Magnesium And Bone Ache

[lindsay]

I think the idea might be that if there is a lot of inflammation and therefore a reduced lumen diameter, and if there is low energy available (eg low metabolism or low CO2), then it takes a lot of serotonin to stimulate enough peristalsis to keep the GI moving adequately.
If the inflammation can be reduced, then it's not so hard to push things through.
And if the metabolism is strong, maybe the gut keeps moving better anyway, even with less serotonin? I'm not sure about this last one.

I don't think the serotonin is all in the lumen of the gut, and so excreted (maybe some of it is, I don't know). I think it is in the tissue of the gut - acting on the muscles etc somehow to kick them into action - so more systemic.

Yes - this makes sense. I am just trying to make sense of what is actually causing serotonin issues and what is normal and healthy. Some foods definitely trigger serotonin - but for me, I only feel terrible and "serotonin" like when I cannot have a comfortable (or any) bowel movement. And this is what I don't understand about anti-serotonin drugs because I would imagine they would lower bowel movement frequency.

 

[mayweatherking]

How much zinc are you taking? My experience is that zinc is very poorly utilized until basic cellular energy is improved through intracellular magnesium and either increased production or supplementation of thyroid. I can't remember the reference, but I'm pretty sure I've read that high zinc supplementation can raise prolactin. I'm not sure what the mechanism would be, but maybe it could be from gut irritation from malabsorbed zinc. I also think it's misguided to take large amounts of zinc from food or supplement to correct a deficiency when there isn't sufficient cellular energy to assimilate it.

What kind of milk are you drinking and how much? When I tried to use milk as a staple when my metabolism sucked I just gained enormous amounts of water weight quickly and felt cold. Taking a few mg of taurine with milk really helped it digest a lot better. Since large amounts of milk require large amounts of gastric acid I think milk as a staple can be problematic when trying to improve health. Milk obviously isn't a reliable source of calcium if you aren't digesting it fully. I even wonder if the phosphate portion of the milk could be absorbed better than the calcium molecules in some instances, leading to an even worse calcium/phosphate ratio (just an idea, I don't know if it's possible or not).

So I'm a really big fan of using taurine for hitting several important stones at once: improving fat, protein, and vitamin digestion, improving liver health, getting rid of excess unbound copper in the liver, improving alkaline ion regulation of Na, Mg, Ca, and K.

I'm pretty sure the technique that worked for me was:
1) saturating my tissues with taurine. Probably taking about 12 grams per day in doses of up to 4 grams after meals for a few weeks. And then smaller amounts as necessary to keep taurine levels up.

2) Eating a high sodium diet, mostly lower liquid solid foods and meals (not just milk or juice as the main foods, although some is fine). This is mostly to improve digestion.

3) Taking baking soda baths regularly (a pound per bath) to increase sodium quickly to a high level, which seem to be retained well with the help of taurine, even without thyroid supplmentation.

4) Supplementing magnesium. Sipping diluted magnesium chloride with a little baking soda in a glass of water between meals worked really well for me, but other forms probably work just as well.

I don't know if this approach will work for you or someone else, but I'm fairly sure it's the essential elements of the approach that worked for me. Pretty quickly I could tell things were working. My saliva had a constant pleasant milky alkaline taste even though I wasn't consuming any milk and little dairy at the time (I assume from soft tissue calcium being removed and being utilized properly now back into teeth and bones). I had warm extremities constantly. Started having morning erections. Zinc containing foods started having noticeable androgenic, prolactin/estrogen lowering effects.

I just maintained this state through the four things I listed until it seemed my natural thyroid production was kicking in. I'm in a much better place now, but I still take smaller amounts of taurine and do these other things to some degree because I still get positive effects from them. I also think a B complex or just some P5P B6 can be helpful, although I'm not sure it is essential to my approach.

Anyways, just throwing this out there for consideration as your symptoms and condition remind me a little of where I was at once.

Bro... I just got my prolactin tested.... I went from 27 to 7 in like a week........ holy crap. but my pth is still hihh at 21. God bless all that coffee ive been drinking and zinc im doing. ... I guess gaining all the wright has been good

 

[tara]

And this is what I don't understand about anti-serotonin drugs because I would imagine they would lower bowel movement frequency.

