Dhea Or Pregnenolone For Chronically Fatigued Male?

[MightyFall]

I recently visited an 'adrenal fatigue specialist' that ordered a cortisol saliva test, which indicated low cortisol (it suggested normal cortisol levels but my practitioner argued that the references were changed by the clinic only recently, and were indeed low) and borderline low DHEA. He recommended the conventional approach, licorice root to increase cortisol levels and DHEA to address the low count.

I only took a small dose of DHEA today (5 mg) and reacted quite badly, experiencing severe cognitive impairment, headaches and tiredness. It eventually subsided after a few hours, but during those exhausting few hours I managed to frantically research several different hormonal replacement approaches to adrenal fatigue and found that pregnenoline and progesterone were safer alternatives to DHEA supplementation and other hormonal replacement approaches.

I have already ventured into many different paths to treat my fatigue, from getting thyroid tests (which indicated optimal function), dietary changes (yes, including high calorie intake and increasing/decreasing fat consumption), getting enough sleep, a course of probiotics, eliminating stress and spending too much money on mineral and vitamin supplements to replenish whatever depleted nutrient in my body.

I'm a young male with various adrenal fatigue symptoms that have debilitated me for over two years and greatly impacted the quality of my life. I have gained in excess of over 50 lbs, was forced to quit many academic commitments, comprising my education and became clinically depressed. Advice appreciated.

 

[answersfound]

Cyproheptadine.

 

[haidut]

I recently visited an 'adrenal fatigue specialist' that ordered a cortisol saliva test, which indicated low cortisol (it suggested normal cortisol levels but my practitioner argued that the references were changed by the clinic only recently, and were indeed low) and borderline low DHEA. He recommended the conventional approach, licorice root to increase cortisol levels and DHEA to address the low count.

I only took a small dose of DHEA today (5 mg) and reacted quite badly, experiencing severe cognitive impairment, headaches and tiredness. It eventually subsided after a few hours, but during those exhausting few hours I managed to frantically research several different hormonal replacement approaches to adrenal fatigue and found that pregnenoline and progesterone were safer alternatives to DHEA supplementation and other hormonal replacement approaches.

I have already ventured into many different paths to treat my fatigue, from getting thyroid tests (which indicated optimal function), dietary changes (yes, including high calorie intake and increasing/decreasing fat consumption), getting enough sleep, a course of probiotics, eliminating stress and spending too much money on mineral and vitamin supplements to replenish whatever depleted nutrient in my body.

I'm a young male with various adrenal fatigue symptoms that have debilitated me for over two years and greatly impacted the quality of my life. I have gained in excess of over 50 lbs, was forced to quit many academic commitments, comprising my education and become clinically depressed. Advice appreciated.

If your cortisol is low DHEA is probably not good for you. It is a powerful glucocorticoid antagonist and also an inhibitor of 11b-HSD1. So, it will push your cortisol levels even lower.
Pregnenolone or progesterone may work, but may also suppress cortisol. So, you can try and see how it affects you.
If you agree with your doctor that your cortisol is indeed low then thyroid supplement is probably your best bet. Licorice is estrogenic and may backfire badly. Cortisol production is dependent on thyroid hormone so taking some may spur the conversion from cholesterol. Speaking of which, how are your cholesterol levels?

 

[MightyFall]

I recently visited an 'adrenal fatigue specialist' that ordered a cortisol saliva test, which indicated low cortisol (it suggested normal cortisol levels but my practitioner argued that the references were changed by the clinic only recently, and were indeed low) and borderline low DHEA. He recommended the conventional approach, licorice root to increase cortisol levels and DHEA to address the low count.

I only took a small dose of DHEA today (5 mg) and reacted quite badly, experiencing severe cognitive impairment, headaches and tiredness. It eventually subsided after a few hours, but during those exhausting few hours I managed to frantically research several different hormonal replacement approaches to adrenal fatigue and found that pregnenoline and progesterone were safer alternatives to DHEA supplementation and other hormonal replacement approaches.

