I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[tankasnowgod]

I said I would stay out of this thread so people could figure things out for themselves without appearing like I was trying to tell people what to do. That is the only way this can work in my opinion. I've stated my opinion many times in this thread that people have to figure out a system that works for them. Nobody can prescribe a system for someone else. Please read this article and see how this kid figured out a simple system to heal himself. I don't believe supplements are ever mentioned in the article. Very simple basic things that are not hard to do if you set your mind to it like this very creative young man. Very inspiring.

High school senior loses 115 pounds by walking to school, changing diet

That story is pretty cool, and it does make sense, too. Adding at least 40 minutes low intensity exercise each day (walking), also spending at least 40 more minutes outside, lowering fast food intake (which almost certainly means lower PUFA, and probably things like HFCS, raw iron, and other additives), watch caloric intake, and add in some resistance training. A pretty good plan overall, and especially effective for a teenager.

 

[LiveWire]

@ecstatichamster

How about just eating easily digested carbs just BEFORE a fat/protein meal? Instead of completely separating them, thus potentially creating a stressful situation each time you have your fatty protein meal?

How long does it take to digest a cup of OJ? 20 minutes? Why not do that, raise you blood sugar and liver glycogen, and you can then stuff your face with the fatty protein. By the time the fat hits your intestine, there won’t be any sugar around to Randle-block, instead the sugar will already be at all the right places, assuring no stress reaction from the protein and fat.

 

[ecstatichamster]

@ecstatichamster

How about just eating easily digested carbs just BEFORE a fat/protein meal? Instead of completely separating them, thus potentially creating a stressful situation each time you have your fatty protein meal?

How long does it take to digest a cup of OJ? 20 minutes? Why not do that, raise you blood sugar and liver glycogen, and you can then stuff your face with the fatty protein. By the time the fat hits your intestine, there won’t be any sugar around to Randle-block, instead the sugar will already be at all the right places, assuring no stress reaction from the protein and fat.

Indeed. OJ or even fruit may be easy to digest before a fat meal. I think though that the sugar takes time for the body to incorporate...and that interferes with the fatty meal’s absorption in the body.

Maybe not though.

 

[Yi at LDT]

@ecstatichamster

How about just eating easily digested carbs just BEFORE a fat/protein meal? Instead of completely separating them, thus potentially creating a stressful situation each time you have your fatty protein meal?

How long does it take to digest a cup of OJ? 20 minutes? Why not do that, raise you blood sugar and liver glycogen, and you can then stuff your face with the fatty protein. By the time the fat hits your intestine, there won’t be any sugar around to Randle-block, instead the sugar will already be at all the right places, assuring no stress reaction from the protein and fat.

I started adding in between 10-20 grams of sugar (liquid) first thing in the morning before my high fat meal and it worked incredibly well.

I can tolerate rice like a champ after midday, but before hand, it will throw my entire day way way off. I really think we should pay attention to our circadian rhythm and natural metabolic change throughout the day. it makes very little sense to eat a high fat meal before sleep raising stress hormones, digging deep into glycogen and relying on FFA throughout the night when our oxidative metabolism is roaring.

CIRCADIAN EATING

Why do you think hardly anyone intermittent fasts at night? why do people schedule their 24hr+ fasts to be broken at NIGHT? Nightime is for carbs, thyroid, oxidative metabolism. Morning is for fat and protein IMO






If Vitamin A really is as toxic as many of us believe it to be, then eating a high fat meal would dump a lot of VA into the small intestine, blood etc due to increased bile flow. On the VA thread, many people are experiencing worsening symptoms right after a high fat meal.

 

[yerrag]

Coming late into the thread. I think it's possible why starch doesn't go well with fat in terms of optimum metabolism is that fatty acids block tissue absorption of glucose, which is what starch becomes after it's digested and assimilated into the bloodstream. Starch is devoid of fructose, which promotes tissue absorption of glucose. Furthermore, starch is very low in potassium, and potassium also promotes tissue absorption of glucose.

With fatty acids blocking glucose absorption, and without the help of potassium or fructose, glucose isn't absorbed and stays and accumulates in the blood. Blood sugar rises and this leads to an insulin reaction, which leads to the conversion of glucose to fats in the liver. This leads to weight gain.



