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25mg Dhea Amazing Study In Men 2004

Discussion in 'DHEA' started by timrice23, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. timrice23

    timrice23 Member

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    Hi all

    This is what believes me to think that low dose dhea is way better than higher dose. In the study where they gave men 50mg and 100mg the hormone profile wasnt raised at all apart from dhea and dheas.

    But just look at this study i dug up that uses 25mg only and how it raised the WHOLE hormone profile of EVERYTHING.

    I will be taking 25mg daily from now on because it seems low dose dhea actually works whereas higher dosages, the body does nothing with it.

    Maybe an expert can come on and tell us exactly why this is? But my advice is to take 25mg or below daily to raise males hormone profiles to younger men. Anything else is a waste of time and money. Here is the study.

    Where has this study been for so long and why hasnt anyone picked up on this?





    Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency.
    Genazzani AR1, Inglese S, Lombardi I, Pieri M, Bernardi F, Genazzani AD, Rovati L, Luisi M.
    Author information
    Abstract

    Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS) age-related withdrawal is very likely to be involved in the aging process and the onset of age-related diseases, giving rise to the question of whether preventing or compensating the decline of these steroids may have endocrine and clinical benefits. The aim of the present trial was to evaluate the endocrine, neuroendocrine and clinical consequences of a long-term (1 year), low-dose (25 mg/day) replacement therapy in a group of aging men who presented the clinical characteristics of partial androgen deficiency (PADAM). Circulating DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total testosterone and free testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, allopregnanolone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), cortisol, follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) levels were evaluated monthly to assess the endocrine effects of the therapy, while beta-endorphin values were used as a marker of the neuroendocrine effects. A Kupperman questionnaire was performed to evaluate the subjective symptoms before and after treatment. The results showed a great modification of the endocrine profile; with the exception of cortisol levels, which remained unchanged, DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, DHT, progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estrone, estradiol, GH, IGF-1 and beta-endorphin levels increased significantly with respect to baseline values, while FSH, LH and SHBG levels showed a significant decrease. The Kupperman score indicated a progressive improvement in mood, fatigue and joint pain. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that 25 mg/day of DHEA is able to cause significant changes in the hormonal profile and clinical symptoms and can counteract the age-related decline of endocrine and neuroendocrine functions. Restoring DHEA levels to young adult values seems to benefit the age-related decline in physiological functions but, however promising, placebo-controlled trials are required to confirm these preliminary results.
     
  2. TripleOG

    TripleOG Member

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  3. OP
    timrice23

    timrice23 Member

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  4. SOMO

    SOMO Member

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    25mg for all weights/heights?

    What if a male is 6"3 and 225 lbs? His dosage should be the same as a male that is 5"5 and 120 lbs?
     
  5. Vinero

    Vinero Member

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    Also topical DHEA favors the androgenic pathway of T and DHT, whereas taking oral DHEA passes trough the liver which converts a higher percentage of the DHEA to estrogen. So taking topical is the best for raising Androgens and keeping estrogen low.
     
  6. cyclops

    cyclops Member

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    Do you know if there a similar situation regarding oral vs topical Pregnenolone? Progesterone would be interesting to know as well, if topical vs oral makes much difference.
     
  7. OP
    timrice23

    timrice23 Member

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    Hi friend
    I would like to see your studies on this please if i may. I dont know of anyone experiencing estrogen high levels thorugh dhea through any pathway, i think your getting carried away with rumours over the years. I have taken dhea for 5 years now from 25mg-200mg daily and the only hormones that went up were dhea, dheas, estrogen, testosterone, dht, igf 1, hgh and blood sugar reduced. I never had estrogen any higher than it should be for a man in normal levels, after 3 years of blood work at the doctors.

    Oral dhea may slightly raise estrogen but its tiny and of no statistical issue after 6 hours later. Honestly this is why there is so much false information out there on dhea. You do realise men need estrogen dont you to stay lean, slim and for the brain? If you didnt have it you would be overweight and not function properly. Dont feed the myth that men only need testosterone to be a man, thats a very dangerous one to make. Why do you think men get fatter after 30? Its the decline of dhea and NOT testosterone, which does not decline very much! Free testosterone declines and dhea frees it up!

    The point i am making is that 25mg of dhea daily raises ALL male hormones as it should do and anything higher only raises dhea and dheas. No need to go any higher gents than 25mg, and it shows that oral works the same as anything or route. I just am so fed up with guys i come across talking about estrogen all the time, show me the proof that dhea raises estrogen BEYOND normal values for men? Testosterone metabolizes to estrogen, it does it for a reason, men need it! If they didnt, aromatase wouldnt be in men!


    PEAK TESTOSTERONE
    What Hormones Does DHEA Change?
     
  8. Glassy

    Glassy Member

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    25mg is a relatively small dose of a powder. How do you dose DHEA? I was thinking a suspension in MCT might be more convenient than trying to get a tiny scoop of it out. Then take 0.5-1.0ml of the suspension for the 25mg.