I have already ventured into many different paths to treat my fatigue, from getting thyroid tests (which indicated optimal function), dietary changes (yes, including high calorie intake and increasing/decreasing fat consumption), getting enough sleep, a course of probiotics, eliminating stress and spending too much money on mineral and vitamin supplements to replenish whatever depleted nutrient in my body.

I'm a young male with various adrenal fatigue symptoms that have debilitated me for over two years and greatly impacted the quality of my life. I have gained in excess of over 50 lbs, was forced to quit many academic commitments, comprising my education and become clinically depressed. Advice appreciated.

If your cortisol is low DHEA is probably not good for you. It is a powerful glucocorticoid antagonist and also an inhibitor of 11b-HSD1. So, it will push your cortisol levels even lower.
Pregnenolone or progesterone may work, but may also suppress cortisol. So, you can try and see how it affects you.
If you agree with your doctor that your cortisol is indeed low then thyroid supplement is probably your best bet. Licorice is estrogenic and may backfire badly. Cortisol production is dependent on thyroid hormone so taking some may spur the conversion from cholesterol. Speaking of which, how are your cholesterol levels?

I've already supplemented with T4 and natural desiccated thyroid - with both aggravating my fatigue and inducing this 'paradoxical' reaction. Are there any safer adaptogens or other ways to increase cortisol?

 

[MightyFall]

Cyproheptadine.

Why?

 

[jyb]

If your cortisol is low DHEA is probably not good for you. It is a powerful glucocorticoid antagonist and also an inhibitor of 11b-HSD1. So, it will push your cortisol levels even lower.
Pregnenolone or progesterone may work, but may also suppress cortisol. So, you can try and see how it affects you.

Haidut, how do you understand low cortisol in disease? When I read Peat I only see high cortisol in disease, a consequence of energy deficiency. If I extrapolate I get low cortisol to mean abundance of energy.

 

[jyb]

Cyproheptadine.

Why?

It may not seem intuitive given that its also known to make you sleep, but a very low dose can also help clear a foggy mind and improve focus in my experience.

I have felt the anti-stress of pregnenolone. So maybe it does reduce cortisol. But its possible that it helps the foggy mind by doing more than merely lowering cortisol.

I think both cypro and pregne are good pharma for a foggy brain. A good diet can do even more but I don't mind using pharma on top as bandaid when sh*t hits the brain. In my experience foggy brain is not necessarily related to weight gain. If you're gaining weight unexpectedly that suggests frequent insulin secretions. I think insulin and/or blood glucose stability are factors in brain fogginess. Actually its a pretty common experience - many say they get foggy and sleepy when they eat huge carb meals at lunch.

 

[MightyFall]

Would hydrocortisone be effective in increasing cortisol?

 

[answersfound]

Would hydrocortisone be effective in increasing cortisol?

Stay away from hydrocortisone . Far away. Pregnenolone and cyproheptadine

 

[lexis]

Increase glycogen storage.Taurine

 

[haidut]

If your cortisol is low DHEA is probably not good for you. It is a powerful glucocorticoid antagonist and also an inhibitor of 11b-HSD1. So, it will push your cortisol levels even lower.
Pregnenolone or progesterone may work, but may also suppress cortisol. So, you can try and see how it affects you.

Haidut, how do you understand low cortisol in disease? When I read Peat I only see high cortisol in disease, a consequence of energy deficiency. If I extrapolate I get low cortisol to mean abundance of energy.

Low cortisol is also an issue. It could be due to adrenal insufficiency (Addison disease, which is rare), low pituitary function (and thus low CRH/ACTH), a problem with some of the enzymes controlling steroid conversion pathways, or unavailability of the raw materials cholesterol/pregnenolone. I would try some pregnenolone first. No more than 30mg at a time to avoid suppression of ACTH/CRH.

 

[Nick Ireland]

Overweight and depressed, and fatigued. These also happen to be classic signs of histamine overload. Brain fog is now a well known symptom of histamine. You don't need a runny nose or hoarse breathing to have histamine issues. I've seen (and will dig out) a very well written document on years of 'adrenal fatigue' being cured with several concurrent OTC antihistamines. These down regulated the excess release of histamine over time and the guy got his life back. Of note, he visited an immunologist who took the blunt end of a pen and rubbed it down the inside of the guy's arm with reasonable pressure. Soon a red line appeared and did not dissipate for over an hour. The immuno said this showed excessive activity of mast cells releasing histamine and not shutting down when they should - the line would have gone in 5 or ten mins with normal folks.
I think Haidut will know a little more than me about the ensuing cytokines release and their role in setting a vicious circle of fatigue and depression?

