My Journey To Optimal Health

[Cirion]

Man I need to get me some of that.

I like the taste. Maybe others won't. Maybe I'm just so salt deprived that anything rich in salt tastes glorious to me? Who knows lol. I have 10 more lbs of it in the mail delivering today as we speak.

 

[Cirion]

Were you ever taking extra precautions with high gelatin consumption when it comes to B12? Lots of protein from gelatin needs much more B12 to compensate as B12 is needed for protein synthesis. If you weren't the gelatin likely worsened B12 status or even created one. Despite liverwurst mixed with liver, kidney, and heart being a super food, I think the repletion of B12 and folate is likely at play for your positive effects. If libido is improving, that almost always means androgen synthesis is increasing.

I'm definitely open to the idea of B12 being part of the equation but it surely wasn't enough because just regular ground beef, even grass-fed, doesn't have the same effects for me.

 

[Cirion]

Just looked at chronometer. Woah, 8 oz of liverwurst has 30 mcg of B12 whereas 8 oz of ground beef only has 5 mcg. Well. That explains it. Yeah so liverwurst is literally the boss then. No other meat compares. At least when it comes to repleting deficiencies.

 

[charlie]

I have 10 more lbs of it in the mail delivering today as we speak.

Brag brag.

 

[redsun]

I'm definitely open to the idea of B12 being part of the equation but it surely wasn't enough because just regular ground beef, even grass-fed, doesn't have the same effects for me.

I think with a large enough quantity of liverwurst there is enough B12 ingested for some of it to be absorbed through diffusion beyond the limit of 2mcg per meal.

Just looked at chronometer. Woah, 8 oz of liverwurst has 30 mcg of B12 whereas 8 oz of ground beef only has 5 mcg. Well. That explains it.

Yeh there is enough B12 to absorb a few more micrograms through diffusion. This is how big doses of oral B12 work.

 

[Cirion]

Well, perhaps this might explain some things then.

If my deficiency is actually B12 and not B1 or B3, then energin would NOT help as energin has no B12 in it.

Here is an interesting fun fact BTW. I read this a few months ago, but wasn't reminded of it until now. B12 is a very common deficiency, and meat eaters are just as likely as vegan/vegetarians to be B12 deficient.. Let that sink in for a moment. If I find where I read that I'll post it.

This suggests that just sticking to muscle meats does NOT cover the B12 needs, which, as I've said, I don't do well on muscle meats and this may be precisely why -- chronic B12 deficiency even in spite of a meat generous diet. The only ways then, it seems, is to supplement it OR eat super rich B12 foods like organ meats.

 

[Vinny]

and meat eaters are just as likely as vegan/vegetarians to be B12 deficient..

Why???

 

[Cirion]

I found it:

StackPath

B12 deficiency isn't just a problem for vegans

The Framingham Offspring study found that 39% of the general population may be in the low normal and deficient B12 blood level range, and it was not just vegetarians or older people. This study showed no difference in the B12 blood levels of younger and older adults. Most interestingly there was no difference between those ate meat and those who did not. The people with the highest B12 blood levels were those who were taking B12 supplements and eating B12 fortified cereals.

So B12 deficiency isn't just a problem for vegans. Absorption of B12 requires an intact and functioning stomach, pancreas, sufficient quantities of intrinsic factor, and proper small bowel function. Problems with any one of these organs makes a vitamin B12 deficiency possible. For people who have problems absorbing B12 through their digestive system, injections can be given.

So why are meat eaters at risk for B12 deficiency despite eating meat containing B12?

In order for B12 to be absorbed it needs to attach to a carrier called Intrinsic Factor to pass from the intestines into the blood stream. Intrinsic Factor is made by parietal cells in the stomach. A lack of Intrinsic Factor causes the classic B12 deficiency disease called Pernicious Anemia where the body makes antibodies to attack parietal cells and destroy them.

Until recently we didn't know why autoimmune disorders like pernicious anemia developed but new research suggests that eating animal products causes animal sugars such as Neu5Gc to become attached to the human cells that line hollow organs such as the stomach.

Our immune system sees any cells with animal sugars on them as foreign and makes antibodies to destroy them. This attack by our immune system causes chronic inflammation and may explain many conditions such as atrophic gastritis that destroys both the acid-producing cells and the IF-producing cells in older people who eat meat.

Which might be why many elderly people develop a B12 deficiency regardless of their diet. In fact in the US the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the Institute of Medicine recommend B12 supplements for everyone over 50 years old.

