How could Ray be so dogmatic about estrogen ?

[tommyg130]

Ray is brilliant. His overall idea of energy metabolism is just spot on. But I’m wondering how in 2022 he is still so wrong about estrogen? I guess I should say why does he not seperate the idea of synthetic estrogens and just natural bio identical estrogen and e2 levels.

He constantly throws estrogen in the same boat as cortisol prolactin addrenaline etc. it is now widely known that estrogen is neuroprotective and cardio protective. Is it wise to have sky high estrogen and tanked progesterone as a female? No of course not. Is it going to be favorable to have low T and sky high estrogen ? Of course not.

In interviews he constantly says “oh estrogen” blaming it for damn near everything and it’s so off. You have to factor in the androgen to estrogen ratio. As a man Estrogen should follow Testosterone as e2 is responsible for many of the therapeutic effects of Test. How do we know this? Bc you can keep the Test sky high but then lower estrogen and feel worse. High T and high E is what you want.

As a man, it’s literally the opposite of what he says . When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold, . High E just feels amazing , warm and cozy when coupled w high androgens. Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?

Bloating , acne , high blood pressure , emotional ? High estrogen sides? That’s the RAS system, vitamin A deficiency , insulin resistance, prolactin. Sure as hell ain’t estrogen.

When becoming transgender men are allowed to have 300+e2 levels. AND they tank Testosterone. So you’re telling me with mid normal or in range testosterone levels an e2 of 40 ish is high? Cmon.

If you have lots of problemtic estrogenic issues bc of pufas or birth control that’s another story ? But Rly id just up my magnesium, liver health, coffee, vitamin E, glycine.

Low estrogen is the HALLMARK of anhedonia. Are some ppl estrogen dominant ? Yea of course. It’s rly just their progesterone or T is too low and not estrogen being high but whatver. Blindly telling ppl to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong.

Also the higher my estrogen the better my cholesterol and thryoid. When I’m low E my thyroid and cholesterol become abysmal , likely due to just overall stress on the system and low energy do to low estrogen

 

[InChristAlone]

Aren't there good estrogen and bad estrogen? The youthful estradiol is the one we would want.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Low estrogen is the HALLMARK of anhedonia

That’s new to me. Any references?

Aren't there good estrogen and bad estrogen? The youthful estradiol is the one we would want.

yes and no. There are only functions of any given form within a physiological context.

There is no „too high/too low“ in our organism. There are ratios in different tissues that don’t reflect a „as a whole“ quantitative state.

And even if Estradiol might be beneficial in some contextes it can be metabolized, altered enzymatically, alter ratios of other steroids etc….

Steroids can’t be regarded isolated

 

[PxD]

Ray is brilliant. His overall idea of energy metabolism is just spot on. But I’m wondering how in 2022 he is still so wrong about estrogen? I guess I should say why does he not seperate the idea of synthetic estrogens and just natural bio identical estrogen and e2 levels.

He constantly throws estrogen in the same boat as cortisol prolactin addrenaline etc. it is now widely known that estrogen is neuroprotective and cardio protective. Is it wise to have sky high estrogen and tanked progesterone as a female? No of course not. Is it going to be favorable to have low T and sky high estrogen ? Of course not.

In interviews he constantly says “oh estrogen” blaming it for damn near everything and it’s so off. You have to factor in the androgen to estrogen ratio. As a man Estrogen should follow Testosterone as e2 is responsible for many of the therapeutic effects of Test. How do we know this? Bc you can keep the Test sky high but then lower estrogen and feel worse. High T and high E is what you want.

As a man, it’s literally the opposite of what he says . When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold, . High E just feels amazing , warm and cozy when coupled w high androgens. Why do you think many body builders die on stage or suffer from serious issues close to show Day. It’s undoubtedly tanked E that leads to cardiovascular issues. High E? Are you kidding. High estrogen is known to make you feel great?

Bloating , acne , high blood pressure , emotional ? High estrogen sides? That’s the RAS system, vitamin A deficiency , insulin resistance, prolactin. Sure as hell ain’t estrogen.

When becoming transgender men are allowed to have 300+e2 levels. AND they tank Testosterone. So you’re telling me with mid normal or in range testosterone levels an e2 of 40 ish is high? Cmon.

