My Methylation Findings

[Such_Saturation]

It's female sex hormone problems I'd say.

Well yes Ray Peat already presents a likely mechanism for this case, but I'm wondering if the knowledge about minerals could offer a more lightweight solution.

 

[kineticz]

Well yes Ray Peat already presents a likely mechanism for this case, but I'm wondering if the knowledge about minerals could offer a more lightweight solution.

I know that NADH donates hydrogen ions and potassium pumps the ions into the stomach to make HCl. B2 deficiency from high phosphates and oxidized glutathione causes gastritis and taking it cured my ability to absorb iron supplements overnight. NADH is the "shell" for reduced glutathione in the blood so stomach performance comes full circle here. Stomach performance is intimately linked to the redox state and niacin metabolism.

 

[kineticz]

Prior to taking B2, iron supplements would go straight through the inflammed stomach lining and give toxicity symptoms.

 

[whodathunkit]

High acetylcholine relative to dopamine and serotonin is indeed not desirable from experience.

Yeah, I'm working on dopamine, too. And of course reducing serotonin, since I suspect that's been a big part of my problem.

B2 may have been a missing or deficient co-factor in my previous attempts to boost glutathione with glycine, etc.

I just ordered some of both l-serine and glycine off Amazon, since I'm almost out of glycine anyway. What dose and what time of day do you recommend? I'll research but a rec would be helpful. Taking PS at night was helpful to me when my adrenals were severely crashed. Glycine I take at night anyway as I find it relaxes me.

Regarding carnitine: the LCF recommended by Freddd was a big part of my recovery. I don't really seem to need it any more (although never say never) but for a long while it was essential. I took 1000mg/day for several years. Based on what you know, could this competition between carnitine and choline have caused an increase in brainfog some way?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Prior to taking B2, iron supplements would go straight through the inflammed stomach lining and give toxicity symptoms.

That's cool I will ask if the iron supplements cause problems. Would HCl supplements solve this problem temporarily? And wouldn't you check stuff like binding capacity and saturation before thinking about a real iron deficiency?

 

[tankasnowgod]

I found out that I have hemochromatosis, but it gets worse, I not only retain iron, I had low stomach acid so I wasn't absorbing iron either! With my family history of kidney disease you can understand my life's struggle. A sluggish liver and anemia cause high phosphates which leach calcium in the bone.

I was wondering how you found out you had hemochomatosis. High Ferritin or TSAT? Or the genetic test? If you had high iron stores, absorbing less iron would actually be beneficial. However, if you were taking supplemental iron, I could see how that could wreak havoc with digestion. Although if you have hemochomatosis, I can't imagine a scenario where iron supplements would be beneficial, unless they overbled you.

That being said, if you were anemic, that's no good either. Although I know there are a number of reasons that anemia (low hemoglobin) can happen with very high iron stores.

 

[kineticz]

That's cool I will ask if the iron supplements cause problems. Would HCl supplements solve this problem temporarily? And wouldn't you check stuff like binding capacity and saturation before thinking about a real iron deficiency?

The problem with acidic supplements such as betaine HCl is that when lactic acid is high, further acidity causes bone loss which worsens the responsiveness of bone marrow to B12. So despite taking in the iron you could be eroding your bones to compensate. As we all know, paradoxical reactions and timing are imperative so simply taking in iron could be at great cost. B12, NADH and all it's heme and redox cofactors have to be adequate for iron to avoid toxicity.

Potassium retention is important to prevent lactic acid and buffer the acidity. Having a higher ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione should also help.

 

[kineticz]

I was wondering how you found out you had hemochomatosis. High Ferritin or TSAT? Or the genetic test? If you had high iron stores, absorbing less iron would actually be beneficial. However, if you were taking supplemental iron, I could see how that could wreak havoc with digestion. Although if you have hemochomatosis, I can't imagine a scenario where iron supplements would be beneficial, unless they overbled you.

That being said, if you were anemic, that's no good either. Although I know there are a number of reasons that anemia (low hemoglobin) can happen with very high iron stores.

I had a thorough blood test and my hemochromatosis reading was off the scale.

The anemia is actually self-induced by heavy handedness of MB12, hence I am able to come back here and amend my theories on methylation to include the production of heme.

Since backing off the MB12 for a year and learning about the redox cycle and B2, I am now able to take MB12 with really exciting results in terms of stamina and wellbeing. I've tried all the supplements that supposedly help the gut, SIBO and hypochlorydia, all that and could never take in iron without horrible symptoms. Immediately by finding out that low B2 caused by high phosphates and low ATP - ADP - ATP in the mitochondria just happens to cause gastritis. As soon as I added high dose B2 I can take MB12 and iron and feel fantastic. All those gut supplements are the biggest scam on this earth.

 

[kineticz]

Having both hemochromatosis and self induced anemia due to a meltdown of stomach performance = lots of edema. My brain function was very bad for a while.

 

[kineticz]

I wanted to clarify that all the above are my own judgements and people can make their own mind up about trying betaine HCl.

 

[Such_Saturation]

The problem with acidic supplements such as betaine HCl is that when lactic acid is high, further acidity causes bone loss which worsens the responsiveness of bone marrow to B12. So despite taking in the iron you could be eroding your bones to compensate. As we all know, paradoxical reactions and timing are imperative so simply taking in iron could be at great cost. B12, NADH and all it's heme and redox cofactors have to be adequate for iron to avoid toxicity.

