25mg Dhea Amazing Study In Men 2004

[japanesedude]

I think it is depends on age that how we react to DHEA.
I am 24yrs old man and your are much older guy.
also,I used average cheap DHEA supplements which contains many of unnecessarry ingredients.(silica,cellulose etc)
so I can't say they are good quality.

 

[Glassy]

How much did you take and how frequently? How long did you take this dose before you concluded that it increased your estrogen?

I think age has a lot to do with how you self experiment with precursor hormones and the conclusions you make from those “experiments”.

Keep in mind it’s not the affects of DHEA that you necessarily want. It’s the influence that it has on downstream hormones your body produces in response to supplementing (or overloading it in some cases) with the precursor hormones. Also keep in mind that this doesn’t generally happen quickly - it can take weeks for any affects from hormone level changes to be perceived by the individual. The exception to this might be something like progesterone that seems to be perceivable before it’s been converted into other hormones or if you take high dosages and unanticipated affects occur in dealing with the overload.

Also keep in mind that the downstream hormones produced aren’t going to be made in fixed amounts according to dosage. It’s variable and while you can influence pathways, you are upsetting an equilibrium and the presence of hormones in relation to other hormones influences what happens to them and how they are interpreted.

If you’re going to play with them, keep the dosage low and consistent. Make changes over weeks and months, not days.

 

[ilikecats]

@timrice23 you'll come back once you get gyno from your excessive DHEA supplementation lol

 

[Pablo Cruise]

@opethfeldt, Peat said 4mg is sufficient to raise DHEA levels to youthful levels ...........for a 50 yr old. At 70 on might be able take 10mg but who knows. TimRice said estrogen is not raised significantly with high doses of DHEA. You repeat that DHEA raises estrogen levels but not over normal physiological levels is Tim's point.

 

[tankasnowgod]

While 25 mg is considered a higher dose on this forum, it is low in comparison to the types of doses used and studied (50, 100, even 200mg per day). DHEA in higher doses does increase serum estrogen after administration, but this increase is transient-

Biotransformation of Oral Dehydroepiandrosterone in Elderly Men: Significant Increase in Circulating Estrogens

"After DHEA administration, serum E1 (Fig. 3A) as well as serum E2 (Fig. 3B) increased significantly in a dose-dependent manner. Peak concentrations for E1 were measured 30–720 min after DHEA administration (tmax, 3.3 ± 2.7 h for 50 mg DHEA and 3.6 ± 2.7 h for 100 mg DHEA). Serum E2 concentrations also peaked between 60–600 min after DHEA ingestion (tmax, 4.4 ± 2.5 h for 50 mg DHEA and 4.7 ± 2.3 h for 100 mg DHEA). The AUC 0–12 h after 50 mg DHEA was equivalent to 176% (E1) and 124% (E2) of baseline values, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced increase to 226% (E1) and 137% (E2) of baseline values (Table 2). The maximum concentrations measured for serum E1 and E2 were still within the normal range for men."

This study also mentions a study by Morales et al. that did not find an increase in serum estrogens, even after a 50mg daily dose for 3 months-

"In contrast to the findings of our study, Morales et al. (Effects of replacement dose of dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women of advancing age) found no increases in serum E1 and E2 in 13 men treated with a daily dose of 50 mg DHEA for 3 months. This is probably due to the selection of time points for the hormone determinations, as in their study blood for hormone measurements was drawn 12–16 h after the last preceding administration of DHEA ."

So, it may not be DHEA aromatizing, but instead, removing estrogen from tissues and kicking it into serum. So, doses higher than 5-15mg per day may still be beneficial with few estrogenic side effects.

 

[Orius]

Ray's article, which many are citing, also says that taking pregnenolone with DHEA will modulate the effects of DHEA via pregnenolone itself and through pregnenolone's conversion to the antagonist progesterone.