Symptoms of a B12 deficiency are: weakness, tiredness, or lightheadedness; heart palpitations and shortness of breath; pale skin; a smooth tongue; constipation, diarrhea, a loss of appetite, or gas; nerve problems like numbness or tingling, muscle weakness, and problems walking; vision loss.

Regardless of your diet it's always a good idea to get annual blood tests to remain proactive in combating any deficiencies before symptoms are allowed to develop.

 

[Cirion]

Why???

Basically the soil is B12 depleted due to crap farming practices. So even grass-fed animals are B12 deficient. I found it interesting that they have to give B12 supplements to the animals themselves.

Grain-fed animals would be even more deficient.

 

[redsun]

Well, perhaps this might explain some things then.

If my deficiency is actually B12 and not B1 or B3, then energin would NOT help as energin has no B12 in it.

Here is an interesting fun fact BTW. I read this a few months ago, but wasn't reminded of it until now. B12 is a very common deficiency, and meat eaters are just as likely as vegan/vegetarians to be B12 deficient.. Let that sink in for a moment. If I find where I read that I'll post it.

This suggests that just sticking to muscle meats does NOT cover the B12 needs, which, as I've said, I don't do well on muscle meats and this may be precisely why -- chronic B12 deficiency even in spite of a meat generous diet. The only ways then, it seems, is to supplement it OR eat super rich B12 foods like organ meats.

Well you can have other B deficiencies but B12 and folate deficiencies are crippling in a way that B1 and B3 may not be because of their effects on protein synthesis. And B12 is most often the bigger issue as folate and folic acid is high in most diets but in modern days where we dont eat organs B12 can be lacking.

I think the reason "meat-eaters" are supposedly just as lacking B12 as vegetarians is because even meat eater dont eat much meat nowadays. And beef has become less popular while chicken has taken over. Chicken and pork are terrible sources of B12. The problem is we likely have a much higher B12 requirement nowadays because of increased daily stressors which depletes B12. That can explain why just muscle isnt enough for B12.

I found it:

StackPath

I don't agree with their reasoning, I think it's ridiculous to suggest animals are the problem when animals are the only source of B12. Sounds like pro-cereal propaganda but regardless I agree that we have an epidemic of nutrient deprived people but thats because no one eats organs nowadays.

Basically the soil is B12 depleted due to crap farming practices. So even grass-fed animals are B12 deficient. I found it interesting that they have to give B12 supplements to the animals themselves.

Grain-fed animals would be even more deficient.

Wouldnt be so sure about that. If that was the case the whole modern world would have dropped dead from exhaustion and protein deficiency(caused by inability to make proteins from lack of B12).

 

[Cirion]

I don't agree with their reasoning, I think it's ridiculous to suggest animals are the problem when animals are the only source of B12. Sounds like pro-cereal propaganda but regardless I agree that we have an epidemic of nutrient deprived people because no one eats organs nowadays.

Animals are not the only source of B12. Plants used to be, until we ruined the B12 levels in the soil from over-farming. In fact animals get B12 from plants, and then we get B12 from the animals that way, so we indirectly get it from plants. Well, that's not entirely true. Because most animals get B12 supplementation nowadays, we basically get that also indirectly. I still resonate with a lot of vegan ideas, but I also now think maybe at least some (organ) meat is required for optimal health. But, that's an argument for another time.

I think the reason "meat-eaters" are supposedly just as lacking B12 as vegetarians is because even meat eater dont eat much meat nowadays. And beef has become less popular while chicken has taken over. Chicken and pork are terrible sources of B12. The problem is we likely have a much higher B12 requirement nowadays because of increased daily stressors which depletes B12. That can explain why just muscle isnt enough for B12.

Actually, I was just reading in another book btw that the average American eats two to three times recommended RDA of protein so there goes that theory. However, there is an epidemic of inability to process protein, so despite eating 2-3X RDA, the average American is also in a functional protein deficiency. It all starts to make sense if you realize that people are lacking the cofactors (like B12) required to process the protein.

The other problem is that the average joe is in chronic stress (which you alluded to) which means their bodily proteins are being catabolized for glucose on a chronic basis, which exasperates the problem.

Wouldnt be so sure about that. If that was the case the whole modern world would have dropped dead from exhaustion and protein deficiency(caused by inability to make proteins from lack of B12).

