HPA Dysfunction ( Low Dhea-s) Former Anabolics User ( Bloodwork Included)

[MyUsernameHere]

Symptoms sound similar to a lot of us with PFS:

Finally Cured From Post Finasteride Syndrome

After nearly 4 years of suffering, I have finally & fully recovered from Post Finasteride Syndrome All my symptoms have subsided and improved with this method which takes a while but I am fully functional It's H.C.G (HCG) dosed at 250IU Monday, Wednesday and Friday only. I did this for 6...

raypeatforum.com

Maybe consider HCG.

 

[vibnad1991]

@Hans @haidut
So update - things have taken a turn for the worse.

Latest Bloodwork 16.07.21
Starting to feel like I may not recover. I may have damaged myself permanently. I feel like my testicles are still responsive but my HPTA is not.
Quick Note: The elevated prolactin most likely is because i had an orgasm 15 mins before drawing blood.
I dont know why my SHBG dropped dramatically.
I have been dieting and trying to lose weight but nothing crazy.
I am starting to lose hope. I came off April 2020 and things are just getting worse

 

[TheBeard]

@Hans @haidut
So update - things have taken a turn for the worse.

Latest Bloodwork 16.07.21
Starting to feel like I may not recover. I may have damaged myself permanently. I feel like my testicles are still responsive but my HPTA is not.
Quick Note: The elevated prolactin most likely is because i had an orgasm 15 mins before drawing blood.
I dont know why my SHBG dropped dramatically.
I have been dieting and trying to lose weight but nothing crazy.
I am starting to lose hope. I came off April 2020 and things are just getting worse

View attachment 24325

1) List ALL the steroids you have used in the past 9 years in decreasing order of length of use.

2) Were you on any AI? For how long

3) Were you on Clomid? For how long

I can start helping you from here

 

[vibnad1991]

@TheBeard
Steroids Used
2012 - 2015:
Testosterone
Anavar
Trenbolone - ( quite brief)
Anadrol

2016 - Mar 2020 ( when i came off)
25 mg EOD of test E ( which put me at 20 nmol)
Iused superdrol intermittently from 2016 - 2018
But 2018 onwards just 25 mg eod Test E and hcg intermittenly

I was not taking an AI. I took it on a few occassions but it never made me feel any better


On Clomid for about 6 weeks from April 20 - Mid May 20.

Then again briefly for 2 weeks at the start of Feb 21 which gave me these results:

My LH has been dropping since, hence the lower T levels. I feel like i am secondary hypogondal. When I take clomid my levels are good but my erections are worse.
The reason i came was because of erectile dysfunction. Its been at like 60-70% of what it was pre anabolics.

 

[TheBeard]

@TheBeard
Steroids Used
2012 - 2015:
Testosterone
Anavar
Trenbolone - ( quite brief)
Anadrol

2016 - Mar 2020 ( when i came off)
25 mg EOD of test E ( which put me at 20 nmol)
Iused superdrol intermittently from 2016 - 2018
But 2018 onwards just 25 mg eod Test E and hcg intermittenly

I was not taking an AI. I took it on a few occassions but it never made me feel any better


On Clomid for about 6 weeks from April 20 - Mid May 20.

Then again briefly for 2 weeks at the start of Feb 21 which gave me these results:
View attachment 24327

My LH has been dropping since, hence the lower T levels. I feel like i am secondary hypogondal. When I take clomid my levels are good but my erections are worse.
The reason i came was because of erectile dysfunction. Its been at like 60-70% of what it was pre anabolics.

Well, look no further, Clomid is the culprit.
It made me feel the worst I ever did in my life.

Get off that ***t ASAP, eat as Peaty as possible, fast for 4 days sometimes when you think you can, to get that out of your system.

One of Clomid isomers can stay in your system for up to 1 year and a half, so start ASAP.

 

[Hans]

@Hans @haidut
So update - things have taken a turn for the worse.

Latest Bloodwork 16.07.21
Starting to feel like I may not recover. I may have damaged myself permanently. I feel like my testicles are still responsive but my HPTA is not.
Quick Note: The elevated prolactin most likely is because i had an orgasm 15 mins before drawing blood.
I dont know why my SHBG dropped dramatically.
I have been dieting and trying to lose weight but nothing crazy.
I am starting to lose hope. I came off April 2020 and things are just getting worse

View attachment 24325

What's your diet like lately? Do you count calories and macros and check your micros?
Since clomid worked for you, it shows that there is still estrogen inhibiting the pituitary from secreting LH properly. So you'd benefit from something that works similar to clomid such as Long dan Xiegan Tang that I talked about in this article.
Have you had your thyroid checked?
You can always recheck prolactin later to see if it's high on default, as that also has potent inhibitory effects on steroidogenesis.
Serotonin, together with estrogen and prolactin, is also a potent inhibitor of steroidogenesis. Dopamine, which lowers prolactin, promotes steroidogenesis.