Potassium retention is important to prevent lactic acid and buffer the acidity. Having a higher ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione should also help.

This is interesting. How does messing with copper alter iron retention?

 

[kineticz]

This is interesting. How does messing with copper alter iron retention?

Copper and iron are toxic if they do not share the same words of warning as above i.e. the cofactors. Ceruloplasmin is stimulated by ATP in the liver so a fatty liver can cause iron and copper toxicity. High copper has also been shown to deteriorate Vitamin B5 which causes low co enzyme A in the gut, also a possible cause of iron and copper toxicity.

Copper stimulates downstream burnout of dopamine and thyroxine into adrenaline - thyroid obviously being needed to drive oxygen and sugar/fats into the mitochondria for ATP (so can cause fatty liver as well as accumulate as a result of fatty liver). Perhaps those with low T4 are more susceptible to copper and iron toxicity.

 

[kineticz]

I have very low T4 so it does stack up with my thoughts and iron problems.

If ATP is sufficient however then copper will increase iron in serum and can cause iron deficiency anemia.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Copper and iron are toxic if they do not share the same words of warning as above i.e. the cofactors. Ceruloplasmin is stimulated by ATP in the liver so a fatty liver can cause iron and copper toxicity. High copper has also been shown to deteriorate Vitamin B5 which causes low co enzyme A in the gut, also a possible cause of iron and copper toxicity.

Copper stimulates downstream burnout of dopamine and thyroxine into adrenaline - thyroid obviously being needed to drive oxygen and sugar/fats into the mitochondria for ATP (so can cause fatty liver as well as accumulate as a result of fatty liver). Perhaps those with low T4 are more susceptible to copper and iron toxicity.

Did you verify your liver iron overload with the ALT to ferritin (or was it iron) ratio that haidut posted?

 

[kineticz]

Did you verify your liver iron overload with the ALT to ferritin (or was it iron) ratio that haidut posted?

No I verified it myself with a very expensive blood test.

 

[tankasnowgod]

As soon as I added high dose B2 I can take MB12 and iron and feel fantastic.

Again, if you have hemochormatosis, you really shouldn't be taking ANY supplemental iron. You already have plenty of iron, and should really be focusing on getting de-ironed (by either phlebotomy or iron chelators or dietary interventions). If you have anemia AND high iron (in other words, high ferritin and low hemoglobin), it could be some other vitamin deficiency (B6, folate, B12, C), and phlebotomy might not be an option, but more iron isn't the answer, either.

I gather you had some issues with the methylated B12, but I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.

Are you doing theraputic phlebotomies to get your iron under control, or something else?

 

[kineticz]

Again, if you have hemochormatosis, you really shouldn't be taking ANY supplemental iron. You already have plenty of iron, and should really be focusing on getting de-ironed (by either phlebotomy or iron chelators or dietary interventions). If you have anemia AND high iron (in other words, high ferritin and low hemoglobin), it could be some other vitamin deficiency (B6, folate, B12, C), and phlebotomy might not be an option, but more iron isn't the answer, either.

I gather you had some issues with the methylated B12, but I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.

Are you doing theraputic phlebotomies to get your iron under control, or something else?

You can have anemia and hemochromatosis. Hemochromatosis is rectified by providing cofactors for ceruloplasmin.

 

[kineticz]

I have explained the difference between iron toxicity and iron deficiency. Iron deficiency is not the same as iron bio-unavailability. Rectifying the vitamin deficiency without iron did not work. Iron itself was toxic. The both together was where I finally found my improvements.

Iron retention is caused by high phosphorus. Strengthen your bones and look after your kidneys and the chromatosis readings go down.

 

[tankasnowgod]

You can have anemia and hemochromatosis. Hemochromatosis is rectified by providing cofactors for ceruloplasmin.

You sure can! Pernicious Anemia, Thalassema, Sickle Cell, Transfusional Iron Overload, and Pyridoxine Deficiency Anemia could all be cases for both, and I believe there are other anemias that could qualify as well. Yet, I haven't heard of anyone rectifying hemochromatosis with simply cofactors. From what I understand, phlebotomy or iron chelators are necessary to remove the accumulated iron. I know that Dr. Fachini also treated some high iron patient with a dietary intervention that worked very well.

Hemochromatosis is only rectified (or controlled, in some views) when a patient is successfully de-ironed, and the target is usually Serum Ferritin of 25, with TSAT in the normal range (which I think is 15-35%) on one occasion. Even then, maintenence phlebotomies are usually employed or recommened.

 

[kineticz]

Remember I took high dose MB12 so effectively self-inflicted an iron deficiency by releasing the iron from the liver with nowhere to go/no transferrin. The iron that was removed from the liver by MB12 left the liver iron deficient for the new influx of co-factors.

With a family history of kidney disease such as myself, phosphates cause a B2 deficiency and brittle bones, and B2 deficiency causes low nutrient absorption. A healthy stomach is needed to absorb iron. So while I did have iron retention I have also not absorbed iron from my food during my lifetime, resulting in absolute low iron stores.

Hemochromatosis is caused by kidney disease and low gut function.