My high estrogen won't drop. Help

[Guacamayo]

My estrogen has been high for years now.

My testosterone has now tanked over the past year or so, and my hypothyroidism is supposedly under control with large amounts of NDT and T3...but I still feel hypo.

My minerals look fine, but I do have VERY high levels of copper and mercury.

My cortisol is chronically high.

My bowels and digestion have gotten so bad I need to take laxatives almost every day now...And the food I am taking isn't digested properly.

My bloodwork shows really low RBC and protein levels like those of a vegan. I don't know what's causing it...but even when I had good bowel movements for a period of around a month, I still had symptoms of high estrogen whenever a bout of constipation would come up...

I've tried everything I can think of to drop my chronically high estrogen levels and it won't work:

Diet (carrots and mushrooms plus low starch and removing PUFA), vit E, pregnanolone, progesterone, plus some other things I can't remember right now.

I'm going to give DIM and Calcium D Glucarate a try, as mentioned here: Can’t seem to come out of estrogen dominance. Tried everything already | Page 2 | Ray Peat Forum

Is there anything else I'm missing?

I've tried Tongkat Ali and some other testosterone building natural extracts to boost T levels but I never really saw any long-term improvements after using them for around a month.

 

[TheBeard]

High e2 as per bloodwork or as per feeling?

Try a round of aromasin?

 

[Guacamayo]

Bloodwork.

Latest saliva hormonal test shows sky-high e2 and testosterone just above minimum.

Cortisol is slightly elevated throughout the day.

Is aromasin for lowering e2 or boosting T?

Because I need to do both.

 

[Maljam]

What's your diet? You mentioned carrots, mushrooms, low starch and removing pufa above but it doesn't tell us much.

 

[Guacamayo]

2 grated carrots in high quality olive oil every morning with some salt and vinegar. Then I'll have 2 ladle fulls of soup. Sometimes I have non-dairy fruit smoothies with mangos/bananas/whatever other fruit and chocolate coconut water. But lately my stomach has gotten so painful that I'm skipping breakfast. It feels like food just sits there and takes ages to digest. And then it just keep sitting there, causing a cascade of constipation symptoms and horrible fybromyalgia and estrogen-dominant symptoms. Coffee takes the pain away.

Apples between meals as snacks. I also snack on a bunch of dates and dried apricots. Medjoul/safawi/ajwa are my favourite. I either stuff them with goat's cheese or eat them as is. Safawi taste great with candied vienna almonds inside. And several times a week I'll snack on some chocolates with my coffee.

Lunch and dinner is usually low-fat organic lamb/beef/chicken with either mashed cooked vegetables or soups. I'll usually also have 1 egg per day with one of the meals. 150grams of whatever meat for lunch and 100g for dinner.

Soups are on a bone-broth base or if they're with water then I add collagen...powdered gelatin sucked. They're either vegetable soups (with beetroot, cabbage, onion, celery, carrot, tomato, etc.) with 1 or 2 potatoes in the entire pot (which usually last for 4-5 days), or they're lentil soups.

And I have 1 coffee after breakfast and 1 coffee after lunch. Sugar/maple syrup and milk in both. If I feel horrible at night, I'll have a cup of black tea with milk and honey and that takes away the fybromyalgia pain for a bit...affects sleep though so I don't drink it that often...vodka helps too but that destroys my sensitive stomach.

I'll have around 50ml soy milk every couple of days in the take-away espressos I get.

And on the days I take a vit c laxative (super-high dose like 10g or whatever) I take coconut ice cream in my coffee to offset the beating my stomach took from the massive Vit C dose.

And one other thing, I do much better on non-animal sources of fat - e.g. olive oil as opposed to butter, and coconut ice cream as opposed to normal ice cream.

I also take one tablespoon of olive oil with each of my meals. When I tried to substitute it for butter or ghee, it just felt like it sat in my stomach.

And the milk I use in coffee is un-homogenized organic full fat. Sometimes I'll have low-fat unhomogenized organic. And it's always cow's milk.

 

[theantagonist]

You might benefit from exemestane.

Haidut also wrote an article, i believe it talks about a French study using +250mg of pregnenolone to inhibit estrogen synthesis

---------------------------


Pregnenolone Is As Potent As Progesterone As An (irreversible) Aromatase Inhibitor

Progesterone does not need an introduction here and most people are likely aware of its antiestrogenic effects. A few years ago, I posted a thread with an old French study showing that a 500mg daily dose pregnenolone completely blocked estrogen's effects - an effect identical to what progesterone does.