 

[vibnad1991]

What's your diet like lately? Do you count calories and macros and check your micros?
Since clomid worked for you, it shows that there is still estrogen inhibiting the pituitary from secreting LH properly. So you'd benefit from something that works similar to clomid such as Long dan Xiegan Tang that I talked about in this article.
Have you had your thyroid checked?
You can always recheck prolactin later to see if it's high on default, as that also has potent inhibitory effects on steroidogenesis.
Serotonin, together with estrogen and prolactin, is also a potent inhibitor of steroidogenesis. Dopamine, which lowers prolactin, promotes steroidogenesis.

@Hans I think you are completely right. There must still be a heavy estrogen load on my system despite estradiol being low. How can i detoxify the estrogen load in my body? DIM possibly. How exactly would Long dan Xiegan Tang help? I read the article but i am not sure if i understand the mechansim?

Diet Right Now:
Meal 1 : 50 grams whey protein isolate
Weight Train
Meal 2: 150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 3 :150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 4: 150 grams of steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 5: 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 6 : 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast and 2 chicken wings and sugar free jello

Whats odd is - strength is going up in the gym - but i dont feel as if testosterone ever really improved my strength - it was more calories than anything else.
My only symptoms are erectile dysfunction, no morning erections, waking up to pee at 1.30 and 4.30 am. But these symptoms obviously affect my mood and get me down.

 

[Hans]

@Hans I think you are completely right. There must still be a heavy estrogen load on my system despite estradiol being low. How can i detoxify the estrogen load in my body? DIM possibly. How exactly would Long dan Xiegan Tang help? I read the article but i am not sure if i understand the mechansim?

Diet Right Now:
Meal 1 : 50 grams whey protein isolate
Weight Train
Meal 2: 150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 3 :150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 4: 150 grams of steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 5: 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 6 : 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast and 2 chicken wings and sugar free jello

Whats odd is - strength is going up in the gym - but i dont feel as if testosterone ever really improved my strength - it was more calories than anything else.
My only symptoms are erectile dysfunction, no morning erections, waking up to pee at 1.30 and 4.30 am. But these symptoms obviously affect my mood and get me down.

Progesterone is great for getting estrogen out of the tissue. Long dan Xiegan Tang blocks the estrogen receptor at the pituitary, thus increasing LH and testosterone.

Your diet doesn't look nutrient dense at all. If you log it on cronometer you'll see all the missing pieces. Micros, which are vitamins and minerals, are essential for thyroid hormone production, testosterone synthesis, energy production, detoxification, etc, etc. I'd recommend adding dairy, eggs, some organ meat and perhaps shell fish.

Since your calcium intake is very low, that can lead to elevated PTH and prolactin and a lot of the symptoms you describe.

 

[vibnad1991]

Progesterone is great for getting estrogen out of the tissue. Long dan Xiegan Tang blocks the estrogen receptor at the pituitary, thus increasing LH and testosterone.

Your diet doesn't look nutrient dense at all. If you log it on cronometer you'll see all the missing pieces. Micros, which are vitamins and minerals, are essential for thyroid hormone production, testosterone synthesis, energy production, detoxification, etc, etc. I'd recommend adding dairy, eggs, some organ meat and perhaps shell fish.

Since your calcium intake is very low, that can lead to elevated PTH and prolactin and a lot of the symptoms you describe.

@Hans Unfortunately, progesterone destroys my libido, makes my penis completely limp and dries out my skin so much.
What dose do you think i should take of Long Dan.
Also i still have some belly fat which i believe could be storing excess estrogens from the years of gear use. I feel like i need to shed all that body fat to get rid of those toxins that i may still have in the body.
What is a normal LH for healthy men? I have been trying to find this? Do you know what yours is? I suppose guys with highly functioning testicles dont need as much LH to stimulate the same amount of testosterone

 

[Hans]

What dose do you think i should take of Long Dan.

It depends on what you get. The recommended dose should do.

Also i still have some belly fat which i believe could be storing excess estrogens from the years of gear use. I feel like i need to shed all that body fat to get rid of those toxins that i may still have in the body.

Fat around the midsection is often a sign of cortisol and serotonin, both of which are promoted by estrogen.

What is a normal LH for healthy men? I have been trying to find this? Do you know what yours is? I suppose guys with highly functioning testicles dont need as much LH to stimulate the same amount of testosterone

Mid-range of normal or higher, but it all depends on your sensitivity and your T levels. Sometimes LH is high but T low or vice versa.

 

[CLASH]

@vibnad1991
Looking at your diet, besides the lack of micros it seems that its very deficient in fat.

In my experience too low fat can cause issues with steroidogenesis in natural guys.

When you were using AAS its easy to keep fat low because your taking exogenous hormones, but when you come off you have to rely on your bodies own production which requires precursor i.e. fat and cholesterol.

My personal thought would be to address your diet first prioritizing micronutrients, and macronutrient balance.

 

[TheBeard]

@Hans I think you are completely right. There must still be a heavy estrogen load on my system despite estradiol being low. How can i detoxify the estrogen load in my body? DIM possibly. How exactly would Long dan Xiegan Tang help? I read the article but i am not sure if i understand the mechansim?

