When Does The Excessive Appetite Diminish?

[SOMO]

I agree that it's not normal. But it's because my liver glucose storage capacity is FUBAR. How does one fix it without eating 1200g of carbs?

How is eating starch going to fix that? Again, that's against almost all of the RP philosophy because starch is anti-metabolic?

Starch does not give me energy like sugar does. Nor does it fix my brain fog. Basically damned if I do damned if I don't...

I think you're eating too much calories. Try consuming more solid food and less liquids. Some thoughts on your issues:

1. Liver will have issues disposing of 1200g of Carbohydrate daily. I think you need to up your protein and reduce carb.

2. Starch is not anti-metabolic. And I don't think RP ever says it is, he simply says that it can possibly increase Endotoxemia in those with poor digestion, which is pretty serious, but if your digestion is in good health, he says it's a fine source of glucose.

3. Starch is literally chains of glucose. Starch is glucose bound to other glucose, kind of like how Sucrose is glucose bound to fructose. But Sucrose takes some energy to break down. Starch is much more easily broken down - starch (cooked) FLOODS the bloodstream with glucose (this can spike insulin and increase fat storage) but in a healthy person this effect is offset and negated by rapid utilization of glucose by oxidation.
Lots of glucose = lots of energy.
Starch is broken down by the enzymes
-Alpha-Amylase
-Alpha-Glucosidase

Both of these enzymes are inhibited by common plant foods including vinegar, coffee, tea, curcumin/turmeric, and many other herbs. In fact, most herbs I've looked into affect starch digestion (that is, they REDUCE starch digestion.)

4. Starch that is not digested in the Small Intestine moves into the large intestine and feeds gut bacteria and can increase in LPS/Endotoxin. A HEALTHY person will be able to utilize most of the glucose + nutrients from the cooked starch and leave little for the gut bacteria.

5. Starch in combination with cooked meat is likely what allowed homo sapiens to rise above the other apes.
Specifically the tubers known as Tigernuts were probably one of the first foods that had the caloric density, besides meat, to support brain development. "Nutcracker Man", a homo ancestor, was very successful.
Two million years ago, human relative 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
Cyperus esculentus - Wikipedia

6. Resistant Starch produces SATURATED FATTY ACIDS (Butyrate, Acetate and Propionate) , so eating lots of starchy food can DISPLACE PUFA with healthy ENDOGENOUSLY-CREATED SFAs. The SFAs Butyrate/Acetate/Propionate are all a byproduct of the ingestion of starch by gut microbes.

7. If #5 is correct, it also likely means that RS might be UNIQUELY FATTENING because of its circumvent normal digestion and synthesize endogenous fat.



I think you should try introducing a lot of starch in the form of black beans or potatoes (the most nutrient-dense starches).
I eat the following starches:
-Black beans
-Fava beans (broad beans)
-Potatoes (regular white potatoes. NOT sweet potatoes, which have almost NO resistant starch. Sweet potatoes might qualify as a fruit actually. In either case, sweet potatoes won't feed gut bacteria, if you're concerned about endotoxins.)
-Peas
-Corn/masa
-Wild rice


I feel great consuming these foods. It also keeps me full and produces extremely large bowel movements and helps keep system regular. Large bowl movements train the pelvic floor muscle too, and many in modern society have weak pelvic floor muscles from sitting all day.
Just make sure you boil your beans (100C/212F) for at least 10 minutes to destroy the PHA.

 

[Jennifer]

Welcome to the forum, @foodandtheworld!

Another experience to add to the discussion...

After mysteriously falling ill and struggling to recover, I refed for a year and a half via the advice of Matt Stone, Youreatopia, Billy Craig and what I had researched on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. I ate roughly 6,000 – 10,000 cals daily (10,000 during times of extreme hunger) of mostly whole foods which, looking back, is really an insane amount for a girl just a hair over 5ft and less than 100lbs.

I'm a recovering perfectionist who would have to be dying before calling uncle (no exaggeration) so instead of cutting my losses, I got to a point where I was essentially force-feeding myself in the hopes of recovering like claimed and landed myself in the ER with a severe case of gastritis and profuse vomiting. We all have our less than bright moments. I now have to be proactive about not swinging my pendulum too far one way.

I'm one of those who thrives the majority of the time on a high carb/low-fat diet, fruitarianism to be exact (I know, not exactly "Peaty"), but it took a good year of strengthening my adrenals before most of the symptoms you described, vanished. I was dealing with pretty severe hypoglycemic episodes where my sugars would drop as low as 50 and I was needing to pee multiple times during the night.

Until I'm able to move out of this frozen "ahem" I live in to the warmer Tybee Island, GA, I require more fat during the winter in order to quell the insatiable appetite and not wake during the night with hunger pangs. I eat plenty of coconut, some olives and even avocados in all their hepatotoxic glory. lol I mean, they're known as the butter fruit – that's just asking to be devoured!

Anyhow, I hope you find that perfect balance for where your body is at currently, @Cirion. I wish you lots of luck!

 

[Richiebogie]

I started off with RP with 80/10/10 carb/protein/fat and that did not work out for me appetite wise (upwards of 1200g carbs a day and often still hungry)

31 y/o male 6'0" up to around 205 lbs now, already almost the heaviest I have been in my life.

I guess I just want reassurance that continuing to over-feed myself will actually work.

Refeeding may be useful if you weigh 80 lbs but why overfeed yourself if you are already overweight?

If you hope to live on 3000 Calories long term when your metabolism is perfect then start eating 3000 Calories today! If anything that will be slightly overeating while you are overweight.

Your hunger may not be a sign you need more calories. It may be a sign of missing nutrients or your appetite may need to be reset since fruit sugar is more easily digested than the fat to which you are accustomed.

Eg. 3000 Calories with 80 10 10 would be 600g carbohydrates, 75g protein and 33g fat.

You can get this from highly nutritious foods like fruit, potatoes, tuna, chicken liver, cheese and leafy greens, say.

 

[DaveFoster]

I think @DaveFoster was the 10,000 calorie person you were talking about.

Yes, I did eat over 12,000 calories daily for a while. If you get the basic nutrients many of the calories become "expendable;" for example, athletes eat lots of "junk food," such as pizza, soda, cake, ice cream and so on when they train in addition to regular meals.

Starch still has a negative effect on digestion, but it's difficult to prepare a palatable diet (at least an affordable one) without starch. Drinking 2% or whole milk helps to get extra calories, and Dr. Peat would advise more saturated fat rather than starch.

When you're young, you can use starches for energy more easily than when you're older, given appropriate thyroid function due to reduced intestinal permeability and stronger tight junctions in the intestinal wall.

Fat may make some feel "sluggish," whereas starch makes others feel as if poisoned. It's all based on your individual reaction to a particular food.

With regard to the digestion of starch, fat becomes necessary to prevent its anti-thyroid effects, so a "low-fat" diet requires very strong thyroid function and a high intake of fruit, unless you use coconut or MCT oil as your primary fat source with, for example potatoes, which would render these fatty acids "moot" compared to those found in butter or olive oil.

 

[raypeatclips]

Starch still has a negative effect on digestion

Too simplistic a statement. Surely this forum isnt still banging this drum. Many people on here report benefits reintroducing starch, and many feel unwell going no starch, but people's fascist approach to starch on here might make them persevere eating no starch and getting sicker and sicker, this is what happened to me.

The persorption issues are to do with dry starch, not well boiled rice or potatoes, especially when eaten with a bit of fat. Billions of people rely on these daily to fuel themselves.

In my experience, my digestion and health was at the absolute worst when I was no starch.

Of course if someone is negatively reacting to starch, don't eat that starch, but a large proportion of this forum are absolutely blinkered against anything Ray hasn't specifically said "yes this is good."

It's all based on your individual reaction to a particular food.

Why demonise starch then?

 

[Cirion]

I seem to be doing better by doing higher protein high carb low fat than I was on lower protein high carb low fat. I have actually lost some of my bloat and maybe some bodyfat now.

Now I think the excessive hunger occurs if you try to mix fat and carbs too much. The FFA's interfere with the carbohydrate metabolism (especially for an unhealthy person). I actually find myself not craving fats as much the last couple of days either. If I get "hungry", it just means I need more protein. If I feel my energy levels waning, then it means I need to start reaching for carbs. At least, that's how it is for me. Since going RP I've come to realize that hungry / low energy are not necessarily the same thing. In fact usually when I'm hungry (need protein), my energy levels tend to get higher due to stress hormones.

As for starch, true, maybe some people can metabolize them better than others, but definitely not me. In fact, I was on a high starch low fat diet before I came to RP - and it trashed my health. So for me, I'm not eating starch again any time soon.

 

[YourUniverse]

I seem to be doing better by doing higher protein high carb low fat than I was on lower protein high carb low fat. I have actually lost some of my bloat and maybe some bodyfat now.

Now I think the excessive hunger occurs if you try to mix fat and carbs too much. The FFA's interfere with the carbohydrate metabolism (especially for an unhealthy person). I actually find myself not craving fats as much the last couple of days either. If I get "hungry", it just means I need more protein. If I feel my energy levels waning, then it means I need to start reaching for carbs. At least, that's how it is for me. Since going RP I've come to realize that hungry / low energy are not necessarily the same thing. In fact usually when I'm hungry (need protein), my energy levels tend to get higher due to stress hormones.

As for starch, true, maybe some people can metabolize them better than others, but definitely not me. In fact, I was on a high starch low fat diet before I came to RP - and it trashed my health. So for me, I'm not eating starch again any time soon.

I like how you differentiate the feelings of hunger and of low energy, and what your body is telling you it needs in both cases - I hadn't thought about it in those terms, very cool.

 

[Cirion]

I like how you differentiate the feelings of hunger and of low energy, and what your body is telling you it needs in both cases - I hadn't thought about it in those terms, very cool.

I should also add, that there is also a differentiation between "bad" fatigue and "good" fatigue, and I haven't yet always learned to tell the difference between the two. "Bad" fatigue is just that, you're too low on energy and need carbs. "Good" fatigue results when your stress hormones have been too high for too long, and you eat and these hormones drop, bringing on a feeling of fatigue. In this case, I find it's sometimes better to just take a quick nap, than it is to eat more carbs. I think the best way to avoid this situation is to avoid stress hormone spikes in the first place, so you don't get such a severe "compensatory" effect from eating carbs. So far, the way I've been able to tell I have this (true sleepiness), is if it doesn't go away despite more carbs. This tends to happen, most frequently, in the morning for me when I eat my first meal, because of stress hormones having been elevated during the night. Balancing night time stress hormones is still very challenging for me because my glucose storage is still not that good. On weekends, because I can just go back to bed for an hr or two after breakfast, I usually opt in favor of doing so, though on weekdays I just have to hit up caffeine (and make sure I load up on sugar, to avoid too much stress hormone release from caffeine) to get going in the morning. I find that I need at least 300 sometimes 400g carbs to refill my glucose after a nightly fast, which tells me that my body has basically eaten up my entire bodys' store of glucose (not only the liver, but from the muscles as well). I'm wondering if some of my fatigue is simply due to PUFA store releases - so that even though my fat intake is lowered, I still have FFA's because of them being released into the bloodstream despite my not eating them.

So, I have a very long way to go yet to clear out the negative effects of PUFA & to regain my insulin sensitivity, but the fact that I'm not counting calories and the body weight has started to come back down tells me I'm on the right track now. I'm still nowhere near as lean as I'd like to be, but any progress is progress !

 

[DaveFoster]

Too simplistic a statement. Surely this forum isnt still banging this drum. Many people on here report benefits reintroducing starch, and many feel unwell going no starch, but people's fascist approach to starch on here might make them persevere eating no starch and getting sicker and sicker, this is what happened to me.

The persorption issues are to do with dry starch, not well boiled rice or potatoes, especially when eaten with a bit of fat. Billions of people rely on these daily to fuel themselves.

In my experience, my digestion and health was at the absolute worst when I was no starch.

Of course if someone is negatively reacting to starch, don't eat that starch, but a large proportion of this forum are absolutely blinkered against anything Ray hasn't specifically said "yes this is good."



Why demonise starch then?

Starch always gives me bowel issues, although I still eat potatoes for their nutrients.

Dr. Peat has said that good digestion improves one's tolerance to starch, so if you're hypothyroid (for example due to high levels of work stress,) the digestive issues can become debilitating.

 

[Cirion]

here is my diet lately - one meal - usually fish or shrimp/ rice ( white ) or veggie curry and rice - i dont eat land animals , and one fruit smoothie with dried coconut on top sometimes i add noni - one or two coffees in the am, ( decaf and black - brewed in my moccamaster) lots of lemonade and limeade with sugar - and at night i usually have a seltzer/bitters/ sweetened lime juice drink. i eat at around noon and 5pm. so i do best with one cooked, one raw meal (fruit based ) . i usually fast on the weekends or drink most of my meals then. sometimes i will have a sugar coke. i drink a slurp of blackstrap mollasses and/ or some 15+ manuka honey each day. coconut oil pull everyday- sometimes with charcoal added . no more aspirin, progesterone, supplements, carrot salad , coconut oil and all that. i keep it simple now - body temps are perfect finally. i try to do a longer master cleanse at least once a month by the full moon or new moon.( parasites )

@danishispsychic

I'm getting more curious about this the more I've mulled it over in my mind. I think I may benefit from doing a week long juice fast sometime in the semi-near future to really cleanse myself of PUFA. When you do longer fasts, what does it look like? Just googled master cleanse looks like I have to pay money to see the recipes. I note you mentioned lots of maple syrup. I'm guessing that's to purge the body of excess iron. I guess I just want to know how to make sure I'm not nutritionally deficient in anything while doing it, especially in protein. Or do you just not worry about protein - since a juice "fast" would be more protein-sparing than a complete calorie fast for a week I would guess? Since you're not having to break down proteins for glucose. Do you also avoid any strenuous exercise during this time? Also by regularly doing it every weekend, do you find negative effects on muscle retention? Would you recommend me to consider trying that out? I usually do all my weight lifting exercise during the weekdays. So I'm thinking that weekend juice fasts may not negatively impact me much or at all.

Thx!

 

[danishispsychic]

The Master Cleanse does not require a purchase. Read the little yellow book by Stanley Burroughs- you should be able to buy it for 5 bucks on Amazon and/or get it for free online. Lots of you tube videos about it also. Follow his book to the letter and go as long as you can - up to 10 days.

 

[Cirion]

The Master Cleanse does not require a purchase. Read the little yellow book by Stanley Burroughs- you should be able to buy it for 5 bucks on Amazon and/or get it for free online. Lots of you tube videos about it also. Follow his book to the letter and go as long as you can - up to 10 days.

Thx! I will check it out!

 

[GreekDemiGod]

My understanding of the Peat way of eating is to increase the metabolism - so you want to avoid a fatigued state of being at all costs, any time spent fatigued is more damage to the metabolism and make recovery take much longer.

Woow, this hit hard.

@Cirion I find your story fascinating, how you went from lifting 6 days / week and very low bodyfat to your present situation?
Are you still lifting weights?
Ever tried Carnivore Diet + honey / sugar + fruits.? I never had energy when going low carb.