Carb And Fat Separation Didn’t Work - I’m Counting Calories Now

[ecstatichamster]

I'm not saying I'm correct, but just trying to play devil's advocate: older people tend to be more optimistic than young people, and in a lot of cases, I don't think it's true optimism. Rather, it's a dissociated kind of optimism due to a split between mind and body where the mind isn't registering the body's pain signals. I think it's because of elevated serotonin (too much sodium channel firing relative to potassium channels, maybe magnesium channels as well -- do you have any body pains/myalgia/things of that nature?), and I think Buteyko can accelerate this tendency towards unrealistic optimism/serotonin that happens with age (even though it undoubtedly does have it's health benefits because of the elevated CO2). CO2 needs to be balanced with high oxygen (thyroid driven glucose oxidation not only increases CO2 but also spares oxygen, which is why it is so good for you), whereas Buteyko raises CO2 without increasing oxygen in proportion, leading to some dissociation.

That’s interesting.

Older people are more optimistic because they have more perspective maybe?

They have seen how little things really matter.

I’m not old, by the way, lol.

Elevated CO2 increases oxygenation. I have never noticed disassociation.

 

[Inaut]

How much excercise are you doing @ecstatichamster and @Cirion? Just curious as you may need to exert yourself more and eat less. May or may not be ideal but I think to shed fat/weight just through diet would be extremely tough as metabolism may be somewhat dysfunctional.

Sorry if I missed this info in this or any other recently created thread

 

[ecstatichamster]

How much excercise are you doing @ecstatichamster and @Cirion? Just curious as you may need to exert yourself more and eat less. May or may not be ideal but I think to shed fat/weight just through diet would be extremely tough as metabolism may be somewhat dysfunctional.

Sorry if I missed this info in this or any other recently created thread

I do very little exercise. I walk a lot on many days, not so much others. I'm starting to do a few minutes of resistance exercise a day.

 

[YourUniverse]

@ecstatichamster I know it is not peaty at all but perhaps using ketosis to get rid of excess weight and then transitioning into a different diet is better than gaining weight on a peat diet, health wise.

I have thought along these lines as well. The cost of obesity is probably greater than the cost of low carb diets

 

[yerrag]

So how does “addressing” blood sugar look like? What would I do differently?

I eat protein with carbs. I am low-ish fat. I think that is what ultimately helps over the long run to stabilize blood sugar. And I am taking T3 and NDT, and maintaining good body temperatures throughout the day.

I found, by the way, that my waking temperatures had plunged with the separation diet.

Now they are back to 97.2 or so. Still low, but not 96.8

I would start with measuring blood sugar using a blood sugar meter. They're widely available and used by diabetics to keep tabs on their blood sugar. I have one myself, even though I'm not diabetic. Terumo is the brand I use, a Japanese brand.

I've used it lately to test my blood sugar while on a one-day fast. During the fast, my blood sugar was would go from 85 (which would be the value for my blood sugar in between meals) to 75 and maintain this value during the course of the fast. At the end of the fast, it would show that my glycogen is exhausted and would go down to 65. This test tells me that I have ample glycogen supply for 1 day, which is normal. With glycogen supply, a fast is possible because internal stores of sugar supplies one with sugar and with sugar in supply, one doesn't go into a stressed state. Without adequate glycogen supply, it would be hard to maintain a stable blood sugar, and frequent meals would be needed. Needless to say, fasting isn't helpful to one's health without an adequate glycogen to start with.

It's helpful to know if one's glycogen supply is adequate, and I think taking blood sugar measurements while fasting gives you that information.

But that is just one part of it. Even if one has adequate glycogen supply, and is capable of going through a day of fasting, it doesn't mean he can maintain stable blood sugar in a normal day when he eats. When he eats starch, a supply of glucose gets assimilated eventually into blood. If glucose isn't absorbed by tissue, it raises blood sugar. At some point, plenty of insulin is introduced into blood, and it triggers the liver to convert the blood sugar to fats. This can happen quickly too, such that blood glucose plummets. Even if one has glycogen stores, the body isn't introducing sugar from glycogen at a rate fast enough to compensate for the reduction in blood sugar. Low blood sugar will makes one hungry, or sleepy, or grouchy, and worse, weaken the immune system. Becoming hungry is the best outcome I think, as one would get a bite to eat, and it would restore blood sugar. This is why some people need to eat fairly often, grazing is their way to adapt to this condition and remain functional. Some doctors say this is normal for some people, and I would disagree. I've been there, and that's what my doctor would tell me.

The problem really is with the inability of the tissues to absorb glucose in one degree or another. I'm not talking about type 1 diabetics, who don't have insulin. With them, blood sugar would stay high, and they won't feel hungry at all. They're a different story. I'm talking about people whose pancreas still produce enough insulin. Ray is right about fatty acids blocking absorption of glucose. Ray is right also about fructose being absorbed by tissues despite the presence of fatty acids in the blood. This is why for some people, they feel better taking sucrose, which is half fructose half glucose, and feel terrible taking starch, such as white rice and white bread. Processed starch breaks down very quickly and is assimilated into blood very quickly, like a flash flood in the middle of summer in the Arizona desert. This deluge overwhelms the body's ability to absorb the sugar quickly enough (I refer to a person with faulty sugar absorption) and this leads to sugar accumulating in the blood, leading to high blood sugar. This eventually triggers an insulin reaction, and as explained earlier, to sugar converting to fat and to low blood sugar. When I was like that, I would eat more complex carbohydrates such as sweet potato and brown rice. The presence of fiber makes it harder for the starch to get converted to sugar, and this has the effect of metering sugar into blood slowly over a longer period of time, and my body was able to absorb the sugar at the rate it was being assimilated into blood. It also helps that I take a large portion of meat and fats in my meals.

I coped with my poor sugar absorption issues by eating more complex carbohydrates, and by eating brown rice instead of white rice. It was this way with me for about twenty years. Until I changed my oil intake. No more PUFAs, no more fish oil supplements. I listened to Brian Peskin, and he made sense. It was 4 years of no PUFAs, and two years ago I tried white rice again. I no longer felt empty 2-3 hours after eating. Same thing with white sugar. I never did find out if I would have done well coping using cane sugar, but I imagine I would have because of the fructose content.

So, now, when I take my blood sugar right after a meal and hours after a meal, I would initially see my blood sugar spike to 140, which may seem too much but only later I would say "but of course." But an hour after meal, and every hour after, I would see my blood sugar staying constant at around 85. This tells me that my blood sugar is stable, and that my glycogen stores would supply me with ample blood sugar long after the sugar from my meal is exhausted. There is no excessive insulin reaction triggering the conversion of sugar into fat, and I'm not eating more often because my blood sugar is low.

Contrast this with a person who has to eat more often, and each time he eats, converts sugar to fat, and you can see how having faulty sugar absorption affects a person's ability to avoid becoming overweight and worse, obese.

I think there are many myths the medical establishment foists on us about obesity and sugar. Ray's got it right about sugar. It's not bad. It's our body's ability to absorb it in the right manner that's faulty. I went through a period of self discovery in that aspect of it, and it's frustrating that you have so many experts pushing their dogma on paying clients intent of losing weight with so many diet plans. It just comes down to having your sugar absorption working correctly.

Get a blood sugar meter. It will be a very good investment. It will easily repay itself in your health. You'll be able to track your blood sugar easily. You'll understand what your problem is as far as blood sugar and obesity is concerned. You'll appreciate the importance of not having PUFAs and directly experience the benefit of it in the aspect of blood sugar control and maintaining a normal weight. And you'll enjoy the bad things - white sugar and white rice - and fruits (especially with the potassium aiding in sugar absorption). You won't have to graze all day. And you'll sleep better. Not have to doze off during the day. And your immunity is simply bolstered by a stable blood sugar supply - which provides for energy to fight off opportunistic pathogens that's always in your body but kept in check by an immune system well supplied with energy.

Edit: How many here has gone on with say 4 years of non-PUFA sticking with it faithfully? I bet not so many, given that it's hard when you go out to eat. But stay with it. Have faith in it. I had. Believe that PUFA is real bad. Stay away long enough. It took me 4 years. It's a very long time. I didn't think it would pay off, and this was even before I heard of Ray Peat. When I got to learn more of Ray Peat, it's when I decided to go off brown rice and into white. And that's when it hit me. I got it right sticking with no PUFA for so long.

 

[Cirion]

So how does “addressing” blood sugar look like? What would I do differently?

I eat protein with carbs. I am low-ish fat. I think that is what ultimately helps over the long run to stabilize blood sugar. And I am taking T3 and NDT, and maintaining good body temperatures throughout the day.

I found, by the way, that my waking temperatures had plunged with the separation diet.

Now they are back to 97.2 or so. Still low, but not 96.8

I missed this part before. This is very telling. 96.8 is abysmally low, and 97.2 is not great (but better, as you correctly noted). Eating a mere 2000-2500 calories a day is not going to get you to 98.6F man. Let alone 98. It might help you lose fat but in the long run you're hurting yourself with this approach.

I argue that waking temperature and pulse matters equally if not more than pulse and temps during the day from my experiences. So if waking temps are awful, it doesn't matter if you can get temps at 98.6F in the daytime.

 

[Cirion]

How much excercise are you doing @ecstatichamster and @Cirion? Just curious as you may need to exert yourself more and eat less. May or may not be ideal but I think to shed fat/weight just through diet would be extremely tough as metabolism may be somewhat dysfunctional.

Sorry if I missed this info in this or any other recently created thread

Bingo! This precisely 100%. Metabolism absolutely is the governor for weight loss.This is why as I mentioned in previous post going on calorie deficit is gonna be shooting yourself in the foot if waking temps are already only 97.2F (hypothyroid). and they will only drop by going on a deficit even further. Not in tune with the idea of workout more and eat less though at all. This is a DOUBLE stressor (stressor from working out AND stressor from eating less).

To answer the question though right now all I do is very minimal walking. I am playing with the idea of ultralight weightlifting (zero exertion, no running out of breath, absolutely no muscle burn, probably not exceed around 100 bpm HR during) as there is evidence to suggest that trying to get muscles to exude more testosterone can be beneficial to raise metabolism, but in hypothyroidism, you have to be very very careful as it is super easy to run into the cortisol pathway / lactic acid / losing T3 and CO2 with any form of exercise.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I have thought along these lines as well. The cost of obesity is probably greater than the cost of low carb diets

Cost to who? If you are referring to any sort of monetary cost, there is always a recipient(s) on the other end who benefits.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Stress can increase pulse in particular in the short term but it (in my experience) can not increase both temp AND pulse in the morning when you wake up.

I guess you've never been woken up by an adrenaline spike. I have. Heart pounding out of your chest, sheets soaked with sweat, temp and pulse easily both measuring over 99.

 

[Cirion]

I guess you've never been woken up by an adrenaline spike. I have. Heart pounding out of your chest, sheets soaked with sweat, temp and pulse easily both measuring over 99.

I think I did the first month or two I started Peating, I do vaguely remember some major sweating way back then, but not since then. I can't think of a single time the last 3+ months, nope.

 

[ecstatichamster]

the issue is that I can't lift my waking temperatures easily with diet. They had dropped with the "separate carbs and fat" program.

I take T3 and NDT. I think it just takes time to fix the hypothyroidism and isn't going to be any easier if I'm a bit fat.

It's easy to say "don't do this or you'll be hypo thyroid" but I'm already hypo thyroid. Cutting calories a bit -- well we'll see. So far it's actually helping my temperatures.

I was 185, then discovered Peat. Ended up at 220. Now I'm probably 195. 3 or 4 years later. This stuff ain't easy.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I would start with measuring blood sugar using a blood sugar meter. They're widely available and used by diabetics to keep tabs on their blood sugar. I have one myself, even though I'm not diabetic. Terumo is the brand I use, a Japanese brand.

I've used it lately to test my blood sugar while on a one-day fast. During the fast, my blood sugar was would go from 85 (which would be the value for my blood sugar in between meals) to 75 and maintain this value during the course of the fast. At the end of the fast, it would show that my glycogen is exhausted and would go down to 65. This test tells me that I have ample glycogen supply for 1 day, which is normal. With glycogen supply, a fast is possible because internal stores of sugar supplies one with sugar and with sugar in supply, one doesn't go into a stressed state. Without adequate glycogen supply, it would be hard to maintain a stable blood sugar, and frequent meals would be needed. Needless to say, fasting isn't helpful to one's health without an adequate glycogen to start with.

It's helpful to know if one's glycogen supply is adequate, and I think taking blood sugar measurements while fasting gives you that information.

But that is just one part of it. Even if one has adequate glycogen supply, and is capable of going through a day of fasting, it doesn't mean he can maintain stable blood sugar in a normal day when he eats. When he eats starch, a supply of glucose gets assimilated eventually into blood. If glucose isn't absorbed by tissue, it raises blood sugar. At some point, plenty of insulin is introduced into blood, and it triggers the liver to convert the blood sugar to fats. This can happen quickly too, such that blood glucose plummets. Even if one has glycogen stores, the body isn't introducing sugar from glycogen at a rate fast enough to compensate for the reduction in blood sugar. Low blood sugar will makes one hungry, or sleepy, or grouchy, and worse, weaken the immune system. Becoming hungry is the best outcome I think, as one would get a bite to eat, and it would restore blood sugar. This is why some people need to eat fairly often, grazing is their way to adapt to this condition and remain functional. Some doctors say this is normal for some people, and I would disagree. I've been there, and that's what my doctor would tell me.

The problem really is with the inability of the tissues to absorb glucose in one degree or another. I'm not talking about type 1 diabetics, who don't have insulin. With them, blood sugar would stay high, and they won't feel hungry at all. They're a different story. I'm talking about people whose pancreas still produce enough insulin. Ray is right about fatty acids blocking absorption of glucose. Ray is right also about fructose being absorbed by tissues despite the presence of fatty acids in the blood. This is why for some people, they feel better taking sucrose, which is half fructose half glucose, and feel terrible taking starch, such as white rice and white bread. Processed starch breaks down very quickly and is assimilated into blood very quickly, like a flash flood in the middle of summer in the Arizona desert. This deluge overwhelms the body's ability to absorb the sugar quickly enough (I refer to a person with faulty sugar absorption) and this leads to sugar accumulating in the blood, leading to high blood sugar. This eventually triggers an insulin reaction, and as explained earlier, to sugar converting to fat and to low blood sugar. When I was like that, I would eat more complex carbohydrates such as sweet potato and brown rice. The presence of fiber makes it harder for the starch to get converted to sugar, and this has the effect of metering sugar into blood slowly over a longer period of time, and my body was able to absorb the sugar at the rate it was being assimilated into blood. It also helps that I take a large portion of meat and fats in my meals.

I coped with my poor sugar absorption issues by eating more complex carbohydrates, and by eating brown rice instead of white rice. It was this way with me for about twenty years. Until I changed my oil intake. No more PUFAs, no more fish oil supplements. I listened to Brian Peskin, and he made sense. It was 4 years of no PUFAs, and two years ago I tried white rice again. I no longer felt empty 2-3 hours after eating. Same thing with white sugar. I never did find out if I would have done well coping using cane sugar, but I imagine I would have because of the fructose content.

So, now, when I take my blood sugar right after a meal and hours after a meal, I would initially see my blood sugar spike to 140, which may seem too much but only later I would say "but of course." But an hour after meal, and every hour after, I would see my blood sugar staying constant at around 85. This tells me that my blood sugar is stable, and that my glycogen stores would supply me with ample blood sugar long after the sugar from my meal is exhausted. There is no excessive insulin reaction triggering the conversion of sugar into fat, and I'm not eating more often because my blood sugar is low.

Contrast this with a person who has to eat more often, and each time he eats, converts sugar to fat, and you can see how having faulty sugar absorption affects a person's ability to avoid becoming overweight and worse, obese.

I think there are many myths the medical establishment foists on us about obesity and sugar. Ray's got it right about sugar. It's not bad. It's our body's ability to absorb it in the right manner that's faulty. I went through a period of self discovery in that aspect of it, and it's frustrating that you have so many experts pushing their dogma on paying clients intent of losing weight with so many diet plans. It just comes down to having your sugar absorption working correctly.

Get a blood sugar meter. It will be a very good investment. It will easily repay itself in your health. You'll be able to track your blood sugar easily. You'll understand what your problem is as far as blood sugar and obesity is concerned. You'll appreciate the importance of not having PUFAs and directly experience the benefit of it in the aspect of blood sugar control and maintaining a normal weight. And you'll enjoy the bad things - white sugar and white rice - and fruits (especially with the potassium aiding in sugar absorption). You won't have to graze all day. And you'll sleep better. Not have to doze off during the day. And your immunity is simply bolstered by a stable blood sugar supply - which provides for energy to fight off opportunistic pathogens that's always in your body but kept in check by an immune system well supplied with energy.

Edit: How many here has gone on with say 4 years of non-PUFA sticking with it faithfully? I bet not so many, given that it's hard when you go out to eat. But stay with it. Have faith in it. I had. Believe that PUFA is real bad. Stay away long enough. It took me 4 years. It's a very long time. I didn't think it would pay off, and this was even before I heard of Ray Peat. When I got to learn more of Ray Peat, it's when I decided to go off brown rice and into white. And that's when it hit me. I got it right sticking with no PUFA for so long.

this is an interesting option. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I have not been experiencing any stress reactions and I sleep through the night.

I'm not grazing all day anymore. This is working pretty well so far, it's only been 4 days. I fasted 36 hours with no problem.

I think the solution to blood sugar problems is laying off PUFAs (which I have been diligent about for 4 years) and low fat if that isn't enough. I'm on a pretty lowish fat regimen.

I have stuck with non PUFA quite faithfully. The only way I've gotten PUFA is in a bun of a burger at a restaurant. And the small amount of PUFA in grilled foods, or naturally found in ruminant meat. I have not had a single bit of pork, or anything but boneless skinless chicken, etc. etc. etc. I think it's helped HUGELY.

I don't think I have blood sugar issues. I think I would have had them...but I think I have so far dodged that bullet. But I may try your suggestion to see.

 

[tankasnowgod]

the issue is that I can't lift my waking temperatures easily with diet. They had dropped with the "separate carbs and fat" program.

I take T3 and NDT. I think it just takes time to fix the hypothyroidism and isn't going to be any easier if I'm a bit fat.

It's easy to say "don't do this or you'll be hypo thyroid" but I'm already hypo thyroid. Cutting calories a bit -- well we'll see. So far it's actually helping my temperatures.

I was 185, then discovered Peat. Ended up at 220. Now I'm probably 195. 3 or 4 years later. This stuff ain't easy.

There are two things that have significantly raised my waking temperature. One is adequate NDT. The other is Inclined Bed Therapy. With NDT, I could usually get to 98.0 waking taking between 2-3 grains a day. IBT is the thing that got waking temp regularly to 98.6 (still using NDT most of that time), and that did not feel like running on adrenaline. Andrew Fletcher mentioned that it seemed to prevent the 3am drop in temperature, and that has been my experience. Also, my heart doesn't work as hard, since gravity is doing most of the circulation work.

 

[YourUniverse]

Cost to who? If you are referring to any sort of monetary cost, there is always a recipient(s) on the other end who benefits.

cost to health

 

[tankasnowgod]

cost to health

Oh, then I think Low Carb diets are most costly. And also, its not an either/or. When I tried the Atikins diet, I didn't lose any weight. The times when I have successfully lost weight, it was always on a higher level of carbohydrate, at least around 90g or more per day.

 

[YourUniverse]

Oh, then I think Low Carb diets are most costly. And also, its not an either/or. When I tried the Atikins diet, I didn't lose any weight. The times when I have successfully lost weight, it was always on a higher level of carbohydrate, at least around 90g or more per day.

Im glad that worked for you

 

[yerrag]

this is an interesting option. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I have not been experiencing any stress reactions and I sleep through the night.

I'm not grazing all day anymore. This is working pretty well so far, it's only been 4 days. I fasted 36 hours with no problem.

I think the solution to blood sugar problems is laying off PUFAs (which I have been diligent about for 4 years) and low fat if that isn't enough. I'm on a pretty lowish fat regimen.

I have stuck with non PUFA quite faithfully. The only way I've gotten PUFA is in a bun of a burger at a restaurant. And the small amount of PUFA in grilled foods, or naturally found in ruminant meat. I have not had a single bit of pork, or anything but boneless skinless chicken, etc. etc. etc. I think it's helped HUGELY.

I don't think I have blood sugar issues. I think I would have had them...but I think I have so far dodged that bullet. But I may try your suggestion to see.

Would be interesting to consider other variables as well, since I was speaking strictly on a blood sugar absorption perspective. My experience assumes that my tissue oxygenation is adequate - blood can carry oxygen adequately from oxygen that the lungs enable. Mercury toxicity could cut down the oxygen carrying capacity of blood and there would be hypoxemia. I had this before I underwent mercury chelation. And then even if there's no hypoxemia, oxygen may not be freely transferred to tissues due to low CO2 in the blood; the reduced tissue oxygenation would also affect the rate at which blood sugar is used, and absorbed. This is something both of us is aware of, as Ray Peat talks about the importance of CO2 in this regard. If our metabolism isn't efficient and the byproducts of our metabolism favor lactic acid and keto acid production at the expense of CO2, the CO2 content in our blood would be lessened and this would hamper proper tissue oxygenation, and we would be running on hypoxic conditions. The lack of oxygen would lead to downregulation of metabolism, and we may see this is reduced heart rate as well.

In my special case, where I have plaques, I can see tissue oxygenation to be reduced as well, so my heart rate is lower as plaque would limit tissue oxygenation. I have more weight issues lately, not obese but slightly overweight. I'm boosting my metabolism with coffee and with stearyl alcohol,but that also results in increased blood pressure. But with increased metabolism, I can see the quick effects of my belly paunch going away.

I think that as long as we can find the cause of why our metabolism is low, we can slowly work towards eliminating that cause, and then we can depend less on metabolic boosters to increase our metabolism. But as we get older, that may be harder to do given how much harder it is to find a cause, much less the multiple causes involved. And with metabolism operating at a lower level, we can easily get overweight. It may even have to get to a point, if the causes are not identified and resolved, we may have to accept a lower metabolism as a protective mechanism of the body's adaptation, and we may even have to see the added fat as protective.

 

[Cirion]

Yes, lack of CO2 is one of the main problems of metabolism. That's why I wish I had a Capnograph, so I could measure it, as VoS said we want to be around 6% CO2 saturation. Where it can get confusing, though, is I am pretty sure Haidut or someone smarter than me had said that there is a difference between CO2 in the bloodstream and CO2 in the cells. So it's very possible to have high blood CO2 yet low CO2 in the cells themselves. Much like how it is possible to have high blood sugar yet low sugar uptake in the cells themselves. So looking at blood sugar by itself is not all that meaningful. Yes, when one is sick, there will be blood sugar swings at first, it is fruitless to try to avoid them, as it won't be possible, and if you do, it will involve not eating enough food to recover. The medical community has done a great job of demonizing high blood sugar, which is why insulin is such a popular drug. Ironically, artificially lowering this high blood sugar is likely to cause more issues in the long run as high blood sugar is protective when one is sick. Much like how high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and more, are all protective in a sick organism. None of these are normal, of course, but they are there to protect you from further harm.

Also, the CO2/lactic acid issue is coupled. In someone hypothyroid, the body has trouble producing CO2 and often wastes energy on lactic acid instead. This is one reason I argue that energy intake needs to increase, not decrease, in the case of hypothyroid (in the form of carbohydrate). On a per gram basis, someone sicker requires more carbohydrate to generate the required CO2 levels that we need for optimal metabolism. Unfortunately, some of that will indeed go to lactic acid, so the process of getting well will feel uncomfortable at times (release of PUFA, lactic acid, and more). As one gets healthier, the conversion of carbs to CO2 becomes more efficient, which means someone healthy likely needs far less carbohydrate to still function well. Part of what improves the efficiency is the eventual purging of PUFA/fats from the body fat stores (if one is overweight). So, I predict that less carbohydrates are needed as weight is lost, probably.

At the end of the day, it is an energy deficiency in the body that causes hypothyroid which is why I say a caloric deficit is precisely the opposite of what should be done to cure it. A highly energetic organism is the one with good metabolism and one that is free of disease and disorder. Literally by definition, a caloric deficit is also an energy deficit, the exact opposite of what you want when you're already in an energy deficit (hypo). In this context, though energy is not equal to just any calories. I am mostly talking about carbs here. So this doesn't give one authority to blindly gorge on any type of calories. The focus should be on carbohydrate, as this is the macronutrient that directly generates CO2 in the body, which is severely depleted in the hypothyroid individual. If you give in to too much fat with the carbohydrates, the ability to generate CO2 just gets worse, due to the randle cycle, and you'll probably just end up generating more lactic acid instead.

As ecstactichamster found out first hand, his temps started to improve upon ditching the fats entirely. Not at all surprised given all this and from what I have learned first hand both from research and data tracking. I agree that health can be complex, but I firmly believe the answer is actually rather simple for (a lot) of people -- which is, eat enough carbs. Not just eat more calories, I absolutely agree that's the wrong answer -- but more carbs, less fats/pufa's, and the right kind of protein amino acids (not methionine, tryptophan, cystine, or histidine).

 

[ilikecats]

dont mind me... just over here down 25-30 lbs in the last half a year eating 5000-7000 calories everyday. Most people dont seem to be diligently experimenting with valid methods to improve health and metabolism. Some of you guys post so much it'd be impossible for you to do just that. "I've tried it all" no you haven't you haven't even scratched the surface (I'm just scratching the surface). If you haven't experimented with cynomel and cynoplus (not just some dog ***t NDT that's not standardized with an arm length of ingedients at all (they're all UNSTANDARDIZED btw you can't standardize them without testing each batch on live organisms)) extensively for months (with a variety of dosages) then I dont know what to tell you. And that's just one aspect of the game. And im not talking to anyone in particular btw I see it all the time. For another example lets go down another rabbit whole.... what's your light set up? Do you have a set up where you can regularly expose yourself to AT LEAST 1500 watts of light (130v bulbs for optimum redlight to blue light ratios)? if not just....

Sorry if I come off a little harsh, Im just PASSIONATE and a little obsessive.

Calories in calories out does matter! if I ate 12000 calories a day Id probably gain weight. The point is to increase the metabolism to the point where you can eat as many calories as you can without making yourself sick and still lose weight.

 

[Cirion]

dont mind me... just over here down 25-30 lbs in the last half a year eating 5000-7000 calories everyday. Most people dont seem to be diligently experimenting with valid methods to improve health and metabolism. Some of you guys post so much it'd be impossible for you to do just that. "I've tried it all" no you haven't you haven't even scratched the surface (I'm just scratching the surface). If you haven't experimented with cynomel and cynoplus (not some dog ***t NDT that's not standardized with an arm length of ingedients at all (they're all UNSTANDARDIZED btw you can't standardize them without testing each batch on live organisms)) extensively for months (with a variety of dosages) then I dont know what to tell you. And that's just one aspect of the game. And im not talking to anyone in particular btw I see it all the time. For another example lets go down another rabbit whole.... what's your light set up? Do you have a set up where you can regularly expose yourself to AT LEAST 1500 watts of light (130v bulbs for optimum redlight to blue light ratios)? if not just....

cheers. Thanks for being a voice of reason. You are here proof that eating your way to health works. I hope I will be behind you soon also with 25-30 lb weight loss =) Pretty confident I will be. Lol, and you eat even more calories than me! Good stuff. Data tracking was the game changer for me. And not just one variable, like blood pressure, or blood sugar. I track over 100 parameters now in my spreadsheet. Wanna get well? That's what it takes. I wasted a year just screwing around, and just a few weeks of tracking gargantuan amounts of data has changed my life.

100% spot on. people just give up, say Ray is wrong / claim they have tried it all / completely discount the fact that many here have lost weight on high amounts of calories, and go on a calorie deficit. There's a reason people lose weight on high calories. Hint: It's NOT "good genetics" or otherwise a fluke. That's the easy way out. The hard/fun part is learning how to actually get a good metabolism because it absolutely can be done =) Alot of this boils down to the mental breakdown that happens in hypothyroid. I know I got mad at you in the past for some posts you made towards me, but now I see the light... and now... I get it... it all makes sense now. Sure, there's lots I still don't understand. Like you said... always learning. But my mind is in a much better place now and the pieces fit together so much better for me now.

I don't even personally think thyroid is needed at all (I am starting to reliably get 98.3F+ waking temps with zero thyroid) but I can see how it could be helpful for sure.