Stopping Estrogen: Mission Impossible

[dookie]

I myself, along with other people I know, both personally and over the internet, have many challenges with lowering estrogen.

In my opinion, Peat's ideas behind the causes of degenerative diseases are spot on: estrogen, cortisol, serotonin are probably the main players in any disease, with things like nitric oxide, histamine, etc. being secondary things which result from excesses in those stress main hormones.

The problem comes when trying to lower those stress hormones, it doesn't seem to be so easy. In my experience, controlling or lowering cortisol is relatively easy, with things like aspirin, orange juice, antihistamines, etc. being rather effective. Serotonin control is a bit more difficult. But the most difficult hormone to control seems to be estrogen.

I know that Peat's views and writings are centered around the toxicity of estrogen, and he seems to be right about all the damages it causes, but his practical recommendations don't seem to be so effective for some people. There were some posts made on the old Peatarian forum (now beesandbutterflies) where people were complaining that they actually got estrogen symptoms from many of the anti-estrogen/aromatase inhibitor supplements (one of those posts was called something like 'side effects on RP diet'). I have experienced the same to some degree.

Here's a list of supplements several people have noticed cause estrogenic symptoms (when I say symptoms I mean things like water retention, bloating, puffiness, along with other main estrogenic signs):

Aspirin; Thyroid (t3, t4, combination, or dessicated) Pregnenolone; DHEA; Progesterone; Vitamin E; Niacinamide; Caffeine (In myself, I have noticed caffeine reduces estrogen initially, but in the long run seems to increase it); Antibiotics; Antihistamines; Methylene blue; Milk and dairy;..

Anyway, the point of this post is not to create an argument over whether those supplements can or cannot increase estrogen. It just happens that some people experience estrogenic symptoms very easily, even from supposed anti-aromatase/anti-estrogen supplements. The point of this post is to figure out a solution for people who cannot seem to get estrogen under control, even with the main Peat supplements.

If you have trouble with estrogen, or have found some solution to your estrogen issues, please chime in. I'm currently experimenting with Calcium Glucarate, which is a supplement that's supposed to help excretion of estrogen. Feel free to PM me too.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think a lot of people don't realize how much time it takes. You could experiment with pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors to see if what you feel is really what you're thinking.

 

[dookie]

I have heard from people who kept taking thyroid or progesterone, or another anti-aromatase supplement, for months, only getting fatter, more bloated, more fatigued, etc. with each passing week. I talked to a person from the old peatarian forum, and even 500 mg aspirin would cause him to have estrogenic effects lasting for many days. Other people take a single dose of a few mcg's of T3 and it takes weeks for them to excrete the resulting water retention it causes

When you've experienced high estrogen, you know what it feels like. Also, women know from their menstrual cycle the symptoms of high estrogen.

Peat recommends against pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors, as they can cause a lot of side effects.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Peat recommends against pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors, as they can cause a lot of side effects.

But you're here arguing against all his other recommendations. Bear with me here...

 

[Renaiscience_Man]

I talked to a person from the old peatarian forum, and even 500 mg aspirin would cause him to have estrogenic effects lasting for many days.

How is aspirin causing estrogenic effects? It's used to lower estrogen.

 

[dookie]

But you're here arguing against all his other recommendations. Bear with me here...

I'm looking for safer, more physiological anti-estrogen therapies than aromatase inhibitors. Although if I don't find anything, I may end up trying a pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitor

A case of anastrazole-related drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis. - PubMed - NCBI - A case of anastrazole-related drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis.
Anastrozole-related acute hepatitis with autoimmune features: a case report. - PubMed - NCBI - Anastrozole-related acute hepatitis with autoimmune features: a case report.

I don't want to argue against his recommendations; his recommended anti-estrogen therapies seem to work for the majority of the people. But there is a small minority for whom these supplements have these paradoxical effects, which I'm trying to understand, and to find a solution for.

 

[Such_Saturation]

What I'm saying is only try them once to see what it feels like to be "low estrogen".

