Adrenal Fatigue And Hypothyroid

[Abc123]

Thank you guys! Today has been pretty terrible. Cold feet and hands all day. I was doing ok about 3 weeks ago with the meds but then started to get cold again. I'm really thinking there is something cause all this havoc rather than just the thyroid or adrenals. I'm praying for an answer on wednesday when I get my stool test results back.

Last time I had my Cholesterol checked it 219 so I did have plenty of it!

 

[managing]

I just came across this interview and thought this seemed relevant:

Josh Rubin: Ray, I got email from someone wondering about kind of starting a pro- thyroid like diet in regards to kind of what you recommend and just a couple of questions in relation to that. Does the body go through a detox when you begin that and what does it look like, would you see increased cholesterol?

Dr. Ray Peat: No, if a person has low cholesterol they shouldn't start a thyroid supplement full force because the thyroid is going to make you convert cholesterol into the liver bile acids and progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA and so on. So very low cholesterol has to be fixed before you take very much thyroid, and the fruit is the best way to raise your cholesterol up to normal but if a person has at least normal cholesterol then they tolerate a thyroid supplement very well. And if you're just starting out with a diet change, the improvement of your thyroid function is going to be very gradual usually and the first thing is to lower the production of toxins in your intestine, for example, cutting out under cooked starches, salad, leaves and such that can’t be digested and may be using a fiber such as bamboo shoots or carrots that will have a germicidal action and then avoiding all kinds of polyunsaturated fats because at every stage of thyroid function, the polyunsaturated fats block the production of the thyroid hormone transport and stimulation of the energy production inside cells. And in a short period such as two or three hours after you eat saturated fat or coconut oil or sugar can do it sometimes, you can get a momentary activation of your thyroid that fades away as soon as you start drawing out the unsaturated fats from your tissues. But to have a complete conversion from a thyroid -suppressed state to a completely normal state can take two or three years if you’ve got a lot of fat stored in your tissues. Thin people can get their thyroid going much more quickly just with the diet.

Josh Rubin: Now if they start the diet and they see their cholesterol go up, will eventually go down or is that mean they have in deficiency in like selenium, glucose or T3?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, the rising cholesterol usually means that their liver is getting enough energy to make it – that the toxins have gone down and the cholesterol is protective adaptive substance that is making up for this deficient pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA. If your thyroid is low, you won't be converting it and so it will adaptively protect you by being high. There were studies – a Framingham study found that people over 50 who had cholesterol under 200 were more likely to have dementia and people with higher cholesterol and in a rest home, nursing home study, they found that the longest lived people averaged up around 270 to 280 cholesterol. And all kinds of animal experiments showed that you protect cells, brain cells, all kinds of cells by having plenty of cholesterol. It's really a protective factor against all kinds of disease.

East West: Questions & Answers I

Awesome find @alywest . Thanks!

 

[Nicole W.]

Hello all!

I am struggling with Adrenal Fatigue, Hypothyroid, and Hashimoto's. My symptoms are Low Morning Cortisol, Low DHEA, Low Thyroid Function, Fatigue, Zero Sex Drive, Brain Fog, etc..

Do you have any good tips for healing adrenals? From what I read it's best to stay away from Sugar. And also stay away from caffeine. Is it possible to fix adrenal fatigue with Peating? (High Sugar?)

I'm current taking Pansterone 4 drops (x2 am, x2 noon)
Armour Thyroid 2grains + 50mcg T3 (May need more)
Selenium, B Vitamins, P5P 50mg, Zinc 30mg, Vit D 10,000iu, Kuinone 4.5mg, Magnesium 800mg
HCL with Pepsin (At each Meal)
Adaptocrine K2 -

• Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 100 mg

• Panax Ginseng Extract (root) 200 mg

• Ashwagandha Extract (root) 200 mg

• Holy Basil Extract (leaf) 100 mg

• Rhodiola Extract (root) 75 mg

• Eleuthero Extract (root) 50 mg

• Pantethine 50 mg

• Proprietary Blend: 78 mg* of Boerhavia extract root, Betaine HCI, Cellulase (plant enzyme), Peptidase (plant enzyme)

Recently I cut out all sugar from the diet. With the sugar in my diet I would feel warm and hot. I know that sugar is great for thyroid function. But is it burning out my adrenals and not allowing them to heal? I have done a 4x salvia test and morning cortisol is very low. Getting up in the morning is so hard no matter how long I've slept. Also SHBG is high and liver enzymes are elevated.