Why not try a little Benadryl at night and some Allegra during the day? The fix is in the dose. Only a few mg of benadryl is needed for exclusively antihistamine effects. Anything over that starts effecting neurotransmitters. Most benadryl tabs are 50mg. I nibble mine the way others nibble thyroid. I think the daytime antihistamines have much more conservative doses as standard.

There is also a US OTC mast cell inhibitor called Cromolyn. I started it today, myself, as prescribed by my physician. I can let you know how i progress if you like? Sugar and a Peat diet have squashed my stress hormones. Individual supps like Retinol have taken care of issues like prolactin. As the (inefficient) energy giving high cortisol and adrenalin subsided I was left with heavy legs and lower motivation. They had been high for so long, they were my default metabolic hormones. BOTH are the body's response to persistently high histamine as it happens but sometimes the cortisol runs out (crash) or never manages to rise enough to suppress symptoms. High Cortisol will also use up oral medications at a rapid rate (it's a transporter). I've seen quite a few TRT guys with this issue. My brother is the same, so it could be genetic.

I never found cyprohetidine strong enough (maybe histamine wa ps my big issue and not serotonin), but benadryl kicks **** and it's half life seems to be better. Mirtazapine at 5mg is also incredibly suppressive of histamine. The 'comedown' from histamine and all the stress hormones dealing with it is quite profound - leading one to think that their regime is somehow going in the wrong direction. That can take a couple of weeks to subside.
Histamine suppresses testosterone, increases tissue estrogen and serotonin (which is also released by mast cells) and it tanks fertility in males.

I want to a avoid going down the hit'n'miss roller coaster of thyroid supplementing as a way of metabolising myself out of high histamine (and Haidut has been very helpful with that). I know the toxic cause of my situation and am, in a sense, in virgin territory of managing/beating symptoms. Quite a few agents help me metabolise histamine better eg Q10, but I want to get to the source of this and cut it if possible.

Histamine may NOT be your problem, but it is now so common (especially as stress induced HPA activation can set it off) it is very worth looking into.

 

[Nick Ireland]

Mighty - an interesting article on histamine I kept from a few years back.

http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.p ... =Histamine

 

[tara]

Hi Mighty,
Maybe you have more recent thyroid lab results, but in June last year you posted:
"TOTAL THYROXINE(T4) 69 nmol/L 59 - 154
THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 2.87 mIU/L 0.27 - 4.2 "
From a Peatish perspective, this is not optimal.

I've read a few of your previous posts, but I don't see much information about what and how much you are eating, and whether you have any data from monitoring body temperature and pulse. I tend to think it's worth addressing health with food, sunlight (or red light), breathing, sleep, appropriate movement, etc before considering much in the way of supplements, except possibly micronutrients where the diet isn't strong in these. So without more information on what you have been trying, and data about your metabolism, I'd be reluctant to advise hormones or drugs.

When you tried thyroid, how did you dose it? That same thread your dr suggests 25mcg T4. It seems to not be unusual for too much T4 without sufficient T3 to give the opposite to the desired effects. Did you ever get around to trying a tiny amount of T3 with the T4?

 

[MightyFall]

I really appreciate all the responses, but I'm feeling too cognitively impaired to reply or debate.

I took a very small dose of 5mg of pregnenolone today and feel groggy, tired and brain-foggy. In short, it's aggravated my adrenal fatigue symptoms. I have no idea why I'm so sensitive to hormonal supplements, even in very small doses. 25mcg of Levothyroxine supplemented for only two days induced throbbing head pressure that lasted for a few weeks. My cortisol isn't even chronically low, and I can tolerate vitamin and mineral supplements to an extent. I also have this moderate pain in my upper abdomen and some breathing issues. Would a cream be safer since it wouldn't be digested by the liver?