I would personally not take DHEA in any quantity without pregnenolone. Pregnenolone protects the thymus and thyroid from the deleterious effects of excess estrogen, and it regulates the conversion of testosterone to DHT. It also protects the brain from the impact of excess hormones.

Personally I have found a huge difference between taking DHEA on its own vs. with pregnenolone. My blood work shows robust but normal levels of all hormones. When I took DHEA on its own for a long time I had side effects but with pregnenolone that doesn't seem to happen. I take both orally, by the way.

 

[Mossy]

Ray's article, which many are citing, also says that taking pregnenolone with DHEA will modulate the effects of DHEA via pregnenolone itself and through pregnenolone's conversion to the antagonist progesterone.

I would personally not take DHEA in any quantity without pregnenolone. Pregnenolone protects the thymus and thyroid from the deleterious effects of excess estrogen, and it regulates the conversion of testosterone to DHT. It also protects the brain from the impact of excess hormones.

Personally I have found a huge difference between taking DHEA on its own vs. with pregnenolone. My blood work shows robust but normal levels of all hormones. When I took DHEA on its own for a long time I had side effects but with pregnenolone that doesn't seem to happen. I take both orally, by the way.

I would be curious to know if you always use pregnenolone with DHEA, even when taking it with progesterone.

 

[Orius]

I would be curious to know if you always use pregnenolone with DHEA, even when taking it with progesterone.

I take DHEA with pregnenolone. I don't take progesterone.

 

[Mossy]

I take DHEA with pregnenolone. I don't take progesterone.

Ok, thank you.

 

[dallascat]

I take DHEA with pregnenolone. I don't take progesterone.

Hi! What’s your dosing and do you still take these two?

 

[Brandin]

Bu

Ok i am done here, thanks for allowing me to post in the forum i have enjoyed my time here. You are clearly people who have no respect for facts and studies on dhea, even when they are thrown at you from real studies. I wont be wasting my time anymore because you sound like your under mind control or something.

Fact are,25mg dhea raises ALL hormones and benefits men, over 25mg wont. Dhea does NOT raise estrogen to anything high in males and thats also a fact and studies prove it. 1600mg of dhea does NOT raise estrogen in males enough to be of concern! I have no idea why you act like this sir when the facts are in your face. You could raises estrogen by 5ngl and NOT have issues, the male body does it all the time!

To lastly put it to you about being overweight, the more fat you have the more aromatase will kick in and make you estrogen dominant and thats fact. If people are overweight they should not take dhea if thats the case and LOSE WEIGHT! Do young people have estrogen dominance when they are young and have massive amounts of dhea? Of course they dont!

I am age 47 and have 10 percent body fat and i take it all the time! Yes im ripped from weights but so?

I wont be coming back here and posting again to try and help people because your blind to see facts, or trying to sell something to make me look wrong. Read the facts and studies and let people see the facts, DHEA does not raise estrogen to be of concern simple as that. And if you are telling people that IT DOES, your the dangerous one sir.

I bid you farewell and the forum.

but there are plenty of proof for dhea increasing estrogen

 

[tankasnowgod]

but there are plenty of proof for dhea increasing estrogen

You should post some of that proof then, especially since this thread is several years old.

It's probably still best to use lower doses, like the 5-15mg, but there may be benefits to using the 25mg dose (or maybe even higher) with an aromatase inhibitor, as mentioned in this post-

Letrozole - Experiences

Letrozole is supposed to be the strongest of all the AIs (aromatase inhibitors), and bodybuilders say it is the most effective tool against estrogen excess, and can often cure gyno by itself, without surgery. Anyone who has tried it? What was your experience? Did it help removing typical...

raypeatforum.com

The post mentions Letrozole (albeit in very tiny doses), but Exemestane would likely work as well (or better) and should be safer.

 

[cs3000]

Hi all

This is what believes me to think that low dose dhea is way better than higher dose. In the study where they gave men 50mg and 100mg the hormone profile wasnt raised at all apart from dhea and dheas.