Diet Right Now:
Meal 1 : 50 grams whey protein isolate
Weight Train
Meal 2: 150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 3 :150 grams of cooked white rice and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 4: 150 grams of steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 5: 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast
Meal 6 : 150 grams of cooked steamed carrots and 250 grams of chicken breast and 2 chicken wings and sugar free jello

Whats odd is - strength is going up in the gym - but i dont feel as if testosterone ever really improved my strength - it was more calories than anything else.
My only symptoms are erectile dysfunction, no morning erections, waking up to pee at 1.30 and 4.30 am. But these symptoms obviously affect my mood and get me down.

Your diet is comprised of mostly empty foods.
Read the forum, understand what a Ray Peat diet is, make changes, give it 3 months, and see if it works.

 

[CLASH]

@vibnad1991
*To expand on what I mentioned yesterday, I ran your diet in cronometer real quick:
-1250g of chicken breast
-2 chicken wings
-50g of whey
-300g white rice
-450g carrots

*If this is your actual diet, your macros appear to be:
-450g of protein
-125g carbs
-70g of fat, with 16g of that fat being omega 6

*If I were you, heres what I'd do:
-determine your caloric requirement using a calorie formula like Katch-McArdle
-drop protein to 1g/lb
-Have carbs atleast 2x protein
-Have fat atleast 0.5g/lb from mostly monounsaturated and saturated fat sources
-Change up your protein sources to include eggs, beef, and seafood to round our your nutrients, cut down on PUFA, and adjust your amino acid ratios.
-Supplement some fat solubles (Vit E, Vit D3, Vit K2-MK4, Vit A) because it looks like you've been running a deficit in those for a while.
-add some more foods with vit C, like fresh fruits or 100% fruit juice, as it seems you've been running a deficit in that
-Add a B-complex to round out some of the lacking B-vitamins like folate, or alternatively add in some organ meats periodically and/or cooked leafy greens.
-Consider dairy if you tolerate it, or a calcium/ magnesium supplement

Below you will find snapshots of your diet placed in cronometer:

 

[vibnad1991]

@CLASH Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think you are right. I need to change my diet and hopefully that will start stimulating my LH levels. I honestly have no idea how long its going to take for me to recover or if i will even recover, but ill give this a try

 

[MagroNomac]

"I'd personally focus on thyroid, preg and prog. Thyroid for natural steroidogenesis. Preg for providing the precursors and prog for minimizing stress and replenishing neurosteroids in the brain that has been reduced by long-term TRT use."
"Long dan Xiegan Tang blocks the estrogen receptor at the pituitary, thus increasing LH and testosterone."

@Hans would you recommend these four things for someone who believes they may have improper hpa function, hypogonadism, or hypothyroidism? I think I'm one of these based off my symptoms but don't know how to truly verify.

 

[Hans]

"I'd personally focus on thyroid, preg and prog. Thyroid for natural steroidogenesis. Preg for providing the precursors and prog for minimizing stress and replenishing neurosteroids in the brain that has been reduced by long-term TRT use."
"Long dan Xiegan Tang blocks the estrogen receptor at the pituitary, thus increasing LH and testosterone."

@Hans would you recommend these four things for someone who believes they may have improper hpa function, hypogonadism, or hypothyroidism? I think I'm one of these based off my symptoms but don't know how to truly verify.

I'd say Longdan xiegan tang, gonadin and thyroid is a good start yes. Gonadin stimulates StAR, which transports cholesterol into the mitochondria for conversion to pregnenolone and gonadin is also a potent GABA agonist, so will help against hpaa dysfunction. So then you got thyroid, adrenals, pituitary and testes sorted.

 

[Mister]

@Hans Is proviron a good alternative to Longdan xiegan tang?

 

[Hans]

@Hans Is proviron a good alternative to Longdan xiegan tang?

Proviron does antagonize estrogen, but it can also be suppressive. So it depends on your goal. If you want to kickstart everything naturally, then I'd go for Longdan, but if you're good with using preg, prog, thyroid and proviron, then that's also fine.

 

[vibnad1991]

@Hans @CLASH@TheBeard @haidut

Update : 18 months post cessation of testosterone. Still waking up to pee in the night. But sleep quality is a lot better and sleeping more total hours. Erections still 60% and penis sensitivity slightly improved ( absolutely convinced its due to low dhea-s - its been known for that). I have no idea why my Ferritin is so high. SHBG quite low. Are there any other south asian people on this board who can share their bloodwork ( indian, bangladeshi or sri lankan). We tend to have lower SHBG than caucasians from a study i saw.

 

[Hans]

@Hans @CLASH@TheBeard @haidut

Update : 18 months post cessation of testosterone. Still waking up to pee in the night. But sleep quality is a lot better and sleeping more total hours. Erections still 60% and penis sensitivity slightly improved ( absolutely convinced its due to low dhea-s - its been known for that). I have no idea why my Ferritin is so high. SHBG quite low. Are there any other south asian people on this board who can share their bloodwork ( indian, bangladeshi or sri lankan). We tend to have lower SHBG than caucasians from a study i saw.

View attachment 28312

What have you done in the meanwhile? I'd really get the iron down.
SHBG is actually a good marker for thyroid tissue levels since thyroid hormones increase SHBG production. If tissue thyroid hormones are low, then SHBG can also be low.