If you have lots of problemtic estrogenic issues bc of pufas or birth control that’s another story ? But Rly id just up my magnesium, liver health, coffee, vitamin E, glycine.

Low estrogen is the HALLMARK of anhedonia. Are some ppl estrogen dominant ? Yea of course. It’s rly just their progesterone or T is too low and not estrogen being high but whatver. Blindly telling ppl to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong.

Also the higher my estrogen the better my cholesterol and thryoid. When I’m low E my thyroid and cholesterol become abysmal , likely due to just overall stress on the system and low energy do to low estrogen

All of the benefits you're describing (feeling great in a variety of ways) happened to me when I roughly doubled my T from ~350 to over 600 back in 2016-2017. My estrogen stayed where it was, so the ratio increased.

You're claiming that higher estrogen (all other things equal) lowers risk of heart disease, makes people feel better, improves metabolism and energy production, etc. Would love to see references for the body of research on that.

 

[cs3000]

When I drive my E down, I get horribly weak, chest pains , can’t breathe, cold, . High E just feels amazing , warm and cozy when coupled w high androgens.

How did you get your estradiol back up after driving it down?

it might be harmful to have a lot around (haven't dived into that yet but seen some stuff on link to cancer etc), but tanking it probably isnt good idea either.

estrogen is linked to cortisol
Effects of estrogen versus estrogen and progesterone on cortisol and interleukin-6 the ERT group showed a significant increase in cortisol levels when comparing baseline and post treatment

i get the sense people who are typically low on cortisol feel like absolute dog diarrhea when tanking estrogen. 2 ways to test this could be high dose Vitamin E (fatigue from cortisol going too low? or other effect of estrogen if not)
and edit: maybe boron? but cortisol went up in this one so maybe not, boron crashes estradiol in the first week before it raises back up & elevates with test

 

[tommyg130]

How did you get your estradiol back up after driving it down?

it might be harmful to have a lot around (haven't dived into that yet but seen some stuff on link to cancer etc), but tanking it probably isnt good idea either. estrogen is linked to cortisol

Effects of estrogen versus estrogen and progesterone on cortisol and interleukin-6 the ERT group showed a significant increase in cortisol levels when comparing baseline and post treatment

i get the sense people who are typically low on cortisol feel like absolute dog diarrhea when tanking estrogen. 2 ways to test this are high dose Vitamin E
and boron , boron crashes estradiol in the first week before it raises back up. if you are low estrogen / cortisol you will probably feel horrible on it


How did you raise your estrogen level back up?

whenever my estrogen goes up my cortisol goes down. There is a middle ground id say. Also everyone is genetically different and requires more or less estrogen. I’m on TRT .

 

[tommyg130]

All of the benefits you're describing (feeling great in a variety of ways) happened to me when I roughly doubled my T from ~350 to over 600 back in 2016-2017. My estrogen stayed where it was, so the ratio increased.

You're claiming that higher estrogen (all other things equal) lowers risk of heart disease, makes people feel better, improves metabolism and energy production, etc. Would love to see references for the body of research on that.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKPyV6MDiAk



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hG2tWvDpVQ


Take it for what you want. Just my two cents. Estrogen protects from the risks associated w elevated androgens. I’m obviously coming from a trt lens, but it still applies. All I’m trying to say is natural estrogen that follows Testosterone is fine. And yes . I feel better with a testosterone of 900 with an e2 of 60 as opposed to the same 900 test and e2 of 30. Night and day .

 

[Motorneuron]

I believe that the levels in the serum are simply useless values, we would need intracerebral and cerebrospinal values as well as of course the symptoms. There can be fluctuating values depending on the tissue / organ ... let's not focus only on muscle and adipose tissue ...

I noticed too much superficiality in this forum

 

[LeeLemonoil]

whenever my estrogen goes up my cortisol goes down.

Which isn’t necessarily a good thing, depending on tissue and situation.

There is a middle ground id say.

it’s called homeostasis. In every tissue at any given time.