But just look at this study i dug up that uses 25mg only and how it raised the WHOLE hormone profile of EVERYTHING.

I will be taking 25mg daily from now on because it seems low dose dhea actually works whereas higher dosages, the body does nothing with it.

Maybe an expert can come on and tell us exactly why this is? But my advice is to take 25mg or below daily to raise males hormone profiles to younger men. Anything else is a waste of time and money. Here is the study.

Where has this study been for so long and why hasnt anyone picked up on this?

Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency.

ty nice study

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13685530412331284669

So studies done in the human body, DHEA doesn't automatically raise estrogen / test because of a dose then

There's a balancing mechanism to it, hormones rise from DHEA in response to hormone deficiency.
e.g in this study, 25mg DHEA basically doubled all hormones evenly and restored to youth levels

levels rise monthly into 6-7 months for most of the effect
free test goes up 20 -> 45 by month 7
progesterone goes up .25 -> .5
allopregnenolone doubles
estrogen goes up 20 -> 40
growth hormone doubles too
cortisol pretty much the same
beta endorphines go up
igf-1 increases

And in this study it proves the balancing effect:
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), DHEA sulfate, and aging

If higher dose is supposed to shift hormone response to more of 1 hormone than the other,
then 50mg should give higher estrogen response in men right?
Well in that study they used 50mg. 6 months and only a 10% increase in estrogen & testosterone, if that, where DHEA-S levels went up a lot.
in the women Test went up ~2x and increased estrogen 40% - 50%

Because in this study unlike the first 1 the men already had adequate test levels and high estrogen levels.
higher than the women for estrogen at baseline , where the womens hormone levels were skewed low because of menopause.
and i bet like the first study progesterone levels would have rose also to match the estrogen increase.

still test went up 2x where estrogen went up 50% and they were both low.
maybe because test is near 1/10th that of the men where estrogen was 1/3rd


notice how the women >70 have lower testosterone @ 1.09  vs 1.30  in women <70.
the women <70 got less testosterone response taking it from 1.3 -> 2.3
where the women >70 got more taking it from 1.09 -> 2.35 , pretty much taking them both to same level
amazingly that looks like the body knows  what response to give pretty accurately


*So this likely shows oral dhea is safe to take for a balancing effect, if hormones are low. they rise evenly or make up for skewed ratios.
& if they are high the DHEA doesnt give much response.
i guess this is why some ppl mention higher estrogen - if Test is good and estrogen is low, the DHEA should raise the tanked estrogen preferably - which may or may not be desirable depending on persons goals, (i.e for most cancers you would want lower estrogen, but in impaired healing you might want to bring the estrogen ratio up) if Test is crashed low but estrogen is high it should preferably raise testosterone

& these studies line up with what ray peat said

side note something else i found , in people with colitis DHEA is crashed like 50%+, (low copper intake / absorption probably plays a role)
so repair slows down.
could be crashed estrogen playing a role which plays its part in cell growth. estrogen is good for wound healing
studies have shown DHEA helpful in colitis Patients with refractory Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis respond to dehydroepiandrosterone: a pilot study - PubMed)

anyway 25mg DHEA is enough for the balancing effect

 

[cs3000]

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/6/2170/2864736
acute response in this one shows some fuckery 50mg - 100mg , acutely it elevated estrogen a lot where baseline was low end around 45 pmol estradiol
but didnt raise test which was low as fuk , slight raise in free test.

idk , the 2 longer term studies show a balancing effect in similar age group. could be they dont pick up acute changes just overall baseline changes, that take longer to kick in.
so summary
DHEA has a balancing effect on baseline hormones over months , but acutely raises different depending on dose / application route.
will stick to 10mg or 12.5mg overall (would go 25mg in elderly form) (might go short window of 50mg to see if helps heal gut wounds & elevate ceruloplasmin)