Should I supplement thyroid or progesterone first? Or both at the same time?

[curious_anthro]

I suspect I may be suffering from low gonadal function, perhaps also adrenal hyperactivity, which is driving infertility, cystic acne, hirsutism and poor sleep. After reading through many posts on the forum, I am now considering thyroid supplementation but not sure if it is a good idea... a bit of background:

- I am a 28 year old female and maybe 10-15 lbs overweight (always been very naturally lean in my life prior to onset of hormonal issues).
- Most likely subclinical hypothyroid (temps and pulses low, esp pulse usually around high 50s to low 60s).
- Blood and DUTCH tests show low FSH, estrogen, progesterone. Normal 24hr cortisol. TSH 2.17 and normal prolactin, I know these do not show the full picture, gives some indication.
- Currently supplementing thorne k2, topical vitamin D (10,000 IUs), 1 tsp eggshell calcium, jigsaw adrenal cocktail, 1,000mg magnesium glycinate. Eat a RP diet minus milk but eat cheese daily.

Every time I use anything that lowers estrogen (aspirin, vitamin E, beef liver, cyproheptadine, vitamin k2) I get a terrible backlash in terms of estrogenic symptoms (breakouts, bloating, facial swelling, insomnia, depression). I tried progesterone in vitamin e before, 100-150 mg daily during luteal phase, but again, terrible symptoms especially my skin. Ray peat has said "Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol".

Anyone with similar experience have success with thyroid supplementation? Wondering if I should try thyroid first then try progesterone again? Or I have seen some people say they use both at the same time. It is difficult to find advice helpful for a young woman on this forum as the large majority are men or menopausal/post-menopausal women. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Peatful]

Experimenting trumps everything.

And I also have strong opinions and or suggestions regarding this.

You are clearly in a stressed state.
What is the cause of this?

 

[curious_anthro]

Thanks for your reply :) I am open to your opinions/suggestions!

Yes I agree, however, I would rather gather as much information as I can before I experiment partly so I can make an informed decision about what supplements to purchase and partly because I am scared of getting myself into a worse place (maybe I should be more brave). I am considering @haidut Tyromix but haven't seen many women on here report trying it.

The causes of my stress are many but I suppose that is the case for a lot of people here. Emotional trauma, long term birth control use, past extreme dieting/exercise... oh and I am currently doing a PhD which is quite stressful. I go to counseling regularly and have a great support system but I know all of those things I listed have done a number on my system.

 

[Peatful]

Thanks for your reply :)

Yes I agree, however, I would rather gather as much information as I can before I experiment partly so I can make an informed decision about what supplements to purchase and partly because I am scared of getting myself into a worse place (maybe I should be more brave). I am considering @haidut Tyromix but haven't seen many women on here report trying it.

The causes of my stress are many but I suppose that is the case for a lot of people here. Emotional trauma, long term birth control use, past extreme dieting/exercise... oh and I am currently doing a PhD which is quite stressful. I go to counseling regularly and have a great support system but I know all of those things I listed have done a number on my system.

Well - you answered both of your own questions beautifully.

Super smart to be hesitant regarding thyroid or even progesterone in a stressed state.
“in the absence of good metabolism, anything can be dangerous” - a butchered Peat quote.

so the “extra” 10-15 pounds are protective. They want to be there to help you survive.

Feed yourself.
Nourish yourself.
Rest- then rest some more.

Then you can move to the next steps of healing.
But if you’re in a stressed high cortisol/low thyroid state. And a high estrogen/ low progesterone state: you will never truly heal.

So emotionally you sound great. Intellectually you’re strong.
But physically/ Physiologically you need rest and nourishment.
Hate to say- no actually- love to say- there is no quick fix. No way to supplement yourself into health.
But when you do nourish and rest it’s true healing- and nothing is better.

 

[Makrosky]

.

 

[Makrosky]

I deleted my two posts. I answered before reading your whole post sorry.

What about trying pregnenolone?

 

[lampofred]

As far as I can remember, Peat has always said it's better to use thyroid to make your own progesterone than to supplement progesterone.

 

[curious_anthro]

Well - you answered both of your own questions beautifully.

Super smart to be hesitant regarding thyroid or even progesterone in a stressed state.
“in the absence of good metabolism, anything can be dangerous” - a butchered Peat quote.

so the “extra” 10-15 pounds are protective. They want to be there to help you survive.

Feed yourself.
Nourish yourself.
Rest- then rest some more.

Then you can move to the next steps of healing.
But if you’re in a stressed high cortisol/low thyroid state. And a high estrogen/ low progesterone state: you will never truly heal.

