How could Ray be so dogmatic about estrogen ?

[Blaze]

I understand. And I’m sure me and ray are actually more on the same page then it seems. Just imo he implies estrogen is directly causing the issues. Whereas elevated estrogen is really the symptom and not the caus s

Challenging ideas respectfully is a good thing, no issue with you at all there , but it is truly a David vs. Goliath moment when you take on Ray. Lol, so come prepared. Bring your biggest slingshot. You'll need it.

 

[Andrea Lucia]

Ray is brilliant. His overall idea of energy metabolism is just spot on. But I’m wondering how in 2022 he is still so wrong about estrogen? I guess I should say why does he not seperate the idea of synthetic estrogens and just natural bio identical estrogen and e2 levels.

He constantly throws estrogen in the same boat as cortisol prolactin addrenaline etc. it is now widely known that estrogen is neuroprotective and cardio protective. Is it wise to have sky high estrogen and tanked progesterone as a female? No of course not. Is it going to be favorable to have low T and sky high estrogen ? Of course not.

In interviews he constantly says “oh estrogen” blaming it for damn near everything and it’s so off. You have to factor in the androgen to estrogen ratio. As a man Estrogen should follow Testosterone as e2 is responsible for many of the therapeutic effects of Test. How do we know this? Bc you can keep the Test sky high but then lower estrogen and feel worse. High T and high E is what you want.

As a man, it’s literally the opposite of what he says . When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold, . High E just feels amazing , warm and cozy when coupled w high androgens. Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?

Bloating , acne , high blood pressure , emotional ? High estrogen sides? That’s the RAS system, vitamin A deficiency , insulin resistance, prolactin. Sure as hell ain’t estrogen.

When becoming transgender men are allowed to have 300+e2 levels. AND they tank Testosterone. So you’re telling me with mid normal or in range testosterone levels an e2 of 40 ish is high? Cmon.

If you have lots of problemtic estrogenic issues bc of pufas or birth control that’s another story ? But Rly id just up my magnesium, liver health, coffee, vitamin E, glycine.

Low estrogen is the HALLMARK of anhedonia. Are some ppl estrogen dominant ? Yea of course. It’s rly just their progesterone or T is too low and not estrogen being high but whatver. Blindly telling ppl to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong.

Also the higher my estrogen the better my cholesterol and thryoid. When I’m low E my thyroid and cholesterol become abysmal , likely due to just overall stress on the system and low energy do to

Ray is brilliant. His overall idea of energy metabolism is just spot on. But I’m wondering how in 2022 he is still so wrong about estrogen? I guess I should say why does he not seperate the idea of synthetic estrogens and just natural bio identical estrogen and e2 levels.

He constantly throws estrogen in the same boat as cortisol prolactin addrenaline etc. it is now widely known that estrogen is neuroprotective and cardio protective. Is it wise to have sky high estrogen and tanked progesterone as a female? No of course not. Is it going to be favorable to have low T and sky high estrogen ? Of course not.

In interviews he constantly says “oh estrogen” blaming it for damn near everything and it’s so off. You have to factor in the androgen to estrogen ratio. As a man Estrogen should follow Testosterone as e2 is responsible for many of the therapeutic effects of Test. How do we know this? Bc you can keep the Test sky high but then lower estrogen and feel worse. High T and high E is what you want.

As a man, it’s literally the opposite of what he says . When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold, . High E just feels amazing , warm and cozy when coupled w high androgens. Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?

Bloating , acne , high blood pressure , emotional ? High estrogen sides? That’s the RAS system, vitamin A deficiency , insulin resistance, prolactin. Sure as hell ain’t estrogen.

When becoming transgender men are allowed to have 300+e2 levels. AND they tank Testosterone. So you’re telling me with mid normal or in range testosterone levels an e2 of 40 ish is high? Cmon.

If you have lots of problemtic estrogenic issues bc of pufas or birth control that’s another story ? But Rly id just up my magnesium, liver health, coffee, vitamin E, glycine.

Low estrogen is the HALLMARK of anhedonia. Are some ppl estrogen dominant ? Yea of course. It’s rly just their progesterone or T is too low and not estrogen being high but whatver. Blindly telling ppl to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong.

Also the higher my estrogen the better my cholesterol and thryoid. When I’m low E my thyroid and cholesterol become abysmal , likely due to just overall stress on the system and low energy do to low estrogen

"When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold" These are all symptoms of low thyroid and many more!

"Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?"
Is it safe to say any one of the hormones being too high or too low means they are not balanced? What's healthy about that?

If you haven't read Broda Barnes' book : Hypothyroidism, the unsuspected illness, I encourage it. It's an excellent source of information that helps put more of Ray's work into perspective.

Again, the health of the heart & respiratory system translates to a healthy thyroid.
And, it's clear that that getting blood work done is not as accurate as what your body is telling you.