    I’ve had some for a while but not taken it regularly enough to notice (or at a high enough dosage) any difference. I mixed mine with MCT, mixed tocopherol and pregnenalone and apply it topically. I need to shake vigorously to resuspend the settled powder. I’m not sure how much is absorbed topically in an oil base either.

    I’m apprehensive about taking any exogenous hormones (even preg & prog) because I have no idea what my baseline hormone levels are or what they’re doing.

    You’ve been supplementing with it for a long time. What results and changes have you seen/experienced?
     
  9. opethfeldt

    opethfeldt Member

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    Oral DHEA in 25mg doses never made me feel too great. Also, 25mg is hardly "low dose". Do some research on this forum and you'll see we have generally different ideas of what a reasonable dosage is of DHEA compared to many other health sites. With regards to your personal experience, I think you just might be lucky, or maybe you're enjoying the effects of the increased estrogen. Peat says estrogen has cocaine-like effects. At any rate, if estrogen is going up at ALL, that pretty much rules out oral DHEA as something that is beneficial for male health, regardless of what it does to the levels of androgenic hormones. I suppose you could combine the 25mg oral DHEA with an aromatase inhibitor, but why not just use it topically in low dose and not have to worry about it at all, while still getting the androgenic benefits?
     
  10. OP
    timrice23

    timrice23 Member

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    With respect sir. your not correct. Dhea does not elevate estrogen past whats normal for men in the same range. If it was causing estrogen dominance then something is wrong with you! If your overweight or obese then testosterone will more so convert to estrogen, thats why young people have high testosterone when there lean.

    There is no evidence that dhea converts to more estrogen than the normal range in men period. Testosterone and estrogen are critical to mens health and fluctuate daily. Show me studies that dhea makes a man estrogen dominant when taken in pill form and i will repent.

    There is no eveidence and actually dhea hasnt been studied in men very much anyway, its been studied in women much more, probably because they know they cant patent it and it works in men to raise the hormone profile at low dosages. I am not the "lucky one", dhea is released at numbers from 15-25mg in young people for a reason, it is the pre cursor to testosterone and estrogen in humans, without it you wouldnt have a sex drive or muscle mass or any testosterone at all. All testosterone comes from dhea to andro to the hormones in every tissue in your body, even the testicles need dhea to convert to andro to testosterone to make it.

    Your comment is ill advised and plainly wrong.
     
  11. opethfeldt

    opethfeldt Member

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    With all due respect, recommending something that increases estrogen in a forum full of people struggling with health issues is irresponsible and plainly wrong. In addition, DHEA converts to estrogen mainly in the liver. So, obese or not, a male is going to get an increase in estrogen from DHEA. Also, in my post I mentioned that any increase in estrogen is bad. Peat thinks estrogen should be kept as low as possible and from personal experience, this is generally true, assuming estrogen is high enough to promote libido and avoid joint pain. If your estrogen is at the top of the "normal" range, that doesn't mean your estrogen is at an optimal level. Most, if not all men, will be healthiest at the 25 percentile for estrogen. Try maintaining that on 25mg of DHEA without an AI. Probably not going to happen.
     
  12. OP
    timrice23

    timrice23 Member

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    Ok i am done here, thanks for allowing me to post in the forum i have enjoyed my time here. You are clearly people who have no respect for facts and studies on dhea, even when they are thrown at you from real studies. I wont be wasting my time anymore because you sound like your under mind control or something.

    Fact are,25mg dhea raises ALL hormones and benefits men, over 25mg wont. Dhea does NOT raise estrogen to anything high in males and thats also a fact and studies prove it. 1600mg of dhea does NOT raise estrogen in males enough to be of concern! I have no idea why you act like this sir when the facts are in your face. You could raises estrogen by 5ngl and NOT have issues, the male body does it all the time!

    To lastly put it to you about being overweight, the more fat you have the more aromatase will kick in and make you estrogen dominant and thats fact. If people are overweight they should not take dhea if thats the case and LOSE WEIGHT! Do young people have estrogen dominance when they are young and have massive amounts of dhea? Of course they dont!

    I am age 47 and have 10 percent body fat and i take it all the time! Yes im ripped from weights but so?

    I wont be coming back here and posting again to try and help people because your blind to see facts, or trying to sell something to make me look wrong. Read the facts and studies and let people see the facts, DHEA does not raise estrogen to be of concern simple as that. And if you are telling people that IT DOES, your the dangerous one sir.

    I bid you farewell and the forum.
     
  13. Glassy

    Glassy Member

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    Hey mate.

    You obviously think supplementing DHEA at 25mg per day is good for you. Instead of arguing with someone who thinks it’s not or trying to convince us it’s good, tell us about your experiences with it.

    How did you reach that dosage? What did you experience at the higher dosages?

    What affects do you attribute to the DHEA and what happens when you stop supplementing it? It seems you have had blood tests, what did you find?
     
