Anyone Else Getting Increased Estrogen From T3/ASPIRIN/CYPRO/PROGESTERONE

[Dr. B]

Bitartrate is anti-metabolic. If you have to supplement choline, I`d avoid that form

its the tartaric acid doing it right, what does the tartaric acid do? i remember reading years ago some bodybuilders use it for potassium its an insanely high source right.
i wonder if its actually toxic due to similar reasons as citric acid in modern times? wiki says tartaric acid is in many fruits... but it has a section on how its made, seems it can be made industrially just like citric acid. good to know, i was only gonna use 275mg choline bitartrate once a week but will probably drop it entirely now and replace with PQQ or something.

 

[ddjd]

Bitartrate is anti-metabolic. If you have to supplement choline, I`d avoid that form

Agreed. This is why I recommend haiduts MITOLIPIN... Saturated Phosphatidylcholine

 

[Dr. B]

Agreed. This is why I recommend haiduts MITOLIPIN... Saturated Phosphatidylcholine

mate werent you and someone else saying you got manboobs and other effects from that. what happened, was the cause something else.
or do you have to use mitolipin without consuming any fat, in order to avoid the sides?
is dietary phosphatidylcholine usually unsaturated? like in eggs, milk. of course krill oil is unsaturated

 

[ddjd]

High vitamin D levels essential for tolerating T3??

In this Danny Roddy podcast with Haidut, he says at 1:50:00 in, the following: "vitamin D apparently is one of the key factors in allowing t3 to activate the thyroid receptor and basically cause many of these genomic effects, the transcription effects, that are relevant and expected to happen...

raypeatforum.com

 

[ddjd]

mate werent you and someone else saying you got manboobs and other effects from that. what happened, was the cause something else.
or do you have to use mitolipin without consuming any fat, in order to avoid the sides?
is dietary phosphatidylcholine usually unsaturated? like in eggs, milk. of course krill oil is unsaturated

I'm not focusing on choline anymore. The central issue seems to be cortisol.

As soon as I increase my cortisol levels all my estrogenic, water retention issues go away.

The issue is that all of these substances are depleting my cortisol

 

[Peater]

How do you test insulin resistance/pancreas function?

 

[Spartan300]

I'm not focusing on choline anymore. The central issue seems to be cortisol.

As soon as I increase my cortisol levels all my estrogenic, water retention issues go away.

The issue is that all of these substances are depleting my cortisol

Curious what you are doing to increase cortisol and how you came to the conclusion?

How is your sleep since?

 

[Dr. B]

I'm not focusing on choline anymore. The central issue seems to be cortisol.

As soon as I increase my cortisol levels all my estrogenic, water retention issues go away.

The issue is that all of these substances are depleting my cortisol

what substances did you use to raise cortisol?
what effects do you get from pregnenolone or progesterone?
i think cortisol could have anti estrogenic effects? but it has effects of its own too. anti androgenic effects too. it can cause testicle and other organ shrinkage.

 

[Vileplume]

Hey @ddjd, did you ever figure out what causes this bloating from T3?

I get the same bloating and frequent urination from cynomel, tyronene, and Tyromax—but not cynoplus.

 

[ddjd]

Hey @ddjd, did you ever figure out what causes this bloating from T3?

I get the same bloating and frequent urination from cynomel, tyronene, and Tyromax—but not cynoplus.

hey vileplume, we're a rare breed! im still working it out but im now convinced its something to do with the CBS/BHMT pathways. for whatever reason, t3, like aspirin, progesterone and lots of peat substances puts a lot of stress on these pathways.

for instance, here are some substances that support these pathways and they help me to tolerate t3 a lot better:

- L-Serine / Phosphatidylserine (collagen/gelatin also a good source of l-serine)
- zinc
- tmg (trimethylglycine)
- b6
- dmae
- gluathione (i use setria brand)
- choline (saturated form from idealabs is safest to use i think)

all of these will open up the bhmt/cbs pathways and should help you to tolerate t3 a lot better.

let me know how you get on.

 

[Vileplume]

@ddjd interesting, I have never even heard of that pathway before. Thanks. I’ll look into it and let you know if I discover anything to add.

Oddly enough, caffeine doesn’t seem to cause the same bloating. Dark roasts do, but not medium roasts—I can drink as much as I want with no issue.