Are you taking your own pulse & temp first thing in the morning, again 10-15 minutes after each meal and recording that ?
Have you done that for 2 solid weeks?
This would be the most accurate way to know what's happening with your cortisol and thyroid function.

Your symptoms point to low thyroid function, not low estrogen.

 

[Lancaster]

The majority of the data demonstrating harm from estrogen is baseline association, i.e., people with [insert disease] are found to have significantly higher levels of serum estrogen than healthy controls, or from synthetic estrogens and progestins, not the bioidenticals.

Two issues here:

1.) almost all degenerative and/or age-related diseases are characterized by chronic inflammation, with inflammation directly upregulating aromatase activity whilst simultaneously impairing hepatic estrogen metabolism. In accordance, it's far, far more likely that the underlying state of poor health is causing both the elevated estrogen and the disease state, hence why they are seen to occur together. However, a large proportion of this forum fails to understand this and points toward association data as proof of causation re: estrogen directly causing said disease.

2.) people here happily point toward harm from synthetic estrogens as blanket evidence that all estrogens are harmful (example: the women's health initiative), yet when a study is posted demonstrating harm from synthetic progestins everybody is quick to point out that progestin =/= bioidentical progesterone.

You'll be hard-pressed to find an interventional paper (either where estrogen is increased via testosterone administration and/or E2 is given directly) demonstrating harm in men. Conversely, you can find an abundance of evidence showing immense harm from blocking aromatase via high-dose AI.

It's the underlying pathology producing the elevated estrogen that's the issue, not the estrogen itself.

 

[tommyg130]

"When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold" These are all symptoms of low thyroid and many more!

"Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?"
Is it safe to say any one of the hormones being too high or too low means they are not balanced? What's healthy about that?

If you haven't read Broda Barnes' book : Hypothyroidism, the unsuspected illness, I encourage it. It's an excellent source of information that helps put more of Ray's work into perspective.

Again, the health of the heart & respiratory system translates to a healthy thyroid.
And, it's clear that that getting blood work done is not as accurate as what your body is telling you.

Are you taking your own pulse & temp first thing in the morning, again 10-15 minutes after each meal and recording that ?
Have you done that for 2 solid weeks?
This would be the most accurate way to know what's happening with your cortisol and thyroid function.

Your symptoms point to low thyroid function, not low estrogen.

I hear you , but my thyroid health is in chec

The majority of the data demonstrating harm from estrogen is baseline association, i.e., people with [insert disease] are found to have significantly higher levels of serum estrogen than healthy controls, or from synthetic estrogens and progestins, not the bioidenticals.

Two issues here:

1.) almost all degenerative and/or age-related diseases are characterized by chronic inflammation, with inflammation directly upregulating aromatase activity whilst simultaneously impairing hepatic estrogen metabolism. In accordance, it's far, far more likely that the underlying state of poor health is causing both the elevated estrogen and the disease state, hence why they are seen to occur together. However, a large proportion of this forum fails to understand this and points toward association data as proof of causation re: estrogen directly causing said disease.

2.) people here happily point toward harm from synthetic estrogens as blanket evidence that all estrogens are harmful (example: the women's health initiative), yet when a study is posted demonstrating harm from synthetic progestins everybody is quick to point out that progestin =/= bioidentical progesterone.

You'll be hard-pressed to find an interventional paper (either where estrogen is increased via testosterone administration and/or E2 is given directly) demonstrating harm in men. Conversely, you can find an abundance of evidence showing immense harm from blocking aromatase activity in breast cancer patients given high-dose AI.

It's the underlying issue producing the elevated estrogen that's the issue, not the estrogen itself.

yes exactly. That is precisely what I said in this post and comments. Thankfully someone can at least entertain the idea that estrogen isn’t Evil. IMMENSE harm from blocking estrogen. And whenever I say low E causes issues previous times on this forumn, it gets gaslighted and said that they are low thyroid symptoms.

If they listened to any parties aside from this forum they would hear from multiple solid sources that estrogen is protective

 

[Doer]

The majority of the data demonstrating harm from estrogen is baseline association, i.e., people with [insert disease] are found to have significantly higher levels of serum estrogen than healthy controls, or from synthetic estrogens and progestins, not the bioidenticals.

Two issues here:

1.) almost all degenerative and/or age-related diseases are characterized by chronic inflammation, with inflammation directly upregulating aromatase activity whilst simultaneously impairing hepatic estrogen metabolism. In accordance, it's far, far more likely that the underlying state of poor health is causing both the elevated estrogen and the disease state, hence why they are seen to occur together. However, a large proportion of this forum fails to understand this and points toward association data as proof of causation re: estrogen directly causing said disease.

