Stopping Estrogen: Mission Impossible

[dookie]

Solution to my estrogen issues: high dose vitamin A (50,000iu+)
Also helpful: aspirin, b6, b1, b2, eggshell and prunella vulgaris (self-heal) tea (weird one, but it reduces serum estradiol)

Can you describe how quickly you notice that dose to reduce estrogen? Do you notice effects at a lower dose of Vitamin A?

Prunella vulgaris tea, that's an interesting one, hadn't heard that one for reduction of estrogen. Do you feel its effects too, or is it just the blood value that it reduces?


I've got 15,000 IU tablets of carlson lab retinyl palmitate sitting in my medicine drawer, I might try some experimentation with them :)

 

[XPlus]

#1 is sun
I can control estrogen for 2-3 days with just 30mins of sunshine.
Not even 8hrs of incandescent light can do this in my experience.
Light increases progesterone keeping its ratio to estrogen in check and Vitamin D produced from exposure to sunlight can assist opposing estrogen.
I don't think the sun's anti-stress effect is fully understood. Potency implies that there's more to it.

#2 clean gut
Less poison from food and bacterial activity. Thus, lower serotonin and estrogen. Better detoxification function.


#3 Vitamin E
It's potent. Two drops around on nipples can take care of estrogen for few hours. Large doses can take care of it for a day or two.

#4 good sleep
Those folks stuck in the hamster wheel of life know the difference between a full-night rest and a bedtime quickie.


I've seen little anti-estrogenic effects from other fat-souble vitamins and aspirin. I don't see them as part of an affective standalone therapy. Ceproheptadine is defintely more effective (by loweing histamine and sertonin) but I haven't tried it in large doses to judge.
Although Ray suggests that Naringenin works as an AI, I think fibre in OJ can offset this action by overfeeding bacteria.
Progestrone in excess can be problematic, especially for men. Unlike the sun it doesn't increase testosterone ruling it out as a main therapy method.
Carrot salad I think is good as a maintenance strategy but more powerful cleansing might be required in some cases.

The best strategy would be to tune in to how one feels when there's extra estrogen. Using light or some vitamin E at the first sign of an estrogen surge could smooth the overall pattern of stress induced by excess estrogen overtime. Adequate sleep and recovery from daily stressors allow for better capacity to handle stress. Building systematic health gradually like people suggested here is a better idea compared to trying something more dramatic.

 

[Orion]

#1 is sun
I can control estrogen for 2-3 days with just 30mins of sunshine.
Not even 8hrs of incandescent light can do this in my experience.

Are we talking full body exposure, or just in the eyes? thanks

 

[mayweatherking]

Progesterone and pregnenlone seem to be powerful for it.... thyroid converts cholesterol to progesterone would probably be the best bet.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Just echoing what many have already written here as these are the things that have helped me the most, they are so important that I cannot compromise on any of them:

Lifestyle modification/stress reduction

Daily sunshine or red light sauna

Keeping gut and liver VERY clean

Losing excess body fat

Lots of vitamin E

30,000 I.U. of vitamin A (I use two of the Carlson brand you have on hand)

Magnesium

Progest-E & Thyroid meds, although both of these have been reduced as I heal

Perseverance and Patience

 

[Giraffe]

I moved the posts about different brands of the fat-soluble vitamins to a new thread.

Vitamin A And E: Brands, Effects Noticed | Ray Peat Forum

 

[XPlus]

Are we talking full body exposure, or just in the eyes? thanks

Full body exposure.

 

[docall18]

Ya i also find estrogen very difficult to control. Things like pregnenolone, dhea, thyroid, b6, progesterone, caffeine etc etc all increase my estrogen. Anything that increases metabolism either causes estrogen release or just over taxes the liver.

An alternative view to the estrogen problem is that people with this issue are copper toxic. Increased metabolism releases copper from tissues which accumulates due to lowered metabolism. Estrogen and copper are synergistic, high copper leads to high estrogen. I have found that targeting copper very beneficial at lowering estrogen. Molybdenum, vitamin C and some zinc are very beneficial in keeping bloating etc under control. Also, keeping away from high copper foods such as liver, chocolate etc.

Conversely anti-aromatase supps such as arimidex (at huge doses) didnt help lower my estrogen, indicating something else is at play (namely copper).

ARL : Insight Into Copper Elimination
COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME

 

[dookie]

Ya i also find estrogen very difficult to control. Things like pregnenolone, dhea, thyroid, b6, progesterone, caffeine etc etc all increase my estrogen. Anything that increases metabolism either causes estrogen release or just over taxes the liver.

An alternative view to the estrogen problem is that people with this issue are copper toxic. Increased metabolism releases copper from tissues which accumulates due to lowered metabolism. Estrogen and copper are synergistic, high copper leads to high estrogen. I have found that targeting copper very beneficial at lowering estrogen. Molybdenum, vitamin C and some zinc are very beneficial in keeping bloating etc under control. Also, keeping away from high copper foods such as liver, chocolate etc.

