Iodine & Estrogen

[dookie]

Looking around online, it appears a few studies show iodine to be anti-estrogenic. And there are quite a few people swearing by Lugol's iodine solution for curing various things.

Anyone have experience with iodine lowering estrogen? Kelp, iodine tablets, Lugol's etc.?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Yes, I've used it in the past, it made my skin very soft and smooth, and I noticed being angrier/more androgenic - possible evidence to anti-estrogen effect.

It is actually quite anti-estrogenic in the breast particularly - good against FBD.

Hell, I've just ordered the 2% Lugol's again , something is urging me to try it again 4 years later.

I've been doing red light therapy for my thyroid - I'm seeing some effect, but I feel sleepy mid-day and have to crash, which happened to me when I was on T3-only supplementation...
That coupled with the fact since starting light therapy I noticed some new tastes in my mouth and I am craving the metallic taste of Lugol's solution... leads me to believe my thyroid is trying
to make more T4 and that I need some iodine.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[Greg says]

Looking around online, it appears a few studies show iodine to be anti-estrogenic. And there are quite a few people swearing by Lugol's iodine solution for curing various things.

Anyone have experience with iodine lowering estrogen? Kelp, iodine tablets, Lugol's etc.?

Been Taking Iodine - Ray Peat Q&A ... conversation about it here.

 

[Makrosky]

@dookie look for some posts on this forum and in peatarian, I wrote about Iodine in many posts. I think you can find info here and there.

@MyUsernameHere and @dookie whatever you do please take at least 200mcg x day of Selenium (selenomethionine) if you are taking Iodine.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

@dookie look for some posts on this forum and in peatarian, I wrote about Iodine in many posts. I think you can find info here and there.

@MyUsernameHere and @dookie whatever you do please take at least 200mcg x day of Selenium (selenomethionine) if you are taking Iodine.

 

[dookie]

OK, so it appears some people on Peatarian did have some anti-estrogenic effects from iodine.

The last post on the Peatarian link which @Greg says sent, the post by user "JuiceUser", got some interesting effects, like he experienced pain on neck: "strange pain on left side of neck yesterday (not really in the thyroid area but more around the vein)."... I found the same neck-vein-pain to coincide with low estrogen symptoms, and has sometimes occurred when I drank 6 or more espresso shots at once.. I actually felt really good mentally while I had that pain.

Can anyone compare iodine to something? Like does it feel as powerful as progesterone? Is it so anti-estrogenic that you can see the edema disappearing in front of your eyes ?

@MyUsernameHere

 

[MyUsernameHere]

What I distinctly remember is that I got similar effects to when I take aspirin (which also lowers estrogen).

Before iodine I was always in a very apathetic state, not happy, not angry, just in some kind of emotionless limbo.

Then when I started supplementing iodine it was as if I finally got back the energy to be angry again. I was walking around the house, cleaning, talking out loud about how dirty everything is and that why the F*** is everything so neglected and how this and that needs to be fixed immediately.

Normally I would be way too tired to even think about chores.

I get a similar effect from aspirin in that it makes me want to say what's on my mind and get angry about things I normally wouldn't invest energy into. It's kind of a good thing compared to where I came from, it made me feel alive again.

I just ordered a bottle of Lugol's 2% so I will see what sort of effect I get this time around. When you consider the success in treating fibrocystic breasts then I would say that it is indeed quite anti-estrogenic. Progesterone is anti-estrogenic as well, but it has the downside of being somewhat anti-androgenic too. I did not experience that with iodine, it seemed to shift me to a very androgenic balance.

 

[dookie]

@MyUsernameHere

I actually get estrogenic symptoms from aspirin, including edema and feeling like crying when I watch movies, so I hope iodine will be different if I try it.

The feeling of wanting to change something, getting more angry, I experience that from coffee, and that for me does seem anti-estrogenic.

Have you tried thyroid? Unfortunately for me, thyroid swells me up.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I tried all sorts of thyroid preparations from T4 and T3 and combo, to NDT. None of them make me feel the way that I should, so I just gave up on thyroid supplements altogether. I'm trying other methods of fixing my own thyroid. I also got estrogenic symptoms from thyroid (puffy nipples).

I remember how much softer and less dry my skin was when I took Lugol's. From what I know iodide is stored in the skin, so it could be that when I started supplementing, my skin was finally getting enough, whereas before on the meager RDA amounts, my thyroid was scooping up everything for itself, leaving nothing for the rest of the body.

Usually the biggest talking point in the iodine debate is when someone hits you with a study about TSH increasing when taking a few mg of iodine. This TSH increase is typically transient, because the thyroid's uptake of iodine increases in proportion with the overall iodine intake(1, 2), and TSH is responsible for the uptake of iodine into the thyroid (3, 4, 5). So this transient increase is to be expected as the TSH facilitates saturation of the thyroid with iodine reserves, which eventually normalizes. An iodine-saturated thyroid is further protected from radioactive elements as well as toxic halogens which can interfere with thyroid hormone production (6, 7).