2.) people here happily point toward harm from synthetic estrogens as blanket evidence that all estrogens are harmful (example: the women's health initiative), yet when a study is posted demonstrating harm from synthetic progestins everybody is quick to point out that progestin =/= bioidentical progesterone.

You'll be hard-pressed to find an interventional paper (either where estrogen is increased via testosterone administration and/or E2 is given directly) demonstrating harm in men. Conversely, you can find an abundance of evidence showing immense harm from blocking aromatase via high-dose AI.

It's the underlying pathology producing the elevated estrogen that's the issue, not the estrogen itself.

Makes so much sense, great post!

 

[RealNeat]

This is like saying PUFA is not damaging if the ratio is in favor of saturated to unsaturated. Its kind of true but also misleading. Our body has a hard time producing inflammation without PUFA and it's better if it's not consumed in the first place. You could argue about PUFA from natural foods vs PUFA from processed seed oils but it doesn't really change the physiological response to the PUFA, even if accompanied by some protective compounds. It doesn't need to be there, especially when the body can produce mead acid if unsaturation is needed. Its parallel to estrogen.

 

[Lancaster]

This is like saying PUFA is not damaging if the ratio is in favor of saturated to unsaturated. Its kind of true but also misleading. Our body has a hard time producing inflammation without PUFA and it's better if it's not consumed in the first place. You could argue about PUFA from natural foods vs PUFA from processed seed oils but it doesn't really change the physiological response to the PUFA, even if accompanied by some protective compounds. It doesn't need to be there, especially when the body can produce mead acid if unsaturation is needed. Its parallel to estrogen.

Those two things are nothing alike.
There is interventional data demonstrating negative outcomes from PUFA intake.
There is no interventional data demonstrating harm from increasing estrogen via testosterone administration.
One is given and bad things happen; one is given and good things happen.
That is not parallel.
If you can show me a paper that demonstrates increased estrogen alongside increased testosterone demonstrates harm I am more than happy to change my views, but I am yet to come across that paper.

 

[RealNeat]

Those two things are nothing alike.
There is interventional data demonstrating negative outcomes from PUFA intake.
There is no interventional data demonstrating harm from increasing estrogen via testosterone administration.
One is given and bad things happen; one is given and good things happen.
That is not parallel.
If you can show me a paper that demonstrates increased estrogen alongside increased testosterone demonstrates harm I am more than happy to change my views, but I am yet to come across that paper.

ok lets pretend estrogen and PUFA arent intimately connected, what about women who have almost 15 times less T than men, is estrogen a benign bystander in that case too?

 

[Lancaster]

ok lets pretend estrogen and PUFA arent intimately connected, what about women who have almost 15 times less T than men, is estrogen a benign bystander in that case too?

This thread is pertaining to estrogen in men on testosterone replacement.
Androgens oppose the actions of estrogen in men and the two rise in unison on testosterone replacement.
Progesterone serves as the primary estrogen antagonist in females.
Yes, low progesterone and unopposed action of estrogen are an issue.
However, if high progesterone + high estrogen in women is not problematic, but low progesterone and high estrogen in women are problematic, the core issue is low progesterone + the state producing progesterone deficiency, not the high estrogen.
Despite this, everyone tries to blame all the issues seen in this state on estrogen, but it's not estrogen.
The same applies to testosterone and estrogen in men.
The data clearly shows that high estrogen + low androgens at baseline is harmful.
Yet when you raise both androgens and estrogens together with testosterone replacement, you only see positive outcomes in the interventional data.
In accordance, the issue is low androgens, not high estrogens.
This entire issue is the inability to distinguish between baseline association and direct causation.

 

[TAG145]

View attachment 42087

I believe that the levels in the serum are simply useless values, we would need intracerebral and cerebrospinal values as well as of course the symptoms. There can be fluctuating values depending on the tissue / organ ... let's not focus only on muscle and adipose tissue ...

I noticed too much superficiality in this forum

Thank you for this graph. I am a female, entering menopause with history of endometriosis. For the last 30 years, I've been doing everything to keep estrogen low so that it would not feed endometriosis. This would include taking DIM, Vitex, progesterone, organic dairy, non-processed foods, good quality water, etc. I have been under the idea that most of us are estrogen dominant and there is no way to really know your estrogen levels because it is stored in our fat. I've taken saliva tests and blood tests all show that I am low estrogen, but again, that is not supposed to be accurate. I do have abdominal fat that I cannot get rid of, so it makes sense that I have estrogen stored in my abdomen. I began having major hot flashes last year, which happened just as I switched my thyroid meds to a compounded T4/T3 combination with no fillers. I thought it was playing a role in the hot flashes, but when I adjusted my thyroid dose, those went away. Now, the hot flashes recurred again this year--a few months ago. In my own experiments, every time I would increase progesterone, hot flashes would get worse. From what I understand, it seems to be the common thought that progesterone is the answer and estrogen is always evil. I think I may be one of the few who do need to raise their estrogen levels, but I am scared to do that and don't really know the best way to do it. It is very hard to find solid information about supplementing estrogen from a trusted source.