You won't die from a deficiency but you will be crippled with many problems. And yes, people nowadays are sicker and more lethargic and lower androgens and higher stress than ever before. I'm sure not all of that is traceable to B12 deficiencies (of course things like EMF, pufa, factor in as well) certainly though.

 

[Vinny]

Absorption of B12 requires an intact and functioning stomach, pancreas, sufficient quantities of intrinsic factor, and proper small bowel function. Problems with any one of these organs makes a vitamin B12 deficiency possible.

So, compromised digestion - and there you go!

 

[Cirion]

So, compromised digestion - and there you go!

Damn yeah, this is why being hypothyroid is the worst. Nothing works right, and yet to cure yourself you have to make things work somehow because the stuff you need to make work is contained in foods and sometimes supplements, but often times you can't process the foods or even supplements so that doesn't work... which leaves one option...

And that is...hope you have some spare ammo laying around so you can blow your brains out.... LOL. just kidding of course. don't do that.

 

[redsun]

Animals are not the only source of B12. Plants used to be, until we ruined the B12 levels in the soil from over-farming. In fact animals get B12 from plants, and then we get B12 from the animals that way, so we indirectly get it from plants. Well, that's not entirely true. Because most animals get B12 supplementation nowadays, we basically get that also indirectly. I still resonate with a lot of vegan ideas, but I also now think maybe at least some (organ) meat is required for optimal health. But, that's an argument for another time.

Plants never had B12 because B12 is an animal vitamin synthesized only by bacteria. Animals eat plants which can provide cobalt obviously which is needed to make B12. The bacteria in the guts of ruminants make B12 from dietary cobalt and they absorb it.

Even if its true that animals are supplemented with B12, that's likely because of the antibiotics they are given killing off B12 producing bacteria making it necessary. In the end cobalamin(whatever the type) is made from bacteria, it can't be made another way so technically the cobalamin in a pill is the same because its derived from bacteria in a lab. Don't worry in time you will come to the dark side

Actually, I was just reading in another book btw that the average American eats two to three times recommended RDA of protein so there goes that theory. However, there is an epidemic of inability to process protein, so despite eating 2-3X RDA, the average American is also in a functional protein deficiency. It all starts to make sense if you realize that people are lacking the cofactors (like B12) required to process the protein.

You won't die from a deficiency but you will be crippled with many problems. And yes, people nowadays are sicker and more lethargic and lower androgens and higher stress than ever before. I'm sure not all of that is traceable to B12 deficiencies (of course things like EMF, pufa, factor in as well) certainly though.

B12 requirement increases with increasing protein intake. So if you are gettings tons of protein solely from chicken, pork, and processed meats which are devoid of B12 you will be deficient, its not a question of protein intake, its a question of nutrient density(isn't it always?). I would argue if your main source of protein isn't comprised majorly of beef, organs, seafood, eggs, then all it takes is a stressful event or short term lax eating habits to start ruining you.

You won't die from a deficiency but you will be crippled with many problems. And yes, people nowadays are sicker and more lethargic and lower androgens and higher stress than ever before. I'm sure not all of that is traceable to B12 deficiencies (of course things like EMF, pufa, factor in as well) certainly though.

You will die if its bad enough but the human body has B12 stores that can last for years assuming you stopped getting B12 completely. And most get just enough B12 to not be dead in a few years but barely living.

 

[Cirion]

Don't worry in time you will come to the dark side

Lol I doubt it. But hey, maybe we can take a wager... say a lb of beef I owe you if I'm wrong? lol

And if I win you owe me some maple syrup...

 

[redsun]

Lol I doubt it. But hey, maybe we can take a wager... say a lb of beef I owe you if I'm wrong? lol

And if I win you owe me some maple syrup...

Who doesn't like free meat?

 

[Vinny]

Ok, guys, let me ask you:

We start to supplement B12 now? If yes, in what form and how much?

 

[redsun]

Ok, guys, let me ask you:

We start to supplement B12 now? If yes, in what form and how much?

You mean for yourself? I dont think its wise to supplement B12 by itself, it should be with methylfolate and too much of one will deplete the other unless you had a blood test to confirm severe deficiency.

 

[Vinny]

You mean for yourself? I dont think its wise to supplement B12 by itself, it should be with methylfolate and too much of one will deplete the other unless you had a blood test to confirm severe deficiency.

Yes, for myself.
So, the other way then? Via improving digestion? If yes, how?

 

[lampofred]

Oysters are also a good source of B12. I think liver as well.