Thank you all in advance!

Hi there,
I've had adrenal fatigue twice in the last 6 years because of massive, unrelenting stress that just took me down. I worked with a Naturopathic doctor during this time and in the end I feel that it was worth it.
What I found out after trial and error is that I don't think it was as much my thyroid as my adrenals. We improved my adrenal function and then tried a very low dose of NDT to get my thyroid going again as she thought I might have secondary hypothyroidism due to the adrenal fatigue.
I took NDT for about 6 months, never finding a good dosage. Unfortunately, by the end of that 6 months I felt so bad I couldn't get out of bed. According to my naturopath the thyroid had an adverse affect on my cortisol levels. They dropped super low and I felt horrible. Once I stopped the thyroid, I started feeling better. So, you know... a cautionary tale.

Assuming you have adrenal fatigue, I would work on that first. Are your fingertips pale and puckered all the time? Like as if you've been in the tub or a pool for too long? Both my husband and I had this strange symptom until we were able to improve our cortisol levels. Now our fingertips are plump and pink and our energy and health is much improved so I believe that to be one small indication of whether or not your adrenals are doing ok.

That being said, I tried a lot of things to feel better and truly only a few things made a real difference for me. These are those things:

1. Vital Adapt from Health Natura. I know that people are not fond of herbs here on this forum and generally I align myself with the same point of view. However, I also believe that adaptogenic herbs have a place when it comes to addressing this illness. The tincture form of this product helped me immensely. It has a lot of the same herbs you're taking but in the proper ratios. It has licorice in it, but as my doctor pointed out it's a small amount compared to the ratio of other ingredients and there is no doubt in my mind that the ingredients in this product work synergistically- so why take 10 separate supplements when it's all it one small bottle? One and done, I always say.

2. Salt, Magnesium & Eating frequently, healthfully, enjoyably and adequately. Salt your food with quality salt and make sure you are getting enough magnesium either in diet or topically. Eating keeps energy up,... your body likes all the calories since it's doing the hard work of healing. Don't skip a snack or a meal even if you gain weight. It's ok, you're weight will level out after you are well again. I gained 20 pounds this last time but it came off slowly as I was getting better. Btw, I found increased sugar to be helpful, especially with the hypoglycemia that comes along with adrenal fatigue. I would not eliminate it.

3. Reduce stress. Ok, everyone says that but we forget about the not so obvious stressors. The subtle things that just push us slightly past our normal threshold of tolerance. It's different for everyone but for me it was it was the small aggravations of daily life that I took too seriously, scary or suspenseful shows or tv, my kids' loud music and general bull****, my husband getting upset over whatever, other people's expectations of me etc... all that stuff mounts and hinders your recovery. You can't necessarily change your circumstances but you can change your perspective. Don't underestimate how important a factor this is in getting better. Work on your point of view, it's really the only thing you have control over.

4. Time. Just so you know, it can take years to feel better. It's taken 2 years for me with this last episode with adrenal fatigue and I think I still have a little way to go. So patience and perspective are important with this illness.

Like other posters have commented, you are taking a lot of stuff, this can be really problematic if you start to feel worse. You'll have to eliminate everything and then add it back in incrementally to figure out what went wrong. I know it's tempting to throw the kitchen sink at this problem and I have for sure done that too, but I did not find that it served me.
Instead, maybe just a few well placed supplements and good health practices mentioned above might be more effective. And time, of course. It takes time to get past this.

 

[managing]

Hi there,
I've had adrenal fatigue twice in the last 6 years because of massive, unrelenting stress that just took me down. I worked with a Naturopathic doctor during this time and in the end I feel that it was worth it.
What I found out after trial and error is that I don't think it was as much my thyroid as my adrenals. We improved my adrenal function and then tried a very low dose of NDT to get my thyroid going again as she thought I might have secondary hypothyroidism due to the adrenal fatigue.
I took NDT for about 6 months, never finding a good dosage. Unfortunately, by the end of that 6 months I felt so bad I couldn't get out of bed. According to my naturopath the thyroid had an adverse affect on my cortisol levels. They dropped super low and I felt horrible. Once I stopped the thyroid, I started feeling better. So, you know... a cautionary tale.

Assuming you have adrenal fatigue, I would work on that first. Are your fingertips pale and puckered all the time? Like as if you've been in the tub or a pool for too long? Both my husband and I had this strange symptom until we were able to improve our cortisol levels. Now our fingertips are plump and pink and our energy and health is much improved so I believe that to be one small indication of whether or not your adrenals are doing ok.