Pregnenolone Is A (functional) Estrogen Antagonist


The study below shows that both pregnenolone and progesterone are equally potent as aromatase inhibitors in human cells. While they did not inhibit baseline aromatase activity, both steroids blocked completely the induction of aromatase by FSH and testosterone.

This is a situation seen in most older people - i.e. induction of aromatase way beyound baseline levels, possibly due to elevated cortisol/TSH/FSH/prolactin/etc. The most effective concentration for either steroid was about 30 uM/L, which should be achievable with a dose of 100mg-150mg of either steroid. Perhaps more interestingly, the study shows that a treatment of several days is needed before estrogen synthesis is inhibited. For the first 3 days of exposure, the cells actually produced more estrogen than cells not exposed to pregnenolone/progesterone. And in cells with activated aromatase exposed to lower concentrations of progesterone there was much less aromatase inhbition.

This may explain the pro-estrogenic effects some people have reported when using progesterone in lower doses or for shorter periods of time. It also suggests that for people with strong estrogen dominance that has continued for some time, higher doses progesterone and longer usage may be needed in order to block aromatase activity.

Perhaps most importantly, the study shows that the aromatase inhibition by progesterone is irreversible, and I see not reason why the effects of pregnenolone would not be the same.

-------------------------

"...The inhibitory effects of progesterone appeared irreversible when cells were exposed to progesterone for 2 or 3 days (Fig. 2, lower and middle panels). Secretion of estradiol continued to be significantly lower after the cells were no longer exposed to progesterone than secretion by control cultures. Cells that were exposed to 0.1 or 1 pg progesterone for only 1 day (Fig. 2, upper panel) secreted higher amounts of estradiol during subsequent culture in the absence of progesterone than did cultures exposed to progesterone for 2 or 3 days. However, there was still a persistent dose-dependent decrease in the capacity of the cells to produce estradiol in comparison with control cultures except on the last day of culture."

 

[TheBeard]

Bloodwork.

Latest saliva hormonal test shows sky-high e2 and testosterone just above minimum.

Cortisol is slightly elevated throughout the day.

Is aromasin for lowering e2 or boosting T?

Because I need to do both.

Aromatase inhibitor.
Will lower e2 and as a consequence increase test and free test.

VERY important that you use aromasin (exemestane) and NOT ANY other aromatase inhibitor, as it's steroidal.

 

[L_C]

My estrogen has been high for years now.

My testosterone has now tanked over the past year or so, and my hypothyroidism is supposedly under control with large amounts of NDT and T3...but I still feel hypo.

My minerals look fine, but I do have VERY high levels of copper and mercury.

My cortisol is chronically high.

My bowels and digestion have gotten so bad I need to take laxatives almost every day now...And the food I am taking isn't digested properly.

My bloodwork shows really low RBC and protein levels like those of a vegan. I don't know what's causing it...but even when I had good bowel movements for a period of around a month, I still had symptoms of high estrogen whenever a bout of constipation would come up...

I've tried everything I can think of to drop my chronically high estrogen levels and it won't work:

Diet (carrots and mushrooms plus low starch and removing PUFA), vit E, pregnanolone, progesterone, plus some other things I can't remember right now.

I'm going to give DIM and Calcium D Glucarate a try, as mentioned here: Can’t seem to come out of estrogen dominance. Tried everything already | Page 2 | Ray Peat Forum

Is there anything else I'm missing?

I've tried Tongkat Ali and some other testosterone building natural extracts to boost T levels but I never really saw any long-term improvements after using them for around a month.

For how long have you been doing this? I have started with progesterone four months ago (I cycle it two weeks on/off) and still have estrogen symptoms. It's improving but it definitely takes time to completely clear estrogen out of the body.

 

[theantagonist]

For how long have you been doing this? I have started with progesterone four months ago (I cycle it two weeks on/off) and still have estrogen symptoms. It's improving but it definitely takes time to completely clear estrogen out of the body.

Maintenance dose of progesterone might not be enough to overthrow estrogen dominance.

See my post above, might be worth trying.

 

[Guacamayo]

I've been trying progesterone and pregnenolone for around a year. First progesterone - did nothing. Regardless of whether I was taking 3mg or 15mg a day.

Pregnenolone I tried for a week in doses starting from 30mg to over 500mg a day and it made me feel really weird (in a bad way) so I stopped.