 

[brightside]

hey vileplume, we're a rare breed! im still working it out but im now convinced its something to do with the CBS/BHMT pathways. for whatever reason, t3, like aspirin, progesterone and lots of peat substances puts a lot of stress on these pathways.

for instance, here are some substances that support these pathways and they help me to tolerate t3 a lot better:

- L-Serine / Phosphatidylserine (collagen/gelatin also a good source of l-serine)
- zinc
- tmg (trimethylglycine)
- b6
- dmae
- gluathione (i use setria brand)
- choline (saturated form from idealabs is safest to use i think)

all of these will open up the bhmt/cbs pathways and should help you to tolerate t3 a lot better.

let me know how you get on.

Why do you think it's a good idea to focus on BHMT instead of the regular path through MTR? This would imply that you have problems with MTR, and should focus on that instead..

 

[ddjd]

Why do you think it's a good idea to focus on BHMT instead of the regular path through MTR? This would imply that you have problems with MTR, and should focus on that instead..

BHMT converts homocysteine directly in to methionine. Specifically it removes a methyl group from TMG (trimethylglycine) and tacks it on to homocysteine to form methionine and DMG (dimethylglycine). Stimulating a genetically normal BHMT system will partially ameliorate the adverse affects of other Methyl Cycle challenges. For example, if we cannot convert homocysteine in to methionine because a MTHFR defect renders us deficient in methyl-folate, or because an MTR up regulation or MTRR down regulation leaves us short in methyl-B12, we can bypass these blockages by stimulating BHMT to convert homocysteine directly in to methionine

 

[brightside]

BHMT converts homocysteine directly in to methionine. Specifically it removes a methyl group from TMG (trimethylglycine) and tacks it on to homocysteine to form methionine and DMG (dimethylglycine). Stimulating a genetically normal BHMT system will partially ameliorate the adverse affects of other Methyl Cycle challenges. For example, if we cannot convert homocysteine in to methionine because a MTHFR defect renders us deficient in methyl-folate, or because an MTR up regulation or MTRR down regulation leaves us short in methyl-B12, we can bypass these blockages by stimulating BHMT to convert homocysteine directly in to methionine

Yes, I know. But BHMT is a backup, without the folate cycle running you will get impaired BH4 recycling. I'm not too exited about using backup systems, but I understand that they may be very necessary.

Do you know that MTR is copper dependent?

Spoiler

Both animal and human data suggest that methionine synthase also requires copper, implying that the enzyme may be involved in the pathogenesis of CDM. Another enzyme involved in the methylation cycle, S-adenosylhomocysteine hydrolase, may be regulated by copper.

Copper deficiency myelopathy and subacute combined degeneration of the cord - why is the phenotype so similar? - PubMed

Copper deficiency myelopathy (CDM) is an increasingly recognised mimic of subacute combined degeneration (SCD) of the cord due to cobalamin (vitamin B(12)) deficiency. It has been suggested that copper deficiency induces myelopathy through dysfunction of cytochrome oxidase, which is known to be...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is MTRR downregulation actually a common thing?

Also, have you tried high dose (at least 5mg) of methylfolate or folinic acid?

Sorry If these are repetitive questions, I don't know where else you mentioned these details..

 

[ddjd]

Yes, I know. But BHMT is a backup, without the folate cycle running you will get impaired BH4 recycling. I'm not too exited about using backup systems, but I understand that they may be very necessary.

Do you know that MTR is copper dependent?

Spoiler

Both animal and human data suggest that methionine synthase also requires copper, implying that the enzyme may be involved in the pathogenesis of CDM. Another enzyme involved in the methylation cycle, S-adenosylhomocysteine hydrolase, may be regulated by copper.

Copper deficiency myelopathy and subacute combined degeneration of the cord - why is the phenotype so similar? - PubMed

Copper deficiency myelopathy (CDM) is an increasingly recognised mimic of subacute combined degeneration (SCD) of the cord due to cobalamin (vitamin B(12)) deficiency. It has been suggested that copper deficiency induces myelopathy through dysfunction of cytochrome oxidase, which is known to be...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is MTRR downregulation actually a common thing?

Also, have you tried high dose (at least 5mg) of methylfolate or folinic acid?