That being said, I tried a lot of things to feel better and truly only a few things made a real difference for me. These are those things:

1. Vital Adapt from Health Natura. I know that people are not fond of herbs here on this forum and generally I align myself with the same point of view. However, I also believe that adaptogenic herbs have a place when it comes to addressing this illness. The tincture form of this product helped me immensely. It has a lot of the same herbs you're taking but in the proper ratios. It has licorice in it, but as my doctor pointed out it's a small amount compared to the ratio of other ingredients and there is no doubt in my mind that the ingredients in this product work synergistically- so why take 10 separate supplements when it's all it one small bottle? One and done, I always say.

2. Salt, Magnesium & Eating frequently, healthfully, enjoyably and adequately. Salt your food with quality salt and make sure you are getting enough magnesium either in diet or topically. Eating keeps energy up,... your body likes all the calories since it's doing the hard work of healing. Don't skip a snack or a meal even if you gain weight. It's ok, you're weight will level out after you are well again. I gained 20 pounds this last time but it came off slowly as I was getting better. Btw, I found increased sugar to be helpful, especially with the hypoglycemia that comes along with adrenal fatigue. I would not eliminate it.

3. Reduce stress. Ok, everyone says that but we forget about the not so obvious stressors. The subtle things that just push us slightly past our normal threshold of tolerance. It's different for everyone but for me it was it was the small aggravations of daily life that I took too seriously, scary or suspenseful shows or tv, my kids' loud music and general bull****, my husband getting upset over whatever, other people's expectations of me etc... all that stuff mounts and hinders your recovery. You can't necessarily change your circumstances but you can change your perspective. Don't underestimate how important a factor this is in getting better. Work on your point of view, it's really the only thing you have control over.

4. Time. Just so you know, it can take years to feel better. It's taken 2 years for me with this last episode with adrenal fatigue and I think I still have a little way to go. So patience and perspective are important with this illness.

Like other posters have commented, you are taking a lot of stuff, this can be really problematic if you start to feel worse. You'll have to eliminate everything and then add it back in incrementally to figure out what went wrong. I know it's tempting to throw the kitchen sink at this problem and I have for sure done that too, but I did not find that it served me.
Instead, maybe just a few well placed supplements and good health practices mentioned above might be more effective. And time, of course. It takes time to get past this.

I want to reinforce the part everybody here is agreeing with: One thing at a time. Cut back to one thing. Try with. Try without. Which is better? Get stable for 2 weeks minimum. Add something. And so on.

 

[alywest]

Awesome find @alywest . Thanks!

You're so welcome :) The whole interview is pretty great; I've been reading it all evening!

 

[Abc123]

Everyone here is so great! Thank you again to all! After all my experiences with the thyroid hormone I have just ended up worse. I wonder if it's just working against me and screwing up the feedback loop. Each time I take it, it makes me cold. There has to be something wrong. My brain fog is extremely bad and I forget so often. Just even typing these sentences up, I have to really think of what to type.

 

[alywest]

Everyone here is so great! Thank you again to all! After all my experiences with the thyroid hormone I have just ended up worse. I wonder if it's just working against me and screwing up the feedback loop. Each time I take it, it makes me cold. There has to be something wrong. My brain fog is extremely bad and I forget so often. Just even typing these sentences up, I have to really think of what to type.

Read through this
Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

 

[managing]

Just came across this and parts of it are extremely informative to this discussion. Emphasis added.

"Do not be fooled into taking any kind of cortisone (cortisol) drug, such as Cortef, Prednisone or any other mimic. Most patients are given between 15 and 35 mg of cortisone and some as much as 60 mg daily. According to Dr. Ray Peat, “The body normally produces only about 20mg of cortisol daily, so 20 mg is enough to cause the adrenals to shrink. This therapy is dangerous, since low adrenal function is usually a consequence of hypothyroidism and taking cortisol turns it into an actual glandular atrophy. If we can produce enough pregnenolone, we hardly need cortisol. It’s just good to have available for emergencies.”"

http://www.litalee.com/shopexd.asp?id=171

 

[alywest]

Just came across this and parts of it are extremely informative to this discussion. Emphasis added.