I don't know how long Preg needs to be taken in those big doses before it starts to lower e2 though...if a week isn't enough to feel any positive effects.

@TheBeard I'm in Australia right now...how do I get aromasin? Seems like something I'd need a doctor's script for.

 

[Hans]

My estrogen has been high for years now.

My testosterone has now tanked over the past year or so, and my hypothyroidism is supposedly under control with large amounts of NDT and T3...but I still feel hypo.

My minerals look fine, but I do have VERY high levels of copper and mercury.

My cortisol is chronically high.

My bowels and digestion have gotten so bad I need to take laxatives almost every day now...And the food I am taking isn't digested properly.

My bloodwork shows really low RBC and protein levels like those of a vegan. I don't know what's causing it...but even when I had good bowel movements for a period of around a month, I still had symptoms of high estrogen whenever a bout of constipation would come up...

I've tried everything I can think of to drop my chronically high estrogen levels and it won't work:

Diet (carrots and mushrooms plus low starch and removing PUFA), vit E, pregnanolone, progesterone, plus some other things I can't remember right now.

I'm going to give DIM and Calcium D Glucarate a try, as mentioned here: Can’t seem to come out of estrogen dominance. Tried everything already | Page 2 | Ray Peat Forum

Is there anything else I'm missing?

I've tried Tongkat Ali and some other testosterone building natural extracts to boost T levels but I never really saw any long-term improvements after using them for around a month.

The fat soluble vitamins are good aromatase inhibitors. Inflammation and insulin resistance potently promote aromatase so getting those under control can help a lot.
Calcium d glucarate can help with estrogen detox from the liver and cardamoms can help with estrogen excretion through the gut and prevent reabsorption.

Since you copper and mercury are very high, I'd bet your zinc is on the low side. Zinc can help detox heavy metals and balance the copper and lower estrogen.

 

[Guacamayo]

Yeah I've been supplementing zinc for a while. Hasn't worked. I do around 30mg of zinc per day as zinc carnosine.

I'd try a few oysters every day but because of my mercury toxicity I'm not going anywhere near them for the time being.

I'll give cardamom a go...I'll start adding more of it to my food.

 

[TheBeard]

I've been trying progesterone and pregnenolone for around a year. First progesterone - did nothing. Regardless of whether I was taking 3mg or 15mg a day.

Pregnenolone I tried for a week in doses starting from 30mg to over 500mg a day and it made me feel really weird (in a bad way) so I stopped.

I don't know how long Preg needs to be taken in those big doses before it starts to lower e2 though...if a week isn't enough to feel any positive effects.

@TheBeard I'm in Australia right now...how do I get aromasin? Seems like something I'd need a doctor's script for.

tiromel.ws

 

[theotokos]

Diet wise, I would increase protein intake and eggs and would do less carbs, liquids and olive oil. Talking from personal experience, with that amount of fiber and olive oil I get constipated for sure. Oils have the opposite effect than animal fats for me, which have helped tremendously with my chronic constipation and overall energy levels.

Have you tried an easier to digest breakfast? Like scrambled eggs and cooked pears or apples with honey for example.

 

[youngsinatra]

How's your vitamin D status?
High dose vitamin E could be beneficial in my experience.

 

[redsun]

My estrogen has been high for years now.

My testosterone has now tanked over the past year or so, and my hypothyroidism is supposedly under control with large amounts of NDT and T3...but I still feel hypo.

My minerals look fine, but I do have VERY high levels of copper and mercury.

My cortisol is chronically high.

My bowels and digestion have gotten so bad I need to take laxatives almost every day now...And the food I am taking isn't digested properly.

My bloodwork shows really low RBC and protein levels like those of a vegan. I don't know what's causing it...but even when I had good bowel movements for a period of around a month, I still had symptoms of high estrogen whenever a bout of constipation would come up...

I've tried everything I can think of to drop my chronically high estrogen levels and it won't work:

Diet (carrots and mushrooms plus low starch and removing PUFA), vit E, pregnanolone, progesterone, plus some other things I can't remember right now.

I'm going to give DIM and Calcium D Glucarate a try, as mentioned here: Can’t seem to come out of estrogen dominance. Tried everything already | Page 2 | Ray Peat Forum

Is there anything else I'm missing?

I've tried Tongkat Ali and some other testosterone building natural extracts to boost T levels but I never really saw any long-term improvements after using them for around a month.

