Low acetylcholine? Dysautonomia?

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,078
Location
Texas
(Interesting how brain serotonin went up 2x in the lead intoxicated rats, which they associated with the increased anxiety, and also lowered GABA, which both were close to normal baseline in the thiamine group, ~1g human dose used. other human study showed increased lead excretion at 100mg. this also mentions how lead can deplete iron and skew tryptophan levels high, where the other one says correcting thiamine deficiency can prevent iron overload too so helps to balance both ends by the looks of it). did not fully prevent all brain lesions but prevented all severe lesions, and most moderate lesions.
Thiamine is required to clear serotonin from the brain. Lead binds with thiamine, making the thiamine unavailable (causes thiamine deficiency) so the brain serotonin cannot be cleared. The chemical bond of the lead to the thiamine also inactivates the lead, making it inert(?), less toxic at least. The symptoms of lead poisoning exactly match the symptoms of thiamine deficiency and thiamine supplementation resolves the symptoms of lead poisoning.

Another wrinkle in this is that thiamine deficiency causes the blood/brain barrier to become compromised so that heavy metals, including iron, can get into the brain and cause problems. Usually this is discussed as a problem in alcoholics who have thiamine deficiency due to the consumption of alcohol. But there are many other causes of thiamine deficiency/functional blockage than drinking alcohol. Heavy metal poisoning is one of them.

Forgive me if there is duplication with the links below and ones previously posted:




 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
I remember that I took it in the morning and was OK all day. The problem happened at 2:00am when I woke up with extremely high adrenaline and felt horrible. I spent an hour or so online researching the issue and found a scientific article that said that b-5 increases something (I've forgotten the name) that causes fatty acids to be released from storage. I did not take a second pill but the same thing happened the next night so it took 48 hours to clear my system. This was around 2015 when I was researching a lot and reading a lot of Ray Peat articles. I was pretty sure that my body fat was toxic, my lead toxicity was high, and it was not a good idea to encourage the release of free fatty acids; I still think it's good to keep fatty acids in storage and that niacinamide helps do that. The body stores toxins in the fat; PUFA becomes concentrated in the fat because even fat cells don't want to burn it because it is toxic.

This doctor was mainly focused on weight loss and tried to push a keto diet on me. She put all her patients on weight loss meds. I wasn't there to lose weight; I was there because she was the only doctor in town who would prescribe Armour desiccated thyroid and I had lost my doctor who had put me on it (the state stripped him of his license). He was a good doctor, just a little strange and paranoid about keeping his patients' records; he only kept hard copies, never computerized them. He prescribed vitamins a lot and I remember he would examine patients' blood with a dark field microscope. My blood showed I had a serious problem with leaky gut so he put me on deglycyrrhizinated licorice and golden seal (if memory serves) for 3 months, which helped a lot. The State raided his office and shut him down.

Here's some info about b-5: Pantothenic acid as a weight-reducing agent: Fasting without hunger, weakness and ketosis

i had the same reaction when taking for the first time 500mg B5.

before that i never took b5 or b complex, only other b like b1, b6, b3, b2.

second time i felt bad but not as much.

then i could take it after a few weeks.

it turns out i solved a very big health problem and i was severely deficient in acetylcholine.

i took zinc and choline mainly for 2 months.

but somewhere in the first 2 weeks i took B5.

then after some days of taking zinc and choline, and smaller b5 doses for a few days, u was able to take the hole b5 500mg without any side effect.

I'm sure the rain is i was somehow low in B5 and deficient in acetylcholine.

my main deficiency was zinc and maybe also choline.

so if you react like this to b5 i suggest to check your zinc and choline levels, cause you might be low on acetylcholine (not only because of b5) like i was and had that reaction.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
by the way, my reaction to B5 the first day was extreme.

i thought i would "die" all day or fall unconscious.

then only a few days after, after taking zinc and choline daily, i didn't felt anything at all from taking it.

and that zinc solved many old symptoms in my body (about 12).
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
i know zinc to much blocks copper, what happened to me with picolinate.

but if you take only bisgycinate 15mg with 1.5mg or 2mg copper, it's ok even more than one month.

it only blocks copper if you take more. but it's not the end of the world, it only blocks copper for about 2 or 3 weeks, it doesn't deplete copper in the body unless you don't eat copper with zinc in 1/10.

but if you eat oysters is ok, you need to eat 20 or 30 oysters every week for 2 months if you are zinc deficient.

if you only eat 6 oysters per week once it is not enaught to balance the vitamin a and Cooper in liver, if you eat liver every week more than 100g.

in my case i had a history of 2 years liver consumption and lead poisoning in the past, and only supplemental zinc could fix me.
 
Last edited:

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,078
Location
Texas
i had the same reaction when taking for the first time 500mg B5.

before that i never took b5 or b complex, only other b like b1, b6, b3, b2.

second time i felt bad but not as much.

then i could take it after a few weeks.

it turns out i solved a very big health problem and i was severely deficient in acetylcholine.

i took zinc and choline mainly for 2 months.

but somewhere in the first 2 weeks i took B5.

then after some days of taking zinc and choline, and smaller b5 doses for a few days, u was able to take the hole b5 500mg without any side effect.