This also happens to me when I don't have meat with my carbs. Meat contains plenty of potassium, and potassium will help tissue absorption of glucose. Blood sugar won't spike, and there won't be an insulin reaction, and this keeps blood sugar steady instead of being down by insulin.

I'm going to add to my own post as I may not be doing a good job of explaining my thoughts on the issue of this thread. I'm very much a fan of Ray Peat's idea of searching for coherence. This is very much about how he disdains the idea of inventing new devices to explain their theory when it falls short in filling large gaps, such as the idea of pumps to transport substances through cells because the idea of membranes can't fully explain everything that goes on in and out of cells.

And may I say that there's little coherence here in this thread? It's a lot of muddling through going on. On one side, there's danielebb making a case that carbs and fats don't mix in a meal (forgive the simplication) and then CLASH saying that essentially that his experience says otherwise. And then we get this thing about everything being dependent on the individual's n=1, and that you'll have to find your own "sweet spot" as there really are no hard and fast rules. So, in effect, the impression I get is that this is an "art," and not much science is involved. For through 14 pages of this, very little of "why" is talked about.

If carbs and fats don't mix in a meal, why? But how come some people do well with it?

Why do some people get hungry quickly if they just eat only fats in a meal?

Why do some people get hungry quickly if they just eat only starch in a meal?

Why do some people do well eating only fruits in a meal?

Why is it that Morse said not to combine carbs with protein in a meal?

When is starch plus meat good for a person? When is it not?

Why do some people do better with fruits and meat than starch and meat in a meal?

Why do some people have no problem with eating starch, fat, and protein together in a meal?

What is the role of potassium w/r to sugar uptake by tissues?

What is the role of sugar in the digestion of protein?

Do fatty acids interfere with sugar uptake by tissues?

What happens when sugar is not easily absorbed by tissues?

What causes blood sugar to be converted to fats?

I hope thinking through the answers to these questions will help you get a clearer picture of what you need to do with respect to making your meals a more enjoyable experience.

 

[LiveWire]

@Yi at LDT

As far as I know circadian rhythm very much relies on night time fasting.

So who says that the circadian eating is the way to go? Based on what? Because it all sounds like it stands on a similar type of BS nonsense as paleo: what would an >>ancient man, animal, jesus<< do?

What is the logic for fats in the morning and carbs at night? Aren’t carbs most easily metabolized and thus not ideal to sustain anything longer term such as night sleep.

 

[Yi at LDT]

Well, we get some pretty big trends with circadian rhythm and as far as I'm aware the vast majority of people fast and sleep at night... I'm talking about the hormone cycles we go through on a 24hr basis. I personally don't believe it's all light and meal timing driven, but that's just me.

If you read my posts, it's to do with hormone levels throughout the day. Cortisol and thyroid mainly.

Carbs get converted into glycogen and can sustain you. Peat mentions 15hours without foods as being non stressful for a 'healthy' person. Glycogen plays a big role in that.

I think we can agree that digestion slows at night and high protein and fat meals require conciderable more energy to digest.

Our bodies as a whole are burning both carbs and fats constantly. If they do not digest well together, why not eat either one when our hormonal profile is most suited to it? i.e. high cortisol tends toward lipolysis and faty metabolism. High thyroid in the afternoon and evenings faours oxidative metabolism. Make sense?

I think theres some reason in that, not some jesus paleo BS. You are more then welcome to disagree

 

[Yi at LDT]

I don't think I'll be waking at 1am to eat a steak regularly. It's what applies to the vast majority of people.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Dr. Peat says that you should have some fat with carbs, and carbs with protein. He is not advocating what we are talking about on this thread. But that doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea either.

I prefer eating mostly carbs and protein anyway. I am favorable to low fat now. And eating the fat in one meal makes sense to me at this point. It’s all an experiment. I am not losing body fat this way, though.

My body doesn’t like giving up fat.

But it’s a fun experiment.

 

[Yi at LDT]

Absolutely agree. There are lots of people who seem to enjoy really low fat. Longterm I really don't think it's a good idea. Even a high fat meal every few days could be useful.

 

[milkboi]

Longterm I really don't think it's a good idea.

Y?

Not that I don't agree, a high fat meal might be another way (besides lots of sugar) to signal to the body there's an abundance of (different) foods. Though for now I'm going to stick to my fun PUFA depletion diet.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think very low fat can be bad for your gall bladder and bile flow if nothing else. Having a fat meal sometimes is probably important to keep the machinery in shape.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I was reading one guys experience the other day where his testicles had shrunk from a very low fat doet. Came back with some fat.

 

[danielbb]

And may I say that there's little coherence here in this thread? It's a lot of muddling through going on. On one side, there's danielebb making a case that carbs and fats don't mix in a meal (forgive the simplication

yerrag - I have much respect for your opinion but if you are going to bring up what I've written, then please refer to it correctly in the context I wrote it. I never, ever, ever, never said don't mix fat and carbs. I provided scientific theory - that has never been disproven, and scientific data that backed up every point I made, about mixing too much fat with too many carbs within a given time frame of each other (it causes metabolic disease in my opinion which is the root of disease in my opinion). I spent countless posts in this thread explaining carb and fat mixing thresholds that would obviously be different for each person and can ONLY be determined by the person themselves. Penicillin is a miracle drug that will cure common infections for most people. There is no Doctor on the planet who can say with certainty how EACH person may react to that drug. No Doctor on the planet who can predict with certainty how EACH person may react to any drug. No Phd biologist (e.g., Ray Peat) on the planet who can predict how EACH person may react to a given substance like apples, tomatoes, pineapples, starch, potatoes, spinach, coconut oil, olive oil, etc. etc. etc.

What I have written, and I am standing boldly behind it, applies to ALL bodies. I cannot determine individual doses (e.g., mixing thresholds) for ANY person. The mixing problem is a huge problem in our country. Supposedly we have one of the wealthiest countries and yet we have one of the highest cancer and heart disease rates in the World among a host of other diseases like dementia and depression. Mexico is considered to be poorer than the US economically yet their disease rates with respect to cancer (I have not checked heart disease rates) is one of the lowest rates/capita in the world for that category. Which country is in fact richer? Houston there is a problem.

Ray Pete has discovered some basic problems such as the toxicity of pufa and added iron which I am very grateful to Ray for. One of the most famous medical minds (Nobel Laureate Dr. Otto Warburg) of all time suggested in 1924 that cancer is a metabolic disease and is related to a mitochondrial disfunction. I agree with him. I am suggesting how to fix metabolism and I am also predicting this will cure disease as Dr. Warburg suggested (assuming people turn themselves around before their disease becomes terminal). I've been tip-toing around my feelings in this thread but I am standing by everything I have written. If you disagree, that is fine. Contrast your science and scientific evidence against what I have written. Ray says this or Ray says that is not science in my humble opinion. Drinking lots of milk causes metabolic issues and Ray is wrong about that one substance but there are others. As but one example related to this issue, when I want milk, I make it from dry milk powder. Tastes great, low cost, long shelf life, good protein source, and no fat to avoid the mixing issue. Love fat (not pufa) but when I consume it I mix it with low carb sources. Please refute what I have written with contradicting science (related to the context of restoring metabolism to normal) and I'll gladly discuss it with you so we can collaborate try and hopefully arrive at a better place.

 

[yerrag]

then please refer to it correctly in the context I wrote it. I never, ever, ever, never said don't mix fat and carbs.

And this is what I said, and you take umbrage at my admitted oversimplication of your point: "On one side, there's danielebb making a case that carbs and fats don't mix in a meal (forgive the simplication)."

Should I rephrase, or do you understand the context?

 

[yerrag]

Look, this isn't about you danielebb making erroneous statements. To be clear, I'm not arguing with you on whatever you have said. They're all valid observations and I'm glad you've found something very helpful to your health, and that you're sharing it with us.

But what points can we conclude in this thread that can really elucidate with regards to how we eat as far as mixing the macronutrients are concerned? There is so much fluidity and subjectivity that it leaves little room for newbies to navigate through this maze, much less veteran forum members.

If these observations cannot be explained in terms of solid reasoning backed by strong technical and scientific truths that stand scrutiny, it easily gets rolled into relative truths where yours and mine don't have to be the same. Yes, there's the n=1 but even so there's still something for everybody to learn for each of our n=1. There is still a common thread that can be extracted from it than everybody can agree on once we can unmask the confounders in each situation, as we understand our own individual context and its relevance to our experience.

There has to be coherence instead of a shared confusion and quiet desperation.

 

[AlphaCog]

The Carb Cycling Codex | T Nation

 

[danielbb]

Hello. I've been able to have more balanced and back-and forth discussions with some of our members offline (reasonable discussions without dogma) and they have raised some very good points with me. The stuff I mentioned earlier about carb and fat mixing thresholds is valid, according to my anecdotal experience, according to science, and to scientific data backing it up. The carb/fat mixing thresholds allows one to calculate/determine with engineering precision how much fat and carbs can be tolerated at a given time (given one's genetic code that makes each individual unique and current circumstances). That may be a level of complexity that does need to be considered all that much unless we are talking about specific items like pastries, ice cream, candy, chocolate, (baked potatoes, sour cream, and butter) and so forth. I absolutely love those things and make no apologies for loving them. I believe there are reasonable ways to deal with those wonderful things but here are some thoughts that have come to me from further collaboration with people offline.

Meat:
Lean meat sources (low fat content sources) like white chicken breast, lean pork, lean burgers, lean turkey, and so forth probably can be mixed with any carb source without metabolic penalty. There may be some outlier people out there that even the small amount of fat in lean meat mixed with a high carb source may cause an issue. If you are one of those, eat low carb vegetables or fruit, if possible, with your lean meat.

Fatty meat sources (higher fat content sources) - most red meat, bacon, fatty pork chops, chicken wings, dark chicken or turkey meat, fatty burgers, and so forth, it probably is a good idea to mix these with low carb vegetables or fruit. There probably are some who can mix these with high carb sources and get away with it without suffering metabolic penalty. Note: If you bake or boil your meat (e.g., in spaghetti sauce) you can convert a high fat meat source into a lean meat source since most of the fat is boiled or baked off.

Protein in general: 80-100g per day makes no sense to me. That was the last bit of Ray Peat (he's not the only one) kool-aide I was drinking. I've looked at every possible nutrient that a human can consume and protein comes in lower doses. There is almost no protein in fruit and vegetables other than legumes. Sources such as potatoes and whole grains contain more protein. Meat sources contain the most. In order to get 80-100 grams, I'd have to start eating 4 to 5 12 oz steaks (or some other meat source) and/or add lots of legumes to come close to that amount each day. This is ridiculous. This supplement madness must stop. I will not dispute that a given person who may be currently imbalanced may react favorably to a given supplement at a given time. A balanced diet however of fruit, vegetables, whole grains including non-enriched flour, meat (when the whim occurs to you), legumes, solves all health issues. If you like milk, which I do, I've found that powdered dry milk tastes great, is low cost, good protein source, and avoids mixing issues. Some however, regular milk may be perfectly fine and healthy. I like 0% fat yogurt for the same reasons.

Legumes: More Ray Peat kool-aide. Soy may be an issue due to the pesticide issue and the potential for misbalancing (over-dosing) the body with a high phytoestrogen source. Ray may be right about the phosphate issue (e.g., probably if over-dosing) but that may be over-thinking things too much. If you eat legumes reasonably in the normal course of a balanced diet that contains many protein sources, I do not see the issue. I cannot prescribe or decide that issue for someone else however. Legumes are a miracle drug for me just like all the other whole-food sources I love and have mentioned all over this topic.

Whole grains - these are miracle drugs for me as long as I do not over-dose them (e.g., eat them reasonably in the course of a balanced diet with all the other things I like just as much), and eat from non-enriched sources.

Iron: Found in just about every substance we consume. I now suspect that enriched flour is more of an over-dosing issue than whether or not iron is toxic in general. It's found in everything. Avoid over-dosing it and you should be fine. We need iron for crying out loud just not in the quantities we get in most processed food.

PUFA: Ray has basically classified PUFA as toxic and done a pretty good job of convincing me of that. He is unreasonably paranoid about it at the same time. I am not sure there is any substance where you cannot find PUFA. It seems to me, that when dosed in high concentrations like found in vegetable and seed oils, it does become toxic as then we are talking about the over-dose situation. Anything can be over-dosed including water. There is nothing unhealthy about an avocado, for example. Eating them (or any substance) all the time may very well lead to an imbalance in your body which is the effect of any over-dose situation. Nothing is good or evil. Good things (if we classify them that way, can be over-dosed). Evil things, (if we classify some things that way) may very well be denying our bodies the healing substances we need. Even though I no longer consume alcohol, I am convinced that used reasonably (e.g., a wedding, a holiday, at home occasionally and not driving) that it is not toxic for our system and liver. Alcohol is toxic however in the "doses" many of us have used it in the past.

Some things I love and have found some reasonable work-arounds (for now but always trying to make the things I love and the way I remember them as a kid):
Ice Cream:
I mentioned Yonana frozen fruit processor. Frozen Honey Dew and Cantaloupe is delicious and simulates ice cream beautifully.

Here's a new one for ice cream I have recently discovered - it is simply to die for. 0% fat Greek Yogurt mixed with lots of honey. The tartness of the yogurt is offset beautifully by the somewhat over-sweetness of honey. I cannot describe how delicious this combination is. Completely takes care of my urge for regular-fat/sugar ice cream. All that said, I have no doubt I will create an ice cream one of these days that you will not be able to tell the difference between Dairy Queen (love Dairy Queen) and an ice cream that is either (fat-cream mixed with a low-carb source for sweetener), or (a low fat source for the cream mixed with a high carb source for sweetener). I've pretty much convinced myself that both styles are possible while avoiding metabolic issues at the same time and the best part - enjoying our lives like we were meant to.

Following someone else's prescription on life. Makes no sense. I cannot prescribe universally for anyone and neither can Ray Peat nor any other Doctor. Only the individual themselves can determine how they may react to a given food substance, supplement, pharmaceutical, and so forth. Any substance can be over-dosed including foods deemed healthy by most. I can collaborate to help people find their own unique system that offers maximum enjoyment in life while restoring complete health in reasonable time (a year or two). There are no magic pills out there but at the same time, a given pill or supplement may very well make sense at a given point in time for a given individual and given that individual's current acute state or health urgency. Perfect health is a myth but restoring balance to one's life will make you feel like you are in perfect health. Health is a balance between life and death. Something must die (e.g., animal or plant) in order for us to sustain ourselves. When we try to outsmart God, we cause problems for ourselves by misbalancing something else in our body or life. Eat those things you like, that you prepare yourself (or select healthy whole-food sources at restaurants), and over the reasonable course of time, and with reasonable exercise applied over time, I have no doubt where your particular health journey will lead - a complete restoration and healing. We will all die someday as you cannot have life on this earth without death. Our hearts are a mechanical pump that will simply wear out someday like all pumps must do. I would like to check-out someday if possible by closing my eyes, my pump stops working as the laws of nature require, and I breath my last breath without pain. That said, I'd like to at least know my great grandkids and have them know me. I believe these are reasonable goals. Eat reasonably, exercise reasonably, enjoy life fully, stop-trying to outsmart simple things, and the possibilities are there for you just like they have now come to me. God bless each and everyone of y. My many thanks and gratitude to all our current and past service members for allowing me to relax comfortably today.

 

[olive]

I can’t believe this is still being debated.

Eat carbs (+proteins) in the morning when insulin sensitivity and cortisol is highest. Wait 4 hours for digestion. Eat fats (+proteins). Go to sleep. Repeat.

Don’t do this forever as micronutrient uptake will be hindered but it’s an effective weight loss strategy utilised by bodybuilders for decades.

 

[danielbb]

I can’t believe this is still being debated.

Eat carbs (+proteins) in the morning when insulin sensitivity and cortisol is highest. Wait 4 hours for digestion. Eat fats (+proteins). Go to sleep. Repeat.

Don’t do this forever as micronutrient uptake will be hindered but it’s an effective weight loss strategy utilised by bodybuilders for decades.

The debate is in YOUR head. If you do not like what is being discussed here, IGNORE this thread and I assure you it will bring peace to you. I am just as ripped as the picture you post as your contact image and I am 58 years old. I have learned the hard way not to be as arrogant to think that I could possibly know a universal prescription for ALL bodies. What may work for you may not work for somebody else. There is absolutely no debate going on here. I have no idea what you like to eat. No idea how a particular substance may react in your body. We all have a slightly different genetic code that could balance things toward one thing or another. Penicillin is a miracle drug for most people to combat an infection but NO DOCTOR on the planet can tell you with CERTAINTY how penicillin may react in ALL bodies as some are HIGHLY allergic to that PARTICULAR substance. I can tell you are a highly intelligent individual olive and beautifully ripped. If you think you can prescribe to others what they need to do and END the DEBATE, then you need to learn just like I needed to do in my youth, that my EGO, ARROGANCE, and PRIDE were serious problems that I needed to learn the hard-way (and still learning) to overcome.