They do seem to have that effect for some people. Seems like a bit of a trade off to me - if your gut is relying on serotonin for peristalsis, and you just reduce the serotonin without doing anything to help keep the gut moving, then I'm assuming that could increase endotoxin load for some of us. That was the thinking that got me buying cascara sagrada, anyway.

 

[mayweatherking]

last week......

damn.... i wonder why my PTH is so high though if my prolactin dropped to 7.................................................................... no thyroid right now

 

[lindsay]

They do seem to have that effect for some people. Seems like a bit of a trade off to me - if your gut is relying on serotonin for peristalsis, and you just reduce the serotonin without doing anything to help keep the gut moving, then I'm assuming that could increase endotoxin load for some of us. That was the thinking that got me buying cascara sagrada, anyway.

But does cascara sagrada cause the gut to produce more serotonin? I've been using it for awhile now to keep me consistent, but sometimes I think it can be irritating - it all depends on the day though. What brand do you use? And how do you take it?

 

[tara]

But does cascara sagrada cause the gut to produce more serotonin? I've been using it for awhile now to keep me consistent, but sometimes I think it can be irritating - it all depends on the day though. What brand do you use? And how do you take it?

My reading of Peat's article about cascara sagrada is that (unlike some pharmaceutical laxatives), cascara sagrada does not increase serotonin, but reduces inflammation in the gut, and therefore increases the lumen size and decreases resistance.

I use the only form I've been able to easily source here - Nature's Way capsules. I can't say whether the quality compares well or badly with other forms, except that there are some unwanted excipients. From time to time I open a capsule and use 1/2 or 1 capsule at a time, pour hot water over the powder to make tea, and avoid drinking much of the sediment. I get noticable movement, but not dramatic effects. Apparently some people use much more, and sometimes do get more dramatic. :)

I think Peat has recommended Farma Labor in Italy as a good source, and some here have acquired this. Vendor Health Natura also sells some - I can't remember if people have reported their experience of this one.

 

[heartnhands]

They do seem to have that effect for some people. Seems like a bit of a trade off to me - if your gut is relying on serotonin for peristalsis, and you just reduce the serotonin without doing anything to help keep the gut moving, then I'm assuming that could increase endotoxin load for some of us. That was the thinking that got me buying cascara sagrada, anyway.

The cascara seems to be the most gentle and beneficial of any gut gittyup sort of stuff I've ever used. It's definitely one of the new things encouraged through Peat resources. Being that my grandmother had a strong old world Italian sense of remaining healthy that meant she expected that the solids eaten should move through within 24 hours, various shakers and movers are a home grown list for me, but most of them create some gasses that can be painful. Dries fruits like prunes, apples, and others may be safe if not sulphured, but some say they also consentrate iron that can lead to dark spots. Green like broccoli rabe, and others cooked with panchetta, an Italian cooking bacon, and garlic are yummy but don't always do the trick. The cooking water from greens can work but is a bitter drink. Celery juice can work but not usually after the first or second use and I don't think raw veg. Juice is Peaty. The pills like senecot, ex-lax, and others work, but probably cause some other estrogenic stress stuff. Charcoal works great but probably takes out some vitamins too. The little bottle of magnesium citrate works but can also wash out so much that magnesium, calcium, potassium imbalance could cause much bigger problems. I don't know what Peat experts say about aloe vera but it's the only other substance I've seen used effortlessly. The cascara seems like aspirin for the tummy tissues.

 

[mayweatherking]

But does cascara sagrada cause the gut to produce more serotonin? I've been using it for awhile now to keep me consistent, but sometimes I think it can be irritating - it all depends on the day though. What brand do you use? And how do you take it?

where do you get mangesium from in your diet? i noticed i've been doing way better since adding a lot of coffee to my diet.