 

[dookie]

How is aspirin causing estrogenic effects? It's used to lower estrogen.

Honestly, I have no clue as to what the scientific explanation is. In theory aspirin is this perfect aromatase inhibitor, in vitro and in vivo. In practice, you get experiences such as the one I mentioned

 

[Nighteyes]

Hmm too much focus on supplementation perhappenchance? I have had the most success with plenty of oysters (zink) and maintaining daily bowel movements. For the latter, cooked bamboo shoots help a lot. Of course I dont know your/their gut function, but my point is: sub-optimal gut function -> less estrogen excretion. Oh and protein shakes seem to help for me. Whey isolate protein shakes with every meal..

 

[dookie]

Hmm too much focus on supplementation perhappenchance? I have had the most success with plenty of oysters (zink) and maintaining daily bowel movements. For the latter, cooked bamboo shoots help a lot. Of course I dont know your/their gut function, but my point is: sub-optimal gut function -> less estrogen excretion. Oh and protein shakes seem to help for me. Whey isolate protein shakes with every meal..

Awesome. Thanks for the ideas.

I will try oysters, and , protein shakes :)

 

[thegiantess]

I'm a little confused/not convinced that what you're experiencing is estrogen symptoms. I mean, if you think about or
dwell on something long enough you can become convinced of anything. Meaning, if you have been convinced all along that estrogen is your problem bc of xyz symptoms, and those symptoms don't go away when you do things that should make them go away, doesn't that make you wonder if it's not estrogen after all? Are you going by any blood tests or just using how you feel as a guide? I realize Peat thinks that estrogen blood tests aren't the most reliable, but at the very least you would be able to track changes over time. I think a lot of people can become bogged down in one idea and then end up down a rabbit hole. Often what you think is wrong with you is not at all, but you have gone so far down the hole, there is no other option but to keep going. Ya know?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Whey is a supplement...

 

[michael94]

My experimentation way back ( before Peat ) with aromasin was not great. It made me super horny and have very good erections but didnt deal with any of the symptoms I think a lot of people would attribute to estrogen. Aromasin is generally regarded as the safest of the AIs. So while it might be estrogen related, AIs don't seem to be a panacea in that regard.

 

[Peata]

I have heard from people who kept taking thyroid or progesterone, or another anti-aromatase supplement, for months, only getting fatter, more bloated, more fatigued, etc. with each passing week. I talked to a person from the old peatarian forum, and even 500 mg aspirin would cause him to have estrogenic effects lasting for many days. Other people take a single dose of a few mcg's of T3 and it takes weeks for them to excrete the resulting water retention it causes

When you've experienced high estrogen, you know what it feels like. Also, women know from their menstrual cycle the symptoms of high estrogen.

Peat recommends against pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors, as they can cause a lot of side effects.

I am also wondering about whether these people had estrogen problems before starting the supplement. I have tried many supplements that haven't helped my estrogen dominance, but I know they were not the cause as I had the problem beforehand. I have a thread here somewhere called "need help lowering estrogen even more". Not sure if you've seen it, but it might offer some ideas.

Right now the best thing I have tried is Swanson's Maximum Gamma Tocopherols. I'm just taking one per day but I started on them with 2 per day. I could tell a difference. I just am trying to not go through the bottle so fast (have another on the way), so I'm taking one per day for now even though my body seems to be wanting two. It just seems like such a high dose, not sure if that would thin blood too much or something (esp. since I'm taking other things that could potentially affect platelets). Progest E was a big help as long as I stayed on it and I had to take really high amounts -hundreds of mg. per day, and also went through it fast. I'm not taking that now, as the last two bottles I've used seemed off and didn't have the same effect it used to. I've had limited success with Vitex, B6, but they stopped working eventually. I'm sticking with this Vitamin E.

 

[goodandevil]

I am also wondering about whether these people had estrogen problems before starting the supplement. I have tried many supplements that haven't helped my estrogen dominance, but I know they were not the cause as I had the problem beforehand. I have a thread here somewhere called "need help lowering estrogen even more". Not sure if you've seen it, but it might offer some ideas.