If TSH and serum thyroid hormones are not considered valid indicators for thyroid status, and the evaluation of biomarkers and symptoms is preferred in thyroid supplementation, then the same criteria should also be applied to the biological effects of iodine supplementation, where rather than invoking the misunderstood Wolff-Chaikoff effect as proof that iodine "suppresses" the thyroid, it should be observed that iodine supplementation is very rarely, if at all, accompanied by a worsening of hypothyroidism or biomarkers, and on the contrary, the majority of supplementers report an increase in energy.

If the best evidence against iodine is a transient increase in TSH, then that proves that iodine is indeed, quite safe.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I know Peat is not a fan of high dose Iodine, although I never quite heard a clear explanation as to why. I just saw an interview with KMUD from last year on this thread- Iodine, Supplement Reactions, Hormones And More - KMUD, 2016-02-19

I came across this quote very early in the interview-

"In the 1980s, I was looking into the iodine nutrition question because I saw some women with breast disease who recovered quickly when they took supplements of kelp or thyroid hormone and the safest thing, I think, is to correct the thyroid problem directly rather than counting on big doses of iodine because the large doses over many years, for example, there are about 70 or more publications looking at iodine intake around the world, over a period of decades, and they see that over half a mg or even especially over 1mg of iodine per day over a population is closely connected with increased risk of thyroiditis and thyroid cancer.

One of the theories of why that happens is that iodine spontaneously reacts, or in the presence of white blood cells their enzymes can cause iodine to react with fatty acids that are unsaturated. And if you’ve heard about the iodine number to describe the degree of unsaturation of the fats - for example, the food oils that are highly unsaturated have a high iodine number. That means the number of molecules of iodine that will be spontaneously absorbed by a certain quantity of the oil, because the iodine attacks the double bonds in the fats and where they lack hydrogen saturation, the iodine fills in like an analogue to the saturated hydrogen content. So there is this tendency of unsaturated fats to react with iodine and when that happens the body can then interpret that as a signal to the thyroid gland, possibly imitating the thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH)."

I'm understanding Peat's thinking on this more now, and I haven't even gone through most of the interview. But I see the mechanism in play now.

 

[dookie]

Albert Szent Györgi used iodine? I found this:

The Nobel laureate Dr. Albert Szent Györgi (1893–1986), the physician who discovered vitamin C, used Iodine freely in his medical practice. The standard dose of potassium iodide given in those days was 1 gram, which contains 770 mg of iodine. Dr. Albert Szent Györgi writes:

“When I was a medical student, iodine in the form of KI (Potassium Iodide) was the universal medicine. Nobody knew what it did, but it did something and did something good. We students used to sum up the situation in this little rhyme: If ye don’t know where, what, and why Prescribe ye then K and I”

From: Breast Cancer Prevention with Iodine Supplementation - Jeffrey Dach MD

 

[dookie]

I know Peat is not a fan of high dose Iodine, although I never quite heard a clear explanation as to why. I just saw an interview with KMUD from last year on this thread- Iodine, Supplement Reactions, Hormones And More - KMUD, 2016-02-19

I came across this quote very early in the interview-

"In the 1980s, I was looking into the iodine nutrition question because I saw some women with breast disease who recovered quickly when they took supplements of kelp or thyroid hormone and the safest thing, I think, is to correct the thyroid problem directly rather than counting on big doses of iodine because the large doses over many years, for example, there are about 70 or more publications looking at iodine intake around the world, over a period of decades, and they see that over half a mg or even especially over 1mg of iodine per day over a population is closely connected with increased risk of thyroiditis and thyroid cancer.

One of the theories of why that happens is that iodine spontaneously reacts, or in the presence of white blood cells their enzymes can cause iodine to react with fatty acids that are unsaturated. And if you’ve heard about the iodine number to describe the degree of unsaturation of the fats - for example, the food oils that are highly unsaturated have a high iodine number. That means the number of molecules of iodine that will be spontaneously absorbed by a certain quantity of the oil, because the iodine attacks the double bonds in the fats and where they lack hydrogen saturation, the iodine fills in like an analogue to the saturated hydrogen content. So there is this tendency of unsaturated fats to react with iodine and when that happens the body can then interpret that as a signal to the thyroid gland, possibly imitating the thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH)."

I'm understanding Peat's thinking on this more now, and I haven't even gone through most of the interview. But I see the mechanism in play now.

But if using it short-term, to lower estrogen load on the body, then would the potential thyroid problem be an issue? Even Peat says: "I saw some women with breast disease who recovered quickly when they took supplements of kelp"

 

[Dave Clark]

The bandwagon that all the doctor, gurus are jumping on when I search the web is that high doses of iodine can aggravate or cause thyroiditis (Hashimotos), so they recommend below 500mcg/day, just the opposite of Brownstein and company. I think it is just individualized because I hear good and bad about both styles of supplementation.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But if using it short-term, to lower estrogen load on the body, then would the potential thyroid problem be an issue? Even Peat says: "I saw some women with breast disease who recovered quickly when they took supplements of kelp"

I guess it even depends how short term. I think Peat may have been okay with super high dose for a couple days in the event of radiation exposure (like those 50-100mg post exposure protocols). I did those higher iodine doses in the past, but have stayed away from them. I was experimenting with them when I had the worst cold hands and feet. I remember it seeming to help, but possibly, it was causal.