 

[Blossom]

In my own experiments, every time I would increase progesterone, hot flashes would get worse.

That’s what happened to me during menopause and I had to switch gears and eventually dramatically reduce my progesterone dose. Currently I only take it once or twice a month and then I’m mainly using it to help sleep. I’m pretty sure that after everything I’ve done over the years that I don’t have estrogen dominance. It’s still very confusing but I suppose that’s why it’s called “The change” and for some of us if we aren’t willing to adapt to our changing circumstances it can be quite uncomfortable. I’ve found most of the guidance out there on menopause to be sorely lacking tbh.

 

[Risingfire]

Many people in the US are high estrogen. Just look around and it's easy to tell. Peat never suggested to lower your estrogen when you already have optimal levels. He is prescribing that in specific situations based on tons of research. It's becoming blatantly obvious the majority of people on this forum have never read an article on raypeat.com

 

[Blossom]

@Risingfire, do you think it’s possible for someone who has been applying Peat principles for many years to reverse estrogen dominance? I’m genuinely curious on your perspective because I value your experience and insight on hormones. I know for me the things I used to need to keep estrogen in check no longer seem necessary.

 

[gaze]

That’s what happened to me during menopause and I had to switch gears and eventually dramatically reduce my progesterone dose. Currently I only take it once or twice a month and then I’m mainly using it to help sleep. I’m pretty sure that after everything I’ve done over the years that I don’t have estrogen dominance. It’s still very confusing but I suppose that’s why it’s called “The change” and for some of us if we aren’t willing to adapt to our changing circumstances it can be quite uncomfortable. I’ve found most of the guidance out there on menopause to be sorely lacking tbh.

did you ever try topical progest e using 10x the oral dose? its not very economical, but i think even a single drop orally can cause hot flashes due to the intestinal irritation. ray himself never used it orally, not even rubbed into the gums. the vitamin E could potentially cause it to.

 

[Blossom]

@gaze, no I didn’t! Thanks for the tip.

 

[Risingfire]

@Risingfire, do you think it’s possible for someone who has been applying Peat principles for many years to reverse estrogen dominance? I’m genuinely curious on your perspective because I value your experience and insight on hormones. I know for me the things I used to need to keep estrogen in check no longer seem necessary.

Thanks for the kind words, @Blossom! I do think it's possible. When I started adding in progesterone it reduced the size of my legs and butt(probably consisted of excess water). Though I think it depends on the individual. I've noticed I needed less intervention from supplements/compounds/etc. the longer I've "peated." I would probably take progesterone more consistently if it didn't have side effects for men.

While I don't have concrete evidence, I do think wifi, radiation and cell phone usage is increasing estrogen and reducing progesterone in first world countries. I generally take progest-E or cortinon once a week to reduce the harmful effects. Progesterone is a calcium channel blocker(along with magnesium and K2). Wifi seems to disrupt this channel. Sorry to go off on a tangent but this has been on my mind lately.

 

[Blossom]

@Risingfire, no apologies necessary! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.

 

[TAG145]

Thank you Blossom. It helps to know that others have experience similar reaction to progesterone.

@Risingfire: sorry but I didn’t say that dr.Peat said anyone should lower estrogen if their level is optimal…it really isn’t about the level by itself either. It is the ratio that matters. I have read and reread Dr.Peats articles, still not much about dealing with low estrogen levels because he is saying most people are estrogen dominant…wouldn’t that then mean most of the time peopl are not optimal? There are still many unknowns when it comes to hormones as it relates to menopause and I’m trying to reach out to those who might be able to offer some help or advice.

 

[Waynish]

Reductionism. These are inuendos for processes and effects they've agreed upon being caused by a single invisible cause. No one has ever seen it because it is too small to photograph, even with electron microscopy. It is by definition more reductionist than genetics.

 

[Risingfire]

Thank you Blossom. It helps to know that others have experience similar reaction to progesterone.

@Risingfire: sorry but I didn’t say that dr.Peat said anyone should lower estrogen if their level is optimal…it really isn’t about the level by itself either. It is the ratio that matters. I have read and reread Dr.Peats articles, still not much about dealing with low estrogen levels because he is saying most people are estrogen dominant…wouldn’t that then mean most of the time peopl are not optimal? There are still many unknowns when it comes to hormones as it relates to menopause and I’m trying to reach out to those who might be able to offer some help or advice.

@TAG145 I think Ray would say many people over 30/40 are estrogen dominant and specifically point to prolactin. Estrogen high in the tissues