Conversely anti-aromatase supps such as arimidex (at huge doses) didnt help lower my estrogen, indicating something else is at play (namely copper).

ARL : Insight Into Copper Elimination
COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME

Very interesting. Did you have your copper levels tested? I was thinking about trying arimidex, but with the potential liver side-effects, and now your post that it may not even help..... definitely reconsidering it

Molybdenum, vitamin C and zinc - do you mean in form of supplements, or just from foods? What doses did you use?

 

[XPlus]

Ya i also find estrogen very difficult to control. Things like pregnenolone, dhea, thyroid, b6, progesterone, caffeine etc etc all increase my estrogen. Anything that increases metabolism either causes estrogen release or just over taxes the liver.

An alternative view to the estrogen problem is that people with this issue are copper toxic. Increased metabolism releases copper from tissues which accumulates due to lowered metabolism. Estrogen and copper are synergistic, high copper leads to high estrogen. I have found that targeting copper very beneficial at lowering estrogen. Molybdenum, vitamin C and some zinc are very beneficial in keeping bloating etc under control. Also, keeping away from high copper foods such as liver, chocolate etc.

Conversely anti-aromatase supps such as arimidex (at huge doses) didnt help lower my estrogen, indicating something else is at play (namely copper).

ARL : Insight Into Copper Elimination
COPPER TOXICITY SYNDROME

Peat talked about copper deficiency before but not excess.
I presume it's less likely for someone to get copper excess.
If they do, isn't high metabolism supposed to put something like copper to good use quickly.
How does that synergise with estrogen.
I personally have low copper but don't see how it can be good in controlling estrogen.
Also, I'd would be as wary of vitamin C and Zinc supplements as I am of excess estrogen.

 

[dookie]

Just an update on my estrogen lowering 'battle'. I've tried topical vitamin E in various forms, without much change.

One thing I found to be somewhat anti-estrogenic, despite some side-effects, is the nicotine patch. Even the lowest dose, like 10 mg/day, shows some clear anti-estrogenic effects. I use it once per week, because it does have some side-effects..

 

[Elephanto]

You should try I3C, it's very effective. In dose of 6-7mg/kg every men and women in some study had a substantial decrease of serum estradiol and was shown estrogen to be metabolized in a less/non-cancerous form.

Vit E, Zinc, Selenium, Vit a, Vit K, Methylene Blue, Caffeine, Vit B1 are good but I've been taking them for 1+ year and i3C made a difference that these substances couldn't (except maybe Methylene Blue, it's pretty potent).

I gotta agree with the comment about copper, it also made a huge difference for me. If you're high in copper you should see more red color in your hair, and taking molybdenum for a while will remove that so that it's a good indicator that you can stop taking it. It amazes me how Peat overlooks the copper problem, it's known to be high in prostate cancer and breast cancer, it's easily the biggest determinant of your estrogen status.

 

[honeybee]

You should try I3C, it's very effective. In dose of 6-7mg/kg every men and women in some study had a substantial decrease of serum estradiol and was shown estrogen to be metabolized in a less/non-cancerous form.

Vit E, Zinc, Selenium, Vit a, Vit K, Methylene Blue, Caffeine, Vit B1 are good but I've been taking them for 1+ year and i3C made a difference that these substances couldn't (except maybe Methylene Blue, it's pretty potent).

I gotta agree with the comment about copper, it also made a huge difference for me. If you're high in copper you should see more red color in your hair, and taking molybdenum for a while will remove that so that it's a good indicator that you can stop taking it. It amazes me how Peat overlooks the copper problem, it's known to be high in prostate cancer and breast cancer, it's easily the biggest determinant of your estrogen status.

What brand of ic3 are you using? Are you male or female?

 

[Elephanto]

What brand of ic3 are you using? Are you male or female?

Male. The brand is Absorb Health.

 

[tara]

It amazes me how Peat overlooks the copper problem, ...

I believe Peat has mentioned that studying the effects foods have on ceruloplasmin levels would be useful. I think this is because ceruloplasmin is metabolically supportive use of copper. Adequate zinc is important for good copper metabolism. Peat recommends eating oysters as one of the best food sources of zinc.

 

[lindsay]

In my particular case, I had a really difficult time with estrogen for awhile. I had an oophorectomy in 2013 and that really messed up my hormonal status. It was bad beforehand, obviously. But the stress of the surgery made me a mess and that's what led me to RP. It's now 2016 and I have had one other surgery at the end of 2014 (appendicitis - serotonin overload). I've learned a lot the hard way and what I've learned is that it takes time. It took years for me to mess up my body with under-nutrition and over-exercise, and it's taken me 3 years to get to a place where I am truly feeling better - happier, healthier, more well rounded, etc. I have my moments, sure (like this past weekend when I took way too much Taurine and caused endotoxin/serotonin overload), but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and learn from my mishaps.