I wouldn't do anything more than 1mg now, short of some nuclear accident.

 

[tankasnowgod]

The bandwagon that all the doctor, gurus are jumping on when I search the web is that high doses of iodine can aggravate or cause thyroiditis (Hashimotos), so they recommend below 500mcg/day, just the opposite of Brownstein and company. I think it is just individualized because I hear good and bad about both styles of supplementation.

This made me look around, and I found this article- Natural thyroid and hormone treatment – Why I Discourage High-Dose Iodine

Dr. Christianson does an excellent job summarizing the points of The Iodine Project (from the article)-

1. High-dose iodine helps conditions, such as fibrocystic breast disease; therefore, these doses are necessary for everyone.
2. The Japanese consume much more iodine than Americans and have lower rates of thyroid disease and breast cancer.
3. Iodine status can be determined by 24-hour, urine-iodine levels following a 50,000 mcg oral dose. Those excreting a smaller fraction of the dose may have retained more iodine; therefore, their bodies needed it.
4. Adult humans need 12,500 – 50,000 mcg of iodine for good health.
5. Iodine overdose is not a real phenomenon and the “Wolff-Chaikoff effect” is a delusional construct, resulting from “iodophobic bioterrorism.”
6. The topsoil of the earth was divinely created 6000 years ago with an extremely high level of iodine, which was depleted by the flood of Noah. Human health has been poorer ever since.
7. The current, academic views on iodine are distorted by international, foreign powers in order to make zombies out of Christian America.

First off, points 6 and 7 are at least as bad as the paleo arguments, if not worse. Point 3 is of there own making, dubious at best, and hasn't been used as a test of iodine deficiency by anyone else. It's pretty much the only justification for point 4. They do present an alternative hypothesis for Wolff-Chaikoff (as mentioned by point 5), but again, use Point 3 to justify it. Point 2 is only correlation, not causation. Other dietary and lifestyle factors certainly play a role.

So that pretty much only leaves Point 1. And yeah, high dose iodine can certainly be useful in some situations. But this is no different than Jimmy Moore and the other recent Keto Crazies using the fact that a Keto Diet can be successfully used to treat epileptic kids (usually for only 2-3 years, by the way) to justify their claims that everyone should eat a ketogenic diet for the rest of their lives. It's silly, and freaking dangerous.

When I experimented with the high dose iodine protocol, it was when I brought into the naturalistic fallacy. I was also some NDT and thyroid tissue supplements at the time. Looking back, it makes even less sense. I always had doubts about how any human would get that much iodine, but I did see how the thyroid gland could easily be used as food. I didn't realize at the time that eating milk, seafood, and whole insects would give one a significant dose of thyroid hormones (possibly equivilant to between 1/4 to 1 grain a day). As the liver converts T4 to T3, you might be getting a dose from eating liver too.

 

[dookie]

@tankasnowgod

I think you are getting too hung up on whether the theory-arguments on iodine are correct. We are just looking for ways that help symptoms, in a safe and sustainable way. If a single dose of progesterone can cure epilepsy, then maybe some other things can stop the estrogen in a comprehensive manner, without necessitating continued dosing.

Do you really get estrogen reduction from thyroid? What were your results from using iodine?

The ketogenic diet is idiotic, indeed, it is not sustainable because the stress from being in ketogenesis is cumulative, and in the long run, you damage all tissues. going back to a normal diet, you are worse off than when you started

 

[MyUsernameHere]

@tankasnowgod

I think you are getting too hung up on whether the theory-arguments on iodine are correct. We are just looking for ways that help symptoms, in a safe and sustainable way. If a single dose of progesterone can cure epilepsy, then maybe some other things can stop the estrogen in a comprehensive manner, without necessitating continued dosing.

Do you really get estrogen reduction from thyroid? What were your results from using iodine?

The ketogenic diet is idiotic, indeed, it is not sustainable because the stress from being in ketogenesis is cumulative, and in the long run, you damage all tissues. going back to a normal diet, you are worse off than when you started

The best way to find out if it's going to do you any good is to jump in and try it. Take 200 mcg selenium along with it. Your Vitamin C intake should be covered if you eat plenty of fruits, and maybe also add magnesium chloride to help energy production and assist in elimination of whatever bromide comes out. As long as you take adequate selenium you should be safe from any thyroid hyperplasia or anything like that, and should only experience benefits, if any.

 

[Ron J]

When I did high dose iodine/iodide I got an ear infection. I stopped using it, then started high dose again and got another ear infection. I still got some laying around, but the rubber dropper dried out, so I'm not sure if it's still safe to use.
Edit: That was probably 4 or so years ago. I used it for estrogen among the other alleged benefits.

 

[dookie]

I used it for estrogen among the other alleged benefits.

Noticed any thing related to this? Can you please give some specifics?

 

[Ron J]

Noticed any thing related to this? Can you please give some specifics?

I was looking for gyno improvements while on it. There was no drastic change(I would remember if there was). I don't remember how well it worked for estrogen reduction.