Right now the best thing I have tried is Swanson's Maximum Gamma Tocopherols. I'm just taking one per day but I started on them with 2 per day. I could tell a difference. I just am trying to not go through the bottle so fast (have another on the way), so I'm taking one per day for now even though my body seems to be wanting two. It just seems like such a high dose, not sure if that would thin blood too much or something (esp. since I'm taking other things that could potentially affect platelets). Progest E was a big help as long as I stayed on it and I had to take really high amounts -hundreds of mg. per day, and also went through it fast. I'm not taking that now, as the last two bottles I've used seemed off and didn't have the same effect it used to. I've had limited success with Vitex, B6, but they stopped working eventually. I'm sticking with this Vitamin E.

Have you tried haidut's progesterone. It appears more economical. Any source of xeneetrogens? It's taken me a year almost to get rid of plasticware.

 

[Tommix]

What is your weight? Men have to be lean. If you fat those fat cells is nice estrogen factories. Of course high E2 = high fat, that's the cycle of estrogen
If you start using aromataze inhibitors and it wont help-that means you have low T [and you have if you have high E2] and it's not a cause of your E2 high levels.
What im saying you first have to identify from where that estrogen may come. There are gazillion places from were we can get estrogens.

 

[dookie]

I'm a little confused/not convinced that what you're experiencing is estrogen symptoms. I mean, if you think about or
dwell on something long enough you can become convinced of anything. Meaning, if you have been convinced all along that estrogen is your problem bc of xyz symptoms, and those symptoms don't go away when you do things that should make them go away, doesn't that make you wonder if it's not estrogen after all? Are you going by any blood tests or just using how you feel as a guide? I realize Peat thinks that estrogen blood tests aren't the most reliable, but at the very least you would be able to track changes over time. I think a lot of people can become bogged down in one idea and then end up down a rabbit hole. Often what you think is wrong with you is not at all, but you have gone so far down the hole, there is no other option but to keep going. Ya know?

I only measured estradiol (E2) blood level after experimenting with thyroid, and it did increase, although not above the medical range of normal.

I developed gynecomastia on several "anti-estrogen" supplements. Other people have experienced this too

I heard from a woman who tried progesterone, thyroid and aspirin (separately, not in combination), and she says they all caused her the typical estrogenic symptoms she is familiar with from her cycle. She got so bloated she couldn't fit into her jeans, she was emotional, would sleep all day, couldn't remove her wedding ring from her finger due to the increased water retention

 

[dookie]

Whey is a supplement...

Maybe less risky to experiment with than thyroid, progesterone, or aromatase inhibitors :)

 

[skycop00]

I'm looking for safer, more physiological anti-estrogen therapies than aromatase inhibitors. Although if I don't find anything, I may end up trying a pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitor

A case of anastrazole-related drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis. - PubMed - NCBI - A case of anastrazole-related drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis.
Anastrozole-related acute hepatitis with autoimmune features: a case report. - PubMed - NCBI - Anastrozole-related acute hepatitis with autoimmune features: a case report.

I don't want to argue against his recommendations; his recommended anti-estrogen therapies seem to work for the majority of the people. But there is a small minority for whom these supplements have these paradoxical effects, which I'm trying to understand, and to find a solution for.

What I'm saying is only try them once to see what it feels like to be "low estrogen".

I have been on Testosterone Replacement both self treated and physician supervised for 13 years. I have used Arimidex (Anastrozole and 2 other AI's), What I have found is that once I cleaned up my liver with Phase 1 and 2 needed supplementation and stopped alcohol I could use only Calcium D Glucarate (500mg x 3) 2X per week and 1 I3C capsule to control the E2. I have it dialed in between 20-30ng.dl and all is well in the land and NO arimidex anymore. Just wanted to share...

 

[Stilgar]

Solution to my estrogen issues: high dose vitamin A (50,000iu+)
Also helpful: aspirin, b6, b1, b2, eggshell and prunella vulgaris (self-heal) tea (weird one, but it reduces serum estradiol)