Copper is high shown on what kind of test? Can you post it here? High copper can cause high estrogen but as hans said zinc will help. It may take some time though but you need to deal with mercury toxicity as well otherwise you will probably always have problems. It could be causing the majority of problems so you need to chelate it. It will severely inhibit your antioxidant capacity negatively affecting metabolism.

Mercury poisoning - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"The primary mechanism of mercury toxicity involves its irreversible inhibition of selenoenzymes, such as thioredoxin reductase (IC50 = 9 nM).[39] Although it has many functions, thioredoxin reductase restores vitamins C and E, as well as a number of other important antioxidant molecules, back into their reduced forms, enabling them to counteract oxidative damage.[40] Since the rate of oxygen consumption is particularly high in brain tissues, production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) is accentuated in these vital cells, making them particularly vulnerable to oxidative damage and especially dependent upon the antioxidant protection provided by selenoenzymes. High mercury exposures deplete the amount of cellular selenium available for the biosynthesis of thioredoxin reductase and other selenoenzymes that prevent and reverse oxidative damage,[41] which, if the depletion is severe and long lasting, results in brain cell dysfunctions that can ultimately cause death."

 

[Guacamayo]

I had a DMPS test done to check my mercury levels.

It showed 450 ng/g (or micrograms - I'm not sure what that little symbol is called). Reference range is under 0.8.....so 450 times greater than normal apparently.

I had the DMPS test done after I did a hair mineral analysis test and that showed mercury so high that it was completely off the chart.

Also, that DMPS showed that I had really high levels of Barium, Cesium, and Thallium. Lead was also high.

Theotokos, scrambled eggs are not an easy to digest breakfast. lol. Anything high protein I consider heavy.

I usually eat soups for breakfast, sometimes cereal, and on rare occasions I do eat some boiled apples - I'll try them in some honey this morning.

These are foods that are liquidy and won't sit for ages in my stomach - all types of eggs just sit there.

My vitamin D status is low-ish. It's in the normal range, but on the low end.

And that didn't change much even when I was getting out for an hour a day under the sun (shirtless), and supplementing 1,000 IU of vit D.

I'll start doing vit E each day now - before I supp'd it once every couple of days because of potential side effects.

I'll also start increasing my Vit C intake - camu camu and orange juice, but that's more for the antioxidant effect...

Does oxidation increase estrogen?

 

[JKX]

Your gut is the main problem. Until you fix this the burden on your liver will remain and your ability to detox estrogen will remain poor.

As an intermediate anything that antagonises or reduces endotoxin should help. B vitamins will aid estrogen removal. Perhaps also using some glycine and taurine to help your liver might also be something to try. Taurine will increase bile and improve digestion.

I'd also try a digestive enzyme supplement with betaine hcl for a month or 2. The alternative would be thyroid.

Stay away from DIM.

What laxatives are you using? I'd drop them all for farmalabor well aged cascara. An 8 week course should work wonders.

 

[redsun]

I had a DMPS test done to check my mercury levels.

It showed 450 ng/g (or micrograms - I'm not sure what that little symbol is called). Reference range is under 0.8.....so 450 times greater than normal apparently.

I had the DMPS test done after I did a hair mineral analysis test and that showed mercury so high that it was completely off the chart.

Also, that DMPS showed that I had really high levels of Barium, Cesium, and Thallium. Lead was also high.

Theotokos, scrambled eggs are not an easy to digest breakfast. lol. Anything high protein I consider heavy.

I usually eat soups for breakfast, sometimes cereal, and on rare occasions I do eat some boiled apples - I'll try them in some honey this morning.

These are foods that are liquidy and won't sit for ages in my stomach - all types of eggs just sit there.

My vitamin D status is low-ish. It's in the normal range, but on the low end.

And that didn't change much even when I was getting out for an hour a day under the sun (shirtless), and supplementing 1,000 IU of vit D.

I'll start doing vit E each day now - before I supp'd it once every couple of days because of potential side effects.

I'll also start increasing my Vit C intake - camu camu and orange juice, but that's more for the antioxidant effect...

Does oxidation increase estrogen?

Nothing you do will help much until you chelate the toxic metals out of your body.

 

[Guacamayo]

Cascara is actually the one laxative that doesn't work on me, even in doses of up to 2g...Senna, high dose vitamin C, stewed prunes with dried figs and some pharmacy stuff all work.

I've been chelating for close to a year now...symptoms have only worsened since then.

I'm visiting a few specialists this week. I'll post the feedback I get from them here and see if any other ideas rise to the top.