I'm sure the rain is i was somehow low in B5 and deficient in acetylcholine.

my main deficiency was zinc and maybe also choline.

so if you react like this to b5 i suggest to check your zinc and choline levels, cause you might be low on acetylcholine (not only because of b5) like i was and had that reaction.
Because B5 is known to facilitate the release of stored fatty acids into the bloodstream I do not think that it is a safe supplement. Stored fatty acids can be very toxic if they are polyunsaturated and it is safer to keep them in storage than it is to facilitate their release into the bloodstream. 500mg of B5 is a massive dose and I wouldn't take it myself.

I was deficient in acetylcholine and resolved the problem by supplementing with thiamine hcl. Thiamine is key to improving acetylcholine levels.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
i agree,500mg is too much.

i did it only a few times to correct any deficiency, but then i bought 100mg pills that i can divide in two doses, but i don't use them often.

i think most important is choline levels and zinc for normal levels. why zinc ? because it seem to promote parasympathetic activity (acetylcholine) while copper seem to enhance sympathetic activity (noradrenalin, dopamine).

i also started with thiamine, but it didn't worked well, i think it depleted even further my choline levels.

i think anything they raise choline should be used with supplemental choline prior and during.

i have to try high dose thiamine again. and there are nootropics for people wanting to go above normal levels.
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,078
Location
Texas
i agree,500mg is too much.

i did it only a few times to correct any deficiency, but then i bought 100mg pills that i can divide in two doses, but i don't use them often.

i think most important is choline levels and zinc for normal levels. why zinc ? because it seem to promote parasympathetic activity (acetylcholine) while copper seem to enhance sympathetic activity (noradrenalin, dopamine).

i also started with thiamine, but it didn't worked well, i think it depleted even further my choline levels.

i think anything they raise choline should be used with supplemental choline prior and during.

i have to try high dose thiamine again. and there are nootropics for people wanting to go above normal levels.
Do you know how much choline is in your diet? Do you know how much zinc you are getting? Please forgive me if you have already posted this information.

Here's a link to an article about choline that discuses daily amounts needed: Office of Dietary Supplements - Choline

Here's a link to information about zinc, including the dangers of too much zinc: Office of Dietary Supplements - Zinc

Ray Peat recommends relying on eating shellfish for mineral intake because he considers supplementing with individual minerals as risky because over doing it and getting the body's minerals out of balance is pretty easy to do.

i also started with thiamine, but it didn't worked well, i think it depleted even further my choline levels.
Thiamine facilitates the production of acetylcholine; choline would get used in this process. So yes, it would utilize choline, but that's the point, isn't it?
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
i took 30mg zinc for 2 months.

at the end i increased to 45 or 60mg par day and i got some side effects, then i stopped and got better after 3 weeks.

so i think 30mg per day for one month if you are deficient, otherwise only 15mg per day for 2 months is safe.

in think you should take it with copper, i didn't, i took the copper after i stopped the zinc, but i think it's safer with copper.

for choline i ate 6 eggs per day, reduced to 4 eggs now. i also used some alpha GDP in the beginning.

it's better to use food, indeed, but sometimes it's easier with supplements.

i plan to resume taking again zinc at 15mg per day, with 2mg copper. But don't take it more than 2 months in a raw, i agree it could cause problems if you really too often on supplements of zinc.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
to be honest, fruit may be natural, but weekly liver is unlikely, so oysters are not a good you would have every week.

other than oysters, there's no way to get enaught zinc on your diet, in a natural way.

in my case, i had so many gut cramps that i was afraid of everything. i tried to eat oysters but was afraid some may be contaminated by bacteria, and causing my gut cramps.

for me, taking zinc supplements was safer than eating oysters daily.

because with zinc i was sure they would not cause my bacterial infection, at most they could have caused stomach pain but they never did that for me.

eating oysters i got very paranoid. i discard 2 or 3 times the entire 24 fresh oysters after the first day i got cramps.

my craps were not caused by oysters i think, but since i was not sure...

but when i started with zinc supplements, i was able to take them every day without fear. even with some cramps i knew it was not because of bacterial infection of the zinc supplements...

so it depends really on the quality of your food and also the budget if you can afford oysters.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
I try just to give a testimony for this kind of IBS-C that i had for 12 years.

for me it started after a very severe lead poisoning confirmed by blood analysis but not treated in hospital, with severe gut colon cramps, like you can see with lead poisoning.

in time, i got better, but the guy IBS with pain remained 12 years later and got worse with excess vitamin a from liver.

staying with zinc cured it in 3 weeks, after 12 years of suffering.

i day this because no medical condition is known officially. lead poisoning is only recognized for the first few weeks, not for 12 years.

and i was considered IBS-C which officially has no cure.

i tried everything during 12 years (vegan, les fiber, peat diet rich in liver, etc). with zinc it cured. and i don't need to take zinc, actually i stopped taking zinc after 2 months and now it's been 6 months without zinc and still I'm cured, so it's not only a temporary fix and it does not require me to keep taking it, the effect remains after stopping the zinc supplement.