Should I wait until I build tolerance for it? I'm literally at rock bottom and have no other alternatives.

 

[Peata]

It sounds somewhat like the things I went through. I stay away from pregnenolone at this point. I think at the time I took it last year, it tried to lower my cortisol but I didn't have the metabolism to back it up. I felt very bad on it, and the only thing that relieved it much was when I'd have temporary increases in temps, as though my thyroid was trying to fire up, but at that time it couldn't sustain it. Anyway...

What helped me overall lately was:

Covering some of the basic vitamins and minerals with supplements as needed, which I was already doing, but wanted to mention in case. B vits, Magnesium, calcium, etc.

Get glycogen problem under control, which I think was greatly helped in a short amount of time with 20 mg. famotidine (Pepcid) every morning.

Increasing metabolism with things like eating every 2 - 3 hours (even if not really hungry, eating a little something with protein and carbs, such as salted string cheese and a half cup of canned fruit, for example)

Using salt generously and not overdiluting body with too much liquid.

Using a quality coconut oil as a supplement, starting with 1/2 t. doses for a total of 1 t. per day, but working up to more gradually.

Reduce pufas of course.

I also use something to try to lower serotonin more, whether cyproheptadine or lysine...

Just my .02 Hope you feel better soon.

 

[Coldhandsandfeet]

post 90430

If your cortisol is low DHEA is probably not good for you. It is a powerful glucocorticoid antagonist and also an inhibitor of 11b-HSD1. So, it will push your cortisol levels even lower.
Pregnenolone or progesterone may work, but may also suppress cortisol. So, you can try and see how it affects you.

Haidut, how do you understand low cortisol in disease? When I read Peat I only see high cortisol in disease, a consequence of energy deficiency. If I extrapolate I get low cortisol to mean abundance of energy.

Low cortisol is also an issue. It could be due to adrenal insufficiency (Addison disease, which is rare), low pituitary function (and thus low CRH/ACTH), a problem with some of the enzymes controlling steroid conversion pathways, or unavailability of the raw materials cholesterol/pregnenolone. I would try some pregnenolone first. No more than 30mg at a time to avoid suppression of ACTH/CRH.

interesting...

 

[TubZy]

So I guess there isnt much you can do for borderline low end cortisol. Peat suggested thyroid before and others suggested pregnenolone. I think T3 is probably the only best way to correct the pituitary issue. I think Peat mentioned taking thyroid/T3 for only s few days can help correct a possible HPTA issue.

Preg could possibly help but then the whole reason cortisol is low is from the thyroid not being able to support metabolism (hypothyroid) and the weight getting pressed on the adrenals to do the work. So if the issue originated with the thyroid, firing it back up for a while could help correct the issue.

 

[haidut]

So I guess there isnt much you can do for borderline low end cortisol. Peat suggested thyroid before and others suggested pregnenolone. I think T3 is probably the only best way to correct the pituitary issue. I think Peat mentioned taking thyroid/T3 for only s few days can help correct a possible HPTA issue.

Preg could possibly help but then the whole reason cortisol is low is from the thyroid not being able to support metabolism (hypothyroid) and the weight getting pressed on the adrenals to do the work. So if the issue originated with the thyroid, firing it back up for a while could help correct the issue.

There are some inhibitors of 11b-HSD2, which will raise cortisol. I personally would not play with them but there is that option. Inhibiting 5-AR also tends to raise cortisol, but again, this is a dangerous road to embark upon.

 

[ecstatichamster]

raising cholesterol by consuming more sugar and fruit might be helpful.

the whole reason cortisol is low is from the thyroid not being able to support metabolism (hypothyroid) and the weight getting pressed on the adrenals to do the work. So if the issue originated with the thyroid, firing it back up for a while could help correct the issue.

weight getting pressed on the adrenals? I take it you mean figuratively, like the adrenals must work harder to compensate, not weight from the body literally pressing down?

Low cortisol is difficult. I think there is the far more common problem that may precede it, which is cortisol resistance, and perhaps this leads to adrenal burnout...?