 

[ecstatichamster]

It’s not a matter of lowering estrogen to help health. It’s a matter of addressing the CAUSES of higher estrogen. Remove those causes of high estrogen, and through better health everything improves. You can lower estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor but usually that makes things worse…and Dr. Peat seldom recommends those.

I have lowered estrogen through better digestive health and that has made a HUGE improvement for me in sexual and overall health. It wasn’t directly about lowering estrogen, it was about improving digestive health, soaking up some of the bile, etc., that improves overall health and therefore lowers the estrogen production.

 

[tankasnowgod]

it is now widely known that estrogen is neuroprotective and cardio protective.

Um, you got any sources for this claim? As far as I know, using estrogen to protect against heart disease is a total bust. If anything is generally protective of pre-menopausal women getting cardio vascular disease, it is likely low iron levels, and/or high progesterone levels.

 

[tankasnowgod]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKPyV6MDiAk



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hG2tWvDpVQ


Take it for what you want. Just my two cents. Estrogen protects from the risks associated w elevated androgens. I’m obviously coming from a trt lens, but it still applies. All I’m trying to say is natural estrogen that follows Testosterone is fine. And yes . I feel better with a testosterone of 900 with an e2 of 60 as opposed to the same 900 test and e2 of 30. Night and day .

Do you just watch Youtube videos, or do you actually read the studies they cite? I've found the studies Rouzier cites as dubious, at best.

 

[tommyg130]

Do you just watch Youtube videos, or do you actually read the studies they cite? I've found the studies Rouzier cites as dubious, at best.

I’ll look at the studies too. Won’t act like im the best at interpreting them. Studies on both ends can be bogus. All ik from my experience is upper range estrogen feels great , so long as you have other metabolic functions in check. And your high estrogen isn’t stress related

 

[Blaze]

"Blindly telling people to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong", you say? Hard to say Ray is "blindly" doing anything when you see his references.

It is well known in conventional medicine and far from controversial that estrogen can have many deleterious effects. Even wikipedia's article on Estrogen states the following:

An estrogen-dependent condition, disease, disorder, or syndrome, is a medical condition that is, in part or full, dependent on, or is sensitive to, the presence of estrogenic activity in the body.

Known estrogen-dependent conditions include mastodynia (breast pain/tenderness),[1][2] breast fibroids,[3] mammoplasia (breast enlargement), macromastia (breast hypertrophy),[4][5] gynecomastia,[6] breast cancer,[7] precocious puberty in girls,[8] melasma,[9] menorrhagia,[10][11] endometriosis,[12] endometrial hyperplasia,[13] adenomyosis,[13] uterine fibroids,[7] uterine cancers (e.g., endometrial cancer),[7] ovarian cancer,[14] and hyperestrogenism in males such as in certain conditions like cirrhosis and Klinefelter's syndrome.[15]

On Ray's website any of the many articles he publishes there on estrogen or any other topic ends with a giant list of in depth references heavy on the science he uses to show where he found a basis for his conclusions. To mount any challenge to these statements by Ray you would need to post references countering each idea to properly refute him.

It is no small task to pit your intellect and your personal interpretation of the science against a man that has the advantage of so many more years than you do, passionately investigating these issues. You will need a lot of references to convince anyone you see the issue more clearly than Ray. A daunting task indeed.

I'm not opposed to you being correct and then learning from you, but we will need to understand at a much deeper level how you draw the conclusions you stated above.

 

[xeliex]

I believe that the levels in the serum are simply useless values, we would need intracerebral and cerebrospinal values as well as of course the symptoms. There can be fluctuating values depending on the tissue / organ ... let's not focus only on muscle and adipose tissue ...

I noticed too much superficiality in this forum

THIS TBH

 

[tommyg130]

Blindly telling people to lower estrogen and blaming it for so many conditions and diseases is wrong, you say?

It is well known in medicine and far from controversial that estrogen can have many deleterious effects. Even wikipedia's article on Estrogen states the following:

An estrogen-dependent condition, disease, disorder, or syndrome, is a medical condition that is, in part or full, dependent on, or is sensitive to, the presence of estrogenic activity in the body.