What I think really helped for me was taking time away from hyper-focusing on my health and instead, listening to my body. I continued taking thyroid, but decided to listen to what my body wanted to eat, and cut down my supplement usage. I still take a few things - progesterone (topically only now), pregnenolone, cascara as needed, ox bile (I don't have a gallbladder), coffee (I'm an addict and never will I stop drinking coffee). And I might get beat up for this one, but I had a good success with Nascent Iodine and lost a lot of the "estrogen" dominant weight on my mid-section and breast area - although, I also started applying progesterone and orange oil topically around the same time, so it's hard to tell). Both made me feel a whole lot better, but I stopped taking Iodine recently. I also engaged in a photo project, which kept me active and engaged my creative brain - that was key for me, I think. I especially enjoyed taking images while jumping - something about letting the body go like that is super fun and therapeutic.

I also stopped swimming and now ride my bike casually and do a little yoga - I like being outside, so getting out as much as possible really helps me. Anyhow, it's been 3 years since my worst point. A year and a half since my second worst point, and now I am feeling much better. Not perfect, but better. I would really suggest trying a new activity to engage the brain - learn a new language, take up knitting, learn to make masks - that's been my recent endeavor Whatever will trigger the dopamine in the brain will definitely help overall. Just some thoughts :) And I hope you will find what works for you!!

 

[dookie]

You should try I3C, it's very effective. In dose of 6-7mg/kg every men and women in some study had a substantial decrease of serum estradiol and was shown estrogen to be metabolized in a less/non-cancerous form.

Vit E, Zinc, Selenium, Vit a, Vit K, Methylene Blue, Caffeine, Vit B1 are good but I've been taking them for 1+ year and i3C made a difference that these substances couldn't (except maybe Methylene Blue, it's pretty potent).

I gotta agree with the comment about copper, it also made a huge difference for me. If you're high in copper you should see more red color in your hair, and taking molybdenum for a while will remove that so that it's a good indicator that you can stop taking it. It amazes me how Peat overlooks the copper problem, it's known to be high in prostate cancer and breast cancer, it's easily the biggest determinant of your estrogen status.

How do you judge if there is red color in hair, in someone who has dark hair?

Do you think the molybdenum would show instant relief of estorgen symptoms, or will it take a while to "excrete" the excess copper?

 

[Parsifal]

Peat talked about copper deficiency before but not excess.
I presume it's less likely for someone to get copper excess.
If they do, isn't high metabolism supposed to put something like copper to good use quickly.
How does that synergise with estrogen.
I personally have low copper but don't see how it can be good in controlling estrogen.
Also, I'd would be as wary of vitamin C and Zinc supplements as I am of excess estrogen.

Yeah, I don't know why some people talk about copper toxicity so much.

 

[mayweatherking]

I agree 150% amd I think no one around really has an answer to the question. I think @Brian is probably the closest to the problems. we are missing some vital things like magnesium or zinc and its making more problems.

I took aspirin and it 100% caused my nipples to grow bigger. The answer most people say is "eat more". Okay.. I eat more milk and my scalp gets itchy. The answer there? Not enpugh calories and you are hypo.

Here's something interesting.. I just bought a bottle of liquid zinc and it's a taste test. Supposedly if you put it in your mouth and dont taste anything.. you are zinc deficient. Wel guess what.. I didnt taste anything. Tasted like water then a slight flavor came after like 10 seconda so im probably moderate deficient? I dk.

Im pretty much betting on two things right now. Im either severely depleted in zinc or magnesium and I'm supplementing both. I think I could use more glycine so im gojng to get that to up my production of bile acids.

Outside of that.. the answer is not eat more.. im actually growing a gut now too.. I think its have the right minerals. Did you know you lose 5mg of zinc in every ejaculation? Something to think about. The stress of sex/masturbation probably burns magnesium as well.

Thats what I am doing so far for me. Also bowel movements make me feel amazing.. another +1 for more magnesium. I think your body has enough calcium via leeching from bones if your prolactin is up.. I dk about mag, does it leech from bones too?

 

[XPlus]

I agree 150% amd I think no one around really has an answer to the question. I think @Brian is probably the closest to the problems. we are missing some vital things like magnesium or zinc and its making more problems.

That is only reflective of your own state of affairs.
I've come to a point where I can tell what makes things better or worse for me.
Allow yourself some time to tune in to your system and figure out what exactly works and what doesn't.
It could be chronic lack of sleep, light, hormones or nutrients. It could be digestive problems, cold tempreatures - anything and any combination of things, really.
Sometimes it gets too out of control for me, it only settles after a good dose of cyproheptadine, a rich meal and some 12-hrs of sleep.
And if you take something that doesn't seem to have any effect on your system whatsoever, you probably don't need it.