 

[mayweatherking]

How much zinc are you taking? My experience is that zinc is very poorly utilized until basic cellular energy is improved through intracellular magnesium and either increased production or supplementation of thyroid. I can't remember the reference, but I'm pretty sure I've read that high zinc supplementation can raise prolactin. I'm not sure what the mechanism would be, but maybe it could be from gut irritation from malabsorbed zinc. I also think it's misguided to take large amounts of zinc from food or supplement to correct a deficiency when there isn't sufficient cellular energy to assimilate it.

What kind of milk are you drinking and how much? When I tried to use milk as a staple when my metabolism sucked I just gained enormous amounts of water weight quickly and felt cold. Taking a few mg of taurine with milk really helped it digest a lot better. Since large amounts of milk require large amounts of gastric acid I think milk as a staple can be problematic when trying to improve health. Milk obviously isn't a reliable source of calcium if you aren't digesting it fully. I even wonder if the phosphate portion of the milk could be absorbed better than the calcium molecules in some instances, leading to an even worse calcium/phosphate ratio (just an idea, I don't know if it's possible or not).

So I'm a really big fan of using taurine for hitting several important stones at once: improving fat, protein, and vitamin digestion, improving liver health, getting rid of excess unbound copper in the liver, improving alkaline ion regulation of Na, Mg, Ca, and K.

I'm pretty sure the technique that worked for me was:
1) saturating my tissues with taurine. Probably taking about 12 grams per day in doses of up to 4 grams after meals for a few weeks. And then smaller amounts as necessary to keep taurine levels up.

2) Eating a high sodium diet, mostly lower liquid solid foods and meals (not just milk or juice as the main foods, although some is fine). This is mostly to improve digestion.

3) Taking baking soda baths regularly (a pound per bath) to increase sodium quickly to a high level, which seem to be retained well with the help of taurine, even without thyroid supplmentation.

4) Supplementing magnesium. Sipping diluted magnesium chloride with a little baking soda in a glass of water between meals worked really well for me, but other forms probably work just as well.

I don't know if this approach will work for you or someone else, but I'm fairly sure it's the essential elements of the approach that worked for me. Pretty quickly I could tell things were working. My saliva had a constant pleasant milky alkaline taste even though I wasn't consuming any milk and little dairy at the time (I assume from soft tissue calcium being removed and being utilized properly now back into teeth and bones). I had warm extremities constantly. Started having morning erections. Zinc containing foods started having noticeable androgenic, prolactin/estrogen lowering effects.

I just maintained this state through the four things I listed until it seemed my natural thyroid production was kicking in. I'm in a much better place now, but I still take smaller amounts of taurine and do these other things to some degree because I still get positive effects from them. I also think a B complex or just some P5P B6 can be helpful, although I'm not sure it is essential to my approach.

Anyways, just throwing this out there for consideration as your symptoms and condition remind me a little of where I was at once.

when i supplemented high amounts of zinc, i noticed my fungus went down quickly, but i think it was causing my bones to ache for some reason.

what form of taurine were you taking? do you have a link?

i need something to work asap, i got off thyroid and zinc because my bone ache, but now all my problems are returning. i'm doing "nofap",on around day 12 or 13 and i notice i wake up now every morning at like 4 or 5 am no matter tthe time i go to sleep, i think it is improving my cortisol or something and not causing stress. but i want to restart again, but i'm not sure if i can handle it or i don't know what form of zinc to take.

can you tell me what solid foods you were eating?

i honestly seemed to be on a roll there for a second, but i kept getting bones ache, it was so weird.

 

[Brian]

when i supplemented high amounts of zinc, i noticed my fungus went down quickly, but i think it was causing my bones to ache for some reason.

what form of taurine were you taking? do you have a link?

i need something to work asap, i got off thyroid and zinc because my bone ache, but now all my problems are returning. i'm doing "nofap",on around day 12 or 13 and i notice i wake up now every morning at like 4 or 5 am no matter tthe time i go to sleep, i think it is improving my cortisol or something and not causing stress. but i want to restart again, but i'm not sure if i can handle it or i don't know what form of zinc to take.

can you tell me what solid foods you were eating?

i honestly seemed to be on a roll there for a second, but i kept getting bones ache, it was so weird.