So emotionally you sound great. Intellectually you’re strong.
But physically/ Physiologically you need rest and nourishment.
Hate to say- no actually- love to say- there is no quick fix. No way to supplement yourself into health.
But when you do nourish and rest it’s true healing- and nothing is better.

Thank you, I really value what you’ve said and see the truth in it.

I’ve been on this RP inspired journey for 1.5 years now, which has felt like a long time to go without any real progress however I’m sure it’s not very long compared to the years of damage.
One thing I didn’t mention, and the main driving force behind my current search for additional things I can do to help, is that my husband and I want children and I’m currently not fertile.

I 100% want to be in the best, healed state possible before having a child so I’m not in a total rush but I hear people say progesterone or thyroid was key in helping them get over the “hump” in their journey and wonder if that could be something for me. But I know nothing heals like time and nourishment.

 

[curious_anthro]

I deleted my two posts. I answered before reading your whole post sorry.

What about trying pregnenolone?

I have considered it but I still don’t understand it enough to see that it would be helpful. It seems like there is no telling what it will convert to downstream? I’ve also noticed most people take pregnenolone with other supps like progesterone or DHEA not just by itself

 

[curious_anthro]

As far as I can remember, Peat has always said it's better to use thyroid to make your own progesterone than to supplement progesterone.

Yes I think I remember that too. But then have also heard him say progesterone with a bit of thyroid might be helpful... but I think that was in the context of combating unwanted side effects from progesterone use

 

[Peatful]

Thank you, I really value what you’ve said and see the truth in it.

I’ve been on this RP inspired journey for 1.5 years now, which has felt like a long time to go without any real progress however I’m sure it’s not very long compared to the years of damage.
One thing I didn’t mention, and the main driving force behind my current search for additional things I can do to help, is that my husband and I want children and I’m currently not fertile.

I 100% want to be in the best, healed state possible before having a child so I’m not in a total rush but I hear people say progesterone or thyroid was key in helping them get over the “hump” in their journey and wonder if that could be something for me. But I know nothing heals like time and nourishment.

Painful heavy periods?
No periods?
Or not ovulating?

Progesterone is wonderfully therapeutic.
But to put either into a body that is stressed will only cause more chaos.

Remember- this is a supplement heavy forum. Nothing wrong with that.
Peat however is very conservative with supplements.

 

[mrchibbs]

Considering your age and your symptoms including acne, hirsutism etc. which are basically the equivalent to what happens in young men in the same age group, I think specialized nutrition is your best bet.

Adding good quality oysters, shellfish and liver should help all of your symptoms. Cream of mushroom (white button) soup and carrot salad with olive oil daily are great for opposing estrogen.

Progesterone and thyroid will for sure help, but nutrition should be the basic step.

 

[Makrosky]

I have considered it but I still don’t understand it enough to see that it would be helpful. It seems like there is no telling what it will convert to downstream? I’ve also noticed most people take pregnenolone with other supps like progesterone or DHEA not just by itself

Nope, a lot of people use pregnenolone by itself. I use it and in my case is the only non-problematic hormone. I have been using it for many years and hasn't failed ever. It is a lifesaver, really. Downstream, it has a tendency to convert to protective steroids that the body needs, including progesterone. In fact most of it will go to progesteronw. But it feels different and tje body can control the rate of conversion. I think trying minute doses cannot hurt and you will see immediately if it helps.

For instance progesterone seems to be thyromimetic but in my experience pregnenolone isn't.

But keep reading what others have to say, you will get lots of useful advice. Also haidut's threads on pregnenolone are gold. Many of them are somehow related to its relation to androgens, which don't apply to you but have tons of useful info.

 

[Makrosky]

By the way, what is your doctor's diagnosis when he sees the test results you posted?

 

[curious_anthro]

Painful heavy periods?
No periods?
Or not ovulating?

Progesterone is wonderfully therapeutic.
But to put either into a body that is stressed will only cause more chaos.

Remember- this is a supplement heavy forum. Nothing wrong with that.
Peat however is very conservative with supplements.

Strangely, I do not have many period symptoms such as heavy bleeding or cramping but I am not ovulating (based on tracking temperature, using ovulation test strips and confirmed low progesterone). My cycles are also really long, 40ish days.

I have been working on the nutrition part for a while now. I cannot tolerate milk sadly and I really wish I could as I think it would help with nutrient levels. Every time I drink it my skin breaks out all over and I get digestive upset.

I am also doing a lot of gut work. Taking a bit of HCL and digestive enzymes, cascara and raw carrot salad every day. That has helped a bit with constipation but any of the other symptoms. I don't know if it is possible but I sometimes feel like I have low estrogen symptoms too and things that drive estrogen down seem to make things worse.