"Do not be fooled into taking any kind of cortisone (cortisol) drug, such as Cortef, Prednisone or any other mimic. Most patients are given between 15 and 35 mg of cortisone and some as much as 60 mg daily. According to Dr. Ray Peat, “The body normally produces only about 20mg of cortisol daily, so 20 mg is enough to cause the adrenals to shrink. This therapy is dangerous, since low adrenal function is usually a consequence of hypothyroidism and taking cortisol turns it into an actual glandular atrophy. If we can produce enough pregnenolone, we hardly need cortisol. It’s just good to have available for emergencies.”"

To Your Health - October 1999

Great link @managing, as Lita Lee mentions pregnenalone, progesterone and thyroid being the way to wean yourself off corisone as well.

I just took a really large dose of pregnenalone yesterday and I've read other people (men specifically) say they need to take upwards of 800 mg to feel ok. I know the OP mentioned using pansterone which is a small does of pregnenalone and dhea together so I wouldn't recommend upping that too much, but pregnenalone powder can work wonders, especially with the right thyroid supp and a small amount of vit a. I think those are the foundations of all the other hormones and energy. What do you think? I know you've said in this thread to stick with thyroid until improvement happens, but in my case I required progesterone to stabilize my estrogen dominance. Pregnenalone has been surprising in that it's very helpful with energy production in the larger doses. Progesterone is obviously a bit more sleep-inducing, although I do recommend it at night before bed for someone who's in bad shape like the OP.

 

[managing]

Great link @managing, as Lita Lee mentions pregnenalone, progesterone and thyroid being the way to wean yourself off corisone as well.

I just took a really large dose of pregnenalone yesterday and I've read other people (men specifically) say they need to take upwards of 800 mg to feel ok. I know the OP mentioned using pansterone which is a small does of pregnenalone and dhea together so I wouldn't recommend upping that too much, but pregnenalone powder can work wonders, especially with the right thyroid supp and a small amount of vit a. I think those are the foundations of all the other hormones and energy. What do you think? I know you've said in this thread to stick with thyroid until improvement happens, but in my case I required progesterone to stabilize my estrogen dominance. Pregnenalone has been surprising in that it's very helpful with energy production in the larger doses. Progesterone is obviously a bit more sleep-inducing, although I do recommend it at night before bed for someone who's in bad shape like the OP.

Quick Question: Do you mean 800mg? Or is that a typo? I think RP recommends not greater than 30mg? Or am I misremembering, which is entirely possible.

So the biggest difference between you and I (and the OP ) is gender. I am not one that thinks that progesterone is always wrong for men. But when it comes to prog gender def matters. In more recent quotes, RP favors preg and dhea together. But he definitely says keep the dhea dose low (=<5mg I believe). So extra dhea shouldn't come in the form of Pansterone.

Bringing up Vit A is good point. I always take a little dessicated liver with thyroid or any hormone really. 1 capsule 3-4 x week is sufficient for me.

 

[alywest]

Quick Question: Do you mean 800mg? Or is that a typo? I think RP recommends not greater than 30mg? Or am I misremembering, which is entirely possible.

So the biggest difference between you and I (and the OP ) is gender. I am not one that thinks that progesterone is always wrong for men. But when it comes to prog gender def matters. In more recent quotes, RP favors preg and dhea together. But he definitely says keep the dhea dose low (=<5mg I believe). So extra dhea shouldn't come in the form of Pansterone.

Bringing up Vit A is good point. I always take a little dessicated liver with thyroid or any hormone really. 1 capsule 3-4 x week is sufficient for me.

Yeah, 800! I know it sounds like an insane amount, but you wouldn't believe how much energy I have. This is opposed to me taking progesterone all day everyday and feeling somewhat sleepy all day, but I agree that was because I'm female and my estrogen dominance spikes at certain times of the month and I required it. But it was men who were saying 800 mg (I believe it was DaveFoster who said between 800-1200.) So I am experimenting with pregnenalone through the day and progesterone at night. However, I took some pregnenalone too late in the day yesterday and I was too energetic to sleep which NEVER happens. I'm usually in bed, asleep, by 9. Yet I don't feel jittery or wired. I also take about 50mcg of t3 (tyronene) throughout the day and about 25 mcg of t4 (levothyroxine; for some reason more gives me a headache.)

 

[alywest]

"I've found large doses of pregnenolone to be very helpful to counter depression and low energy levels. I don't feel anything until I get above 400 mg, and I need about 800 mg - 1.2 grams to feel "okay." "

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...ues-and-i-am-not-making-progress.18796/page-2

 

[managing]

"I've found large doses of pregnenolone to be very helpful to counter depression and low energy levels. I don't feel anything until I get above 400 mg, and I need about 800 mg - 1.2 grams to feel "okay." "

"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

Yeah, after I wrote that I remembered RP talking about huge doses and how there were basically no side effects. I haven't taken Preg in a long time.