I've used the purebulk.com taurine with good results.

I eat a pretty standard american diet with traditional meals. Stuff like french toast, omelets, meatloaf, mashed potatoes, sandwiches, tacos, hamburgers, mostly homemade with smaller amounts of milk, juice, fruit, and cooked vegetables. This type of diet is probably better for someone who is more active or does regular strength training because of the amount of starch, but it's what I personally find satisfying and practical and digests consistently well. It's also easy to get enough salt with these foods. It's basically how I ate before I started trying to be "healthy" except now I use a little better ingredients.

If you're going to do it more Peat style I would think better solid, condensed food staples would be greek yogurt with honey, cooked fruit with added sugar syrup, eggs, shrimp, beef, and then smaller amounts of milk and juice just to wash it down. I'm not really an expert on Peaty cuisine though. I eat SAD. SAD and proud.

I do think nofap is helpful when you're in a hormonal hole, but I doubt there's any major benefit to going more than 7-14 days. It just makes sense that if your hormones are out of whack that your body can't handle frequent prolactin spikes. Keeping the frequency to no more than once a week should give a little of an edge for diet and lifestyle to make more progress.

Some zinc in the diet or supplement is good, but I'm fairly convinced magnesium is the foundational powerhouse for hormonal balance. The trick is getting that damn magnesium to enter and be retained in the cell. Absorbed energy and protein abundance seems to be the key for most vitamin and mineral retention issues. So a well digested diet that is higher in easy to absorb calories and protein, and maybe something like taurine to help it all digest better can do the trick, without needing to use thyroid.

 

[mayweatherking]

I've used the purebulk.com taurine with good results.

I eat a pretty standard american diet with traditional meals. Stuff like french toast, omelets, meatloaf, mashed potatoes, sandwiches, tacos, hamburgers, mostly homemade with smaller amounts of milk, juice, fruit, and cooked vegetables. This type of diet is probably better for someone who is more active or does regular strength training because of the amount of starch, but it's what I personally find satisfying and practical and digests consistently well. It's also easy to get enough salt with these foods. It's basically how I ate before I started trying to be "healthy" except now I use a little better ingredients.

If you're going to do it more Peat style I would think better solid, condensed food staples would be greek yogurt with honey, cooked fruit with added sugar syrup, eggs, shrimp, beef, and then smaller amounts of milk and juice just to wash it down. I'm not really an expert on Peaty cuisine though. I eat SAD. SAD and proud.

I do think nofap is helpful when you're in a hormonal hole, but I doubt there's any major benefit to going more than 7-14 days. It just makes sense that if your hormones are out of whack that your body can't handle frequent prolactin spikes. Keeping the frequency to no more than once a week should give a little of an edge for diet and lifestyle to make more progress.

Some zinc in the diet or supplement is good, but I'm fairly convinced magnesium is the foundational powerhouse for hormonal balance. The trick is getting that damn magnesium to enter and be retained in the cell. Absorbed energy and protein abundance seems to be the key for most vitamin and mineral retention issues. So a well digested diet that is higher in easy to absorb calories and protein, and maybe something like taurine to help it all digest better can do the trick, without needing to use thyroid.

okay thanks man... it sounds like you are basically not peating at all to be honest. you seem to really know your stuff, im surprised you do gluten.

have you ever heard of people getting bone ache from thyroid? it is for sure from thyroid. i took around .25 and noticed the aches in my hands from it. something tells me its from lack of magnesium or calcium not getting in the bones, but it should be. i got my prolactin tested last week and since doing a lot of coffee, i got it down to 7.

do you know what would happen to your body if you didnt have magnesium for around 4 or 5 dayas straight, how would you fix the problems that came about from that? something permanent? it's too bad... if thyroid worked right now without hte bone ache, i think i would be perfect... when i take thyroid, i get this ache in my hand... i dk what to do about it... lol.

yeah im trying to just keep prolactin down no matter what, im just not going to fap at all until i figure this out. i notice i can have dreams more frequently without doing it.. and i want to retain as much zinc as possible. i have noticed positive effects from long term, but i havent done any blood to work to prove anyhting ground breaking, just personal experience.. like better sleep, very very clear skin, libido gets better, better able to handle myself in conversations, more confidence. maybe if i hold out, it will allow all htese minerals to get where they need to go is honestly where im trying to get, i would love to not do nofap to be honest lol.