"The amount of estrogen in tissue is decreased when progesterone is abundant. In the absence of progesterone, tissues retain estrogen even when there is little estrogen circulating in the blood." - Ray Peat

I wonder if that is why I feel both estrogen dominance and low estrogen symptoms... my hypothesis is that using progesterone "liberated" estrogen from the tissues which flooded my system that is slow and sluggish due to low thyroid function. Hence wondering about supplementing both thyroid and progesterone

 

[curious_anthro]

Considering your age and your symptoms including acne, hirsutism etc. which are basically the equivalent to what happens in young men in the same age group, I think specialized nutrition is your best bet.

Adding good quality oysters, shellfish and liver should help all of your symptoms. Cream of mushroom (white button) soup and carrot salad with olive oil daily are great for opposing estrogen.

Progesterone and thyroid will for sure help, but nutrition should be the basic step.

Yes I have been working on the nutrition part for a while now. Making sure I hit all of the fat soluble vitamins apart from vitamin E as it makes me break out. But I eat lots of butter and cheese. Supplement topical vitamin D and also take the adrenal cocktail for whole food vitamin C, sodium and potassium.

I took oysters for a few months (fresh and dessicated) and didn't notice any difference. Cannot tolerate liver fresh or dessicated

 

[curious_anthro]

Nope, a lot of people use pregnenolone by itself. I use it and in my case is the only non-problematic hormone. I have been using it for many years and hasn't failed ever. It is a lifesaver, really. Downstream, it has a tendency to convert to protective steroids that the body needs, including progesterone. In fact most of it will go to progesteronw. But it feels different and tje body can control the rate of conversion. I think trying minute doses cannot hurt and you will see immediately if it helps.

For instance progesterone seems to be thyromimetic but in my experience pregnenolone isn't.

But keep reading what others have to say, you will get lots of useful advice. Also haidut's threads on pregnenolone are gold. Many of them are somehow related to its relation to androgens, which don't apply to you but have tons of useful info.

Many thanks, that is helpful. I will definitely look more into it.

 

[Filosofy]

I and many others have gotten stuck in the whack-a-mole of supplementation to battle stress, and in the end, the stress around this was perhaps the worst of all.

If you are working on sixth gear all the time the supplements will not help either, not even thyroid, and even if it will, it will just prolong the pending implosion.

I had to give up many pursuits I thought were pivotal to my existence before I could do any real healing. Then, of course, I found out that these pursuits were very trivial in the larger scheme of things.

Easier said than done, of course. Still has to be said.

Otherwise, try self-massage and acupressure, easily googlable for hormonal issues.

 

[Peatful]

You are 28. You will recover well IF you give your body what it needs.

Your body is working for you- not against you. It wants health and fertility and restorative sleep etc.

The extreme diet and exercise, combined with the BCP got you here.

Whatever 1.5 year inspired diet you are currently on- Is not restoring you.

With a mindset of an extreme dieter and extreme exerciser - I doubt you’re eating enough to rebuild.
You are clearly in a very hypothyroid stressed state.

No need to answer publicly- just reflect.
How is your relationship with food?
How is your relationship to your body?

Best to you.

 

[NodeCerebri]

In the same boat as you, 28yo/f. Been battling with similar stuff and I would like to share some of my experiences and thoughts with you which may help you.

First thing I want to give you a hint of: focus on your gut and liver. Eat regularly, and eat anti-inflammatory foods. This can be different for everyone. This means you still have to experiment which can take a long time and many attempts to find the right spot for you. You will have to also find the perfect macronutrient ratios for you in every meal. Again, this can look very different, but it is best to learn to listen to your body.

Second, you may have to regulate your glucose metabolization. When going down the rabbit hole, the root cause for hirsutism is a disturbed glucose metabolization. This means you will have to look for missing pieces (=nutrient deficiencies) in glucose metabolization and counteract those. This can also mean many things besides your current hormonal status, like b vitamin deficiencies. Also, do you experience hirsutism intermittently or only during certain days of your cycle? This can say a lot too, besides knowing the fat distribution in your body.

Adding T3 therapy to T4 made a huge difference for me. It really took the burden off me on cellular level and I could also get huge effects from smaller doses which made me think that it could be too much for usually healthy people without hashimotos. That is why I would advice to maybe try other approaches first for some time, but consider T3 as the last resort maybe? If you could get your body to produce progesterone innately through proper glucose metabolization and enough T4 to T3 conversion, you would start to ovulate again and some time after, the hirsutism and other symptoms would also be gone, as it did in my case.

Hope this helps :)