 

[alywest]

If a large amount of pregnenolone above one gram daily is needed to lower the pulse and make one feel good and relaxed, does this indicate a thyroid deficiency or should one continue to take the larger amounts of pregnenolone?

"I think large amounts like that (I averaged about 3 grams/day for a year) are acting to inhibit inflammation and shift water balances, as well as inhibiting the stress hormones via the GABA system. Reducing sources of inflammation (for me it was grains and starches mostly) as well as regulating thyroid can take the place of the pregnenolone."
______________________________________________________________________
You mention a period of 2-3 weeks for adrenaline to come down from thyroid. During this time, should the person suspend the thyroid dose or continue taking it?

"If you start with a small dose, you can usually increase it slightly at intervals of about two weeks while keeping the pulse fairly steady. Other things that improve glucose metabolism help to lower the stress hormones."

I've found pregnenolone, progesterone, and activated charcoal particularly helpful.

^^This is from the Ray Peat Email Q & A depository thread, and I thought both of these questions and answers (both responses are from Ray Peat himself) to be relevant to your situation.

Have you been taking your temps and pulse in the am and then throughout the day? If your temps go down after breakfast that means that your temp first thing in the morning when you wake is falsely elevated due to adrenaline.

Check out this thyroid testing protocol that you do at home using temps and pulse:

The Barnes Basal Body Temperature Test:

This should give you a good marker of your thyroid levels throughout the day so you don't have to keep guessing and relying on blood tests from the doctor.

 

[alywest]

BTW this is the type of progesterone I've been talking about. It's pricey, but it's high quality:

Pure pregnenolone 50 grams

 

[Abc123]

^^This is from the Ray Peat Email Q & A depository thread, and I thought both of these questions and answers (both responses are from Ray Peat himself) to be relevant to your situation.

Have you been taking your temps and pulse in the am and then throughout the day? If your temps go down after breakfast that means that your temp first thing in the morning when you wake is falsely elevated due to adrenaline.

Check out this thyroid testing protocol that you do at home using temps and pulse:

The Barnes Basal Body Temperature Test:

This should give you a good marker of your thyroid levels throughout the day so you don't have to keep guessing and relying on blood tests from the doctor.

I have been taking my temps. Morning temp is always between 96.8-97.0 Then afternoon is between 97.2-97.5

I really do feel I have to omit sugar from my diet and go higher fat/lower carb route. I know this is against the ray peat way. But I can manage my blood sugar more optimal this way. But still keeping PUFU low and saturated fats high. I know there is no Right or Wrong way and every individual is different.

 

[alywest]

I have been taking my temps. Morning temp is always between 96.8-97.0 Then afternoon is between 97.2-97.5

I really do feel I have to omit sugar from my diet and go higher fat/lower carb route. I know this is against the ray peat way. But I can manage my blood sugar more optimal this way. But still keeping PUFU low and saturated fats high. I know there is no Right or Wrong way and every individual is different.

No worries! It can be difficult to handle a lot of sugar if your metabolism/endotoxin is out of whack, so maybe when you get back to a more normal place you can add more carbs. Hope you figure things out, keep us posted!

 

[Abc123]

No worries! It can be difficult to handle a lot of sugar if your metabolism/endotoxin is out of whack, so maybe when you get back to a more normal place you can add more carbs. Hope you figure things out, keep us posted!

I definitely will thank you! I will report back after I hear from my DR about the Stool Sample I took. I'm hoping for the best!
You guys are awesome!

 

[alywest]

I definitely will thank you! I will report back after I hear from my DR about the Stool Sample I took. I'm hoping for the best!
You guys are awesome!

Thanks, you are too! You'll get through this, I know it's tough

 

[managing]

from the josh rubin interview with RP @alywest posted:

" . I experimented on myself taking 25 micrograms at a time and after two or three weeks of doing that, 12 hours later if I didn't take another dose I would go into a very intense hypothyroid state with my heart stopping every six seconds or so. And that would – 30 seconds after I took more T3 that would get regular again. But if you take your 10 micrograms with a meal, the food is going to delay its absorption so you get maybe two or 3 micrograms each hour and so 10 with each meal is pretty smooth way to take it. If a person…"