 

[Brian]

okay thanks man... it sounds like you are basically not peating at all to be honest. you seem to really know your stuff, im surprised you do gluten.

have you ever heard of people getting bone ache from thyroid? it is for sure from thyroid. i took around .25 and noticed the aches in my hands from it. something tells me its from lack of magnesium or calcium not getting in the bones, but it should be. i got my prolactin tested last week and since doing a lot of coffee, i got it down to 7.

do you know what would happen to your body if you didnt have magnesium for around 4 or 5 dayas straight, how would you fix the problems that came about from that? something permanent? it's too bad... if thyroid worked right now without hte bone ache, i think i would be perfect... when i take thyroid, i get this ache in my hand... i dk what to do about it... lol.

yeah im trying to just keep prolactin down no matter what, im just not going to fap at all until i figure this out. i notice i can have dreams more frequently without doing it.. and i want to retain as much zinc as possible. i have noticed positive effects from long term, but i havent done any blood to work to prove anyhting ground breaking, just personal experience.. like better sleep, very very clear skin, libido gets better, better able to handle myself in conversations, more confidence. maybe if i hold out, it will allow all htese minerals to get where they need to go is honestly where im trying to get, i would love to not do nofap to be honest lol.

I'd be lost intellectually about metabolism without Peat's theoretical framework, but applying Peat's ideas for me has little do with the specifics of diet other than avoiding too much PUFA. I get enough results from simply eating eat a lot of decent quality food, sitting less, and keeping magnesium and calcium intake up. In most cases I don't think the specifics matter much beyond that.

I think gluten is one of those things like potatoes and other nightshades that people can be sensitive to when their gut permeability is high due to low thyroid, magnesium and vitamin A etc, but otherwise any negative effects are negligible. I seem to digest it well now without problems, so I don't avoid it at all. I don't really avoid anything other than PUFA. I just eat.

I don't really know what's going on with your bone aching and thyroid supplementation. My total guess is that when a person is significantly deficient in magnesium and therefore also ATP, thyroid supplementation may cause most of your intake to be absorbed quickly into muscles and other areas of the body may locally become more deficient. I think I remember reading something from Peat that mentioned this, but I may be remembering it wrong. A few years ago I was supplementing iodine and I became hyperthyroid and I think I burned up a lot of nutrients to the point of deficiency including magnesium. I remember having some bone pain in my shin. I wonder if something similar was going on with me.

Haidut's idea of combining DMSO with magnesium seems promising for those who are very deficient and are having trouble restoring cellular levels even with taking thyroid.

Keeping prolactin down 24/7 when metabolism is low through nofap is smart I think, but one of the main stimulators of prolactin release is low cellular energy/ATP and hypoglycemia in the brain (probably even more so than a zinc deficiency), so maybe that's one reason why getting intracellular magnesium levels up can have such a positive hormonal effect.

 

[Kray]

In addition, taurine regulates electrolyte balance, so it may aid magnesium retention. But the primary factor in magnesium retention is ATP, which is low in hypothyroidism. This is why Peat says that he only takes magnesium together with a little T3. Otherwise, most of the magnesium ends up excreted.
I am hoping to remediate somewhat the magnesium retention issue with my future supplement of magnesium dissolved in DMSO. When dissolved in DMSO magnesium can easily get inside the cell and does not need much ATP to do so.

Haidut, how close are you to making your Mg supplement available?

 

[hcrans64]

I am experience similar sounding bone aches (fingers and elbow for me) when taking Taurine. Usually starts an hour or 2 after taking it and last for a few hours. Would it be for the similar reasons as the person taking magnesium... I know that Georgi mentioned Taurine and mineral regulation here so was thinking it might be similar. Did anything work for you @mayweatherking besides stopping magnesium?