Sorry If these are repetitive questions, I don't know where else you mentioned these details..

Many people with CBS and BHMT abnormalities will also bear MTHFR (compromising methyl-folate generation) and MTRR (compromising methyl-B12) abnormalities, and thus they will need and benefit from corresponding supplementation (with these molecules that you are having trouble making). However, if you supplement heavily with methyl-folate, methy-B12, or BH4, before we have the CBS/BHMT physiology under control (until you have reduced your sulfate status such that glutathione and cysteine assimilation improves) then you will be subjecting yourself to a “sulfite surge”. You will feel great for 1-2 days, as beneficial neurotransmitters are generated. Methyl-folate and methyl-B12 detox pathways will then open up, creating toxic intermediates that cannot be metabolized further due to the block in glutathione utilization – and then you will feel horrible. You need to resist the temptation to treat MTHFR/MTRR abnormalities until CBS/BHMT are under control.

 

[brightside]

Many people with CBS and BHMT abnormalities will also bear MTHFR (compromising methyl-folate generation) and MTRR (compromising methyl-B12) abnormalities, and thus they will need and benefit from corresponding supplementation (with these molecules that you are having trouble making). However, if you supplement heavily with methyl-folate, methy-B12, or BH4, before we have the CBS/BHMT physiology under control (until you have reduced your sulfate status such that glutathione and cysteine assimilation improves) then you will be subjecting yourself to a “sulfite surge”. You will feel great for 1-2 days, as beneficial neurotransmitters are generated. Methyl-folate and methyl-B12 detox pathways will then open up, creating toxic intermediates that cannot be metabolized further due to the block in glutathione utilization – and then you will feel horrible. You need to resist the temptation to treat MTHFR/MTRR abnormalities until CBS/BHMT are under control.

Hmm, fair enough. Tell me more, don't spare the details. Do you mean you will oxidize or conjugate the available GSH? Why not add B2/B3/Se then? I find Se immensely powerful for GSH production.

 

[BearWithMe]

hey vileplume, we're a rare breed! im still working it out but im now convinced its something to do with the CBS/BHMT pathways. for whatever reason, t3, like aspirin, progesterone and lots of peat substances puts a lot of stress on these pathways.

for instance, here are some substances that support these pathways and they help me to tolerate t3 a lot better:

- L-Serine / Phosphatidylserine (collagen/gelatin also a good source of l-serine)
- zinc
- tmg (trimethylglycine)
- b6
- dmae
- gluathione (i use setria brand)
- choline (saturated form from idealabs is safest to use i think)

all of these will open up the bhmt/cbs pathways and should help you to tolerate t3 a lot better.

let me know how you get on.

Dude, you are well of knowledge. Great posts.

The substances supporting CBS/BHMT patways seems to be precisely the substances often recomended for liver health and repair.

Have you tried UDCA, silymarin or digestive bitters? Do you feel good on caffeine and thiamine?

Also interesting that many of the substances are popular "nootropics"

 

[ddjd]

still trying to figure this out.....

i now strongly suspect vitamin d is the key co-factor

High vitamin D levels essential for tolerating T3??

I always feel extremely awful whenever I take vitamin D. (topically or orally does not matter) I don‘t really take it anymore at all but I remember a few months ago where I tried topical D for half a week and after the first dose I felt so damn hypothyroid all of a sudden. (I was already...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Dr. B]

still trying to figure this out.....

i now strongly suspect vitamin d is the key co-factor

High vitamin D levels essential for tolerating T3??

I always feel extremely awful whenever I take vitamin D. (topically or orally does not matter) I don‘t really take it anymore at all but I remember a few months ago where I tried topical D for half a week and after the first dose I felt so damn hypothyroid all of a sudden. (I was already...

raypeatforum.com

I did use vitamin D3 at the same time as standalone T3 and still had major issues. I dont know if there was any estrogenic things but i had all the high cortisol symptoms from T3. Muscle wasting, hair loss, even weight gain. Lower appetite, more fatigue.

 

[ddjd]

I did use vitamin D3 at the same time as standalone T3 and still had major issues. I dont know if there was any estrogenic things but i had all the high cortisol symptoms from T3. Muscle wasting, hair loss, even weight gain. Lower appetite, more fatigue.

Were you taking it with plentiful magnesium and k2mk4?