i day this because i didn't found in the internet much useful information to cure IBS-c caused by lead poisoning.

maybe someone else has the same problem.

oh, and it did solved many other things in my body related to low acetylcholine, that's why i know it was chronic low acetylcholine causing it somehow, but i wouldn't recommend taking any nootropics before fixing zinc.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
i still have dysbiosis with gas, nausea sometimes.

but i don't have the pain, when i have had now, i just hear and bearly feel it, i don't feel the pain and cramps any longer.

i don't need to stay in bed all day long with hot pillows on my belly in order to relax the muscles of the colon.

so that was cured, not the dysbiosis of the gut itself, but it improved the digestion a bit.

now I'm working to fix this too.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
when the body feels you take more zinc than needed, it starts to excrete it.

if i remember well, excess zinc is not dangerous because of toxicity, the body will excrete it in a few days or weeks.

the protein that binds excess zinc also bins copper, but it binds copper much more strongly than zinc, so if will cause a temporary copper deficiency.

why temporary ? because usually the body has a lot of stored copper in liver (especially if you are peating). the protein that binds zinc will only be there until the body gets rid of excess zinc. after that, you recover you normal levels of both zinc and copper.

excess copper or lead poisoning will deplete zinc chronically, because the body does not have much zinc stored like copper.

the only way to create long term imbalance in copper with zinc is if you keep taking it over and over without cooper.

if someone takes to much zinc and starts to create the binding protein, and if that person is very low on liver copper and vitamin a, maybe it will Les him up long term, but this kind of problem is not caused by zinc, but by his low nutrition in his diet. zinc is only the trigger.

so be careful with zinc, prefer food if possible, but don't be afraid of short term low dose zinc if you feel you're deficient.
 

youngsinatra

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
3,084
Location
Europe
Lean beef is an excellent source of zinc. Unlike shellfish it has the advantage of not being contaminated with heavy metals.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
meat also contains some choline.

for long time i was only consuming milk, dairy sometimes eggs. not much meat or shellfish for years.

i was peating without any major zinc source, or only once a week seaweed.
 

mostlylurking

Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,078
Location
Texas
i day this because no medical condition is known officially. lead poisoning is only recognized for the first few weeks, not for 12 years.
Lead poisoning stays with you forever; it's a heavy metal. I've got it and have had problems because of it for years. Lead depletes thiamine. Thiamine supplementation resolves the symptoms of lead poisoning; it looks like it also affects zinc levels.

"Lead poisoning remains a serious problem in veterinary and human medicine. A number of lead chelators have been used for treatment of lead intoxication, but none of them is completely effective to remove lead from all organs. Therefore, alternatives for the treatment of lead poisoning are required. In this study, the efficacy of thiamine on blood and tissue lead contents was evaluated in subclinical lead toxicosis in sheep. Nine female sheep weighing 25–29kg were orally receiving a daily dose of 80mg/kg body weight of lead acetate for 5days. Then, the animals were assigned into two groups. Group 1 did not receive any further treatment and was used as the control group, and group 2 was treated intravenously by 25mg/kg body weight of thiamine twice daily for 7days. Within 1day following treatment, in the treated group, blood lead level (mean 243.5μg/l) was significantly (P < 0.05) lower than that in group 1 (mean, 518.16μg/l). Thiamine treatment significantly reduced ovary lead content. A significant reduction of serum zinc concentration was also observed in thiamine treated animals. These results suggest that thiamine might have some therapeutic effects on lead poisoning, but the zinc status of depletion should be considered during long periods of treatment."

The link I provided above, Office of Dietary Supplements - Zinc includes the following information:
"High zinc intakes can cause nausea, dizziness, headaches, gastric distress, vomiting, and loss of appetite [2,3]. If used for weeks, doses of 50 mg zinc or more—typically from supplements or excessive use of denture adhesive creams that contain zinc—can interfere with copper absorption (which can cause low copper status), reduce immune function, and lower HDL cholesterol levels [1-3,97]. The amount of zinc obtained from food is rarely as high as 50 mg, so the zinc in foods is unlikely to cause zinc toxicity. Very high doses of zinc from supplements (142 mg/day) might also interfere with magnesium absorption and disrupt magnesium balance [98].

If you are deficient in magnesium you will have problems with supplementing thiamine because thiamine needs a little magnesium to work.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
the rate of depletion of lead in the body is variable in organs.

the lead in the bone had a half life of 7 years if i remember well. that means by now i only have 25% of what i absorbed in the bone.

and in other tissues it's much faster, meaning by now it's almost gone, at 95% or more i think.

especially i did a protocol 6 years ago with a blend designed to remove lead, that was scientifically proven to reduce lead, and i did it twice or 3 times the duration of the study, like 9 months of taking it.

I'm not sure about bonne, how much was absorbed into bone. since it was a short exposure, les than 4 months, but really it was only at one point that i inhaled the lead particules from old painting from the wall.

so in this case of acute poisoning, less is absorbed into bone compared to chronic exposure.
 

moa

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Messages
317
Age
41
Location
France
i can't supplement magnesium orally. it disturbs my gut after a few days even best quality magnesium bisgycinate.

i think maybe related to candida overgrowth.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom