way forever. Or perhaps even for very much longer. Best wishes and keep updating.