Known estrogen-dependent conditions include mastodynia (breast pain/tenderness),[1][2] breast fibroids,[3] mammoplasia (breast enlargement), macromastia (breast hypertrophy),[4][5] gynecomastia,[6] breast cancer,[7] precocious puberty in girls,[8] melasma,[9] menorrhagia,[10][11] endometriosis,[12] endometrial hyperplasia,[13] adenomyosis,[13] uterine fibroids,[7] uterine cancers (e.g., endometrial cancer),[7] ovarian cancer,[14] and hyperestrogenism in males such as in certain conditions like cirrhosis and Klinefelter's syndrome.[15]

On Ray's website any article he publishes on estrogen or any topic ends with a giant list of in depth references to show where he found a basis for his conclusions. To mount any challenge to these statements by Ray you would need to post references countering each idea to properly refute him.

It is no small task to pit your intellect and your personal interpretation of the science against a man that has the advantage of so many years than you passionately investigating these issues. You will need a lot of references to convince anyone you see the issue more clearly than Ray.

I'm not opposed to you being correct and learning from you, but will need to understand at a very deep level how you draw the conclusions you stated above

I guess I’m trying to emphasize that estrogen in the absence of other metabolic and energy issues isn’t an issue. Estrogen isn’t CAUSING the problems. It’s just there at the scene of the crime in an unhealthy person. So long as progesterone isn’t in the gutter in a female, and estrogen is following in suit w testosterone estrogen won’t pose an issue. E2 is ASSOCIATED with high disease and all etc. yes. But funny enough if you add bioodentical e2 conditions improve. Does that make sense? E2 is there at the scene of the crime. Stress thyroid insulin resistance pufas gut issues. So yea e2 may be high in unhealthy individual. But it isn’t the issue. It gets blamed though. One may then say oh but when my estrogen lowered things improved. Yes. Bc they fixed liver health, stress, gut.

 

[Blaze]

I guess I’m trying to emphasize that estrogen in the absence of other metabolic and energy issues isn’t an issue. Estrogen isn’t CAUSING the problems. It’s just there at the scene of the crime in an unhealthy person. So long as progesterone isn’t in the gutter in a female, and estrogen is following in suit w testosterone estrogen won’t pose an issue. E2 is ASSOCIATED with high disease and all etc. yes. But funny enough if you add bioodentical e2 conditions improve. Does that make sense? E2 is there at the scene of the crime. Stress thyroid insulin resistance pufas gut issues. So yea e2 may be high in unhealthy individual. But it isn’t the issue. It gets blamed though. One may then say oh but when my estrogen lowered things improved. Yes. Bc they fixed liver health, stress, gut.

Understood your point,and appreciate that you shared your conclusions, and I have no issues with somebody disagreeing with Ray, I'm just saying that Ray's well researched ideas are not by any means "blindly" stating rash notions about estrogen. To show your conclusions have merit, you have got to demonstrate the support for your conclusions, nothing personal.

 

[xeliex]

Tommy, I understand what you are saying, but some of estrogen's actions like degranulating mast cells leads to a cascade that begets other undesirable hormones and effects. Yes, as you say, estrogen might be at the crime scene when the crime is being analyzed, but its presence is not benign. Similar to serotonin (that you inquired about in another post), they are necessary but tend to be problematic nowadays due to the industry push and our current lifestyles.

 

[tommyg130]

Understood your point,and appreciate that you shared your conclusions, and I have no issues with somebody disagreeing with Ray, I'm just saying that Ray's well researched ideas are not by any means "blindly" stating rash notions about estrogen. To show your conclusions have merit, you have got to demonstrate the support for your conclusions, nothing personal.

I understand. And I’m sure me and ray are actually more on the same page then it seems. Just imo he implies estrogen is directly causing the issues. Whereas elevated estrogen is really the symptom and not the caus s

 

[tommyg130]

Tommy, I understand what you are saying, but some of estrogen's actions like degranulating mast cells leads to a cascade that begets other undesirable hormones and effects. Yes, as you say, estrogen might be at the crime scene when the crime is being analyzed, but its presence is not benign. Similar to serotonin (that you inquired about in another post), they are necessary but tend to be problematic nowadays due to the industry push and our current lifestyles.

Interesting. Thanks for that. I like the point about it not being benign. I rly thought it somewhat was, but I believe you and will have to check it out more myself