  14. opethfeldt

    opethfeldt Member

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    Frankly, I don't really care if you supplement oral DHEA. It's not my concern if your estrogen goes up. However, you're giving bad advice and I don't want anyone to go and take oral DHEA thinking it's good for male hormone balance. I don't deny it does do some good. However, since it raises estrogen, that negates any positives that it has AND one could simply supplement actual low dose DHEA (5mg) topically and actually reap all benefits with no drawbacks. You're way too personally attached to DHEA, mate. I think you need your estrogen checked. You have a lot to learn. Put DHEA into the search bar and educate yourself. In fact, the relevant threads were already linked by another poster. If that isn't enough for you, go and read Ray's article on the "steroids of youth". He specifically mentions DHEA needing to used in low doses only (he mentions 4mg) to avoid enlargement of the liver and shrinkage of the thymus: Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones
     
  15. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    all the studies show it raises estrogen. I would suggest more like 2 - 5mg a day, with progesterone or pregnenolone, and maybe you won't get the estrogen effects. The estrogen builds up over 6 months or so of taking doses such as the OP recommends.
     
  16. Hemo

    Hemo Member

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    E2 and SHBG should be between 20-30ng. It still amazes me the amount of focus people place on trying to chase all the expressions of hormones as they synthesize. The majority of mens forums grossly misplaces focus as they "maybe" cite a clinical study here or there or grab onto the latest outcome study blindly without following the money or intent.

    LDL is the basis and raw material for most if not all hormones. That's right the bad cholesterol we are told to get rid of with statins is the basis for most hormones. LDL is transported to the P450scc via ACTH (formerly desmolase 20,21) into the mitochondria for processing. Synthesis is significantly effected by enzymes as the various expressions of hormones present. Metabolically, compromised mitochondria and failure and lack of detox are at the center of what 99% of the people dance around. Here are a few examples:


    GH & E2
    I chased E2 for years and at one point was testing weekly. Only one lab that I know of has a legit E2 test, sensitive Labcorp. I was microdosing anastrozole to the compounded .05mg titrate. Baselined diet and tighted down everything. Still E2 would eaither go low into single digits or bust out into high 40's and higher. The solution for me and I say with me with emphasis, GROWTH HORMONE. The problem with GH is varied, its stigma, government and market restrictions, conventional medicine who walks the party line, the ignorant who have no clue. Yet, at the end of the day the feedback loop that GH has with relation to T increased T without additional dosing of T and gave me something to push into with the AI at .05 x 3 a week. E2 and SHBG lock in at low to mid 20's. We call it the master control hormone, but yet want to dance around downchain with all of the various expressions. IGF-1 and BP3 are ancillary markers that have little to do with GH. However, while I still note IGF-1 and moreso BP3, mostly to regulate cancer potentials, I place 99% of my trust in Rhine Labs 24 hour urine. Rhine uses the Belgium assay and it is the gold standard without question. So to all you guys out there chasing E2, start with a GH midline and go from there.

    Testosterone
    The world tests for T and free T. You return low. They put you on a cream, gel or injectible. Few treat the GI for inflamation or permiability breech then retests for T. Few test for estrogen levels to include E1 and E3, in addition to E2, treat and retest for T. They just put you on T and then follow with an AI when it all goes wonky. Between Gut, Estrogen and GH your T levels may be well above the 530ng level cited in the landmark study. Yet, convention and even anti-aging progressives will seldom approach in the manner described.

    hG - Mercury
    I spent thousands and had the mercury removed from my mouth. My zinc, which I though was rock solid at 2000 dropped to 1400. The mercury was cleving to the zinc and not allowing it to properly synthesize. If it is not from your teeth then it is the fish you eat. I suspect I will no longer need an AI as I very slowly get rid of the mercury without damaging my kidneys. Yet for years my monthly 7 pages of testing gave me confidence my zinc was alright.

    At the end of the day if you do not detox from heavy metals and other toxins, treat gut, cleanse liver, kidney and GI, optimize mito and address plascity and optimizing nootrophics, then most are just chasing feathers in the wind.

    Dear Tim: "When you think you have the answers, the questons change!" Rik Emmett, Triumph
     
  17. Hemo

    Hemo Member

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    Specific to DHEA. another express to chase. however, i will share that in women dhea converts into estrogen dominance. lopsides progesterone and T. 7-Keto will hold the dhea level, but there are still problems n an elderly post-menopausal woman whose SHBG goes through the roof when on T.

    Wondering if anyone has used 7-keto topical as a combo with dhea and if they had any significant findings.
     
  18. Aleeri

    Aleeri Member

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    I agree 5mg'ish DHEA topical is enough for me, as seen on my labs too, would never consider using more.

    On another note, I am curious, I was under the impression that DHEA cannot increase progesterone? But this study seem to suggest otherwise?
     
  19. japanesedude

    japanesedude Member

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    I have used 5mg up to 100mg a day of DHEA and I can say that we all should avoid taking DHEA 'orally'
    oral DHEA gave me side effects.
    irritability and anger from elevated level of Estrogen are just terrible.
     
  20. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    Can you generalize Based just on your own experience that oral DHEA should be avoided. Works great for me.
     
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