When Does The Excessive Appetite Diminish?

[Cirion]

I started off with RP with 80/10/10 carb/protein/fat and that did not work out for me appetite wise (upwards of 1200g carbs a day and often still hungry), so I switched to a bit more moderate macro split (about 20-40-40) but even with the increased fat I'm still pounding the calories with a seemingly un-ending appetite.

We're talking 5000-6000 calories a day lately. What's insane, is that I still wake up in the middle of the night with hunger and adrenaline spikes, even with all this. It's just getting out of hand...

I need to get this under control or my body fat gains are going to be epic :/

31 y/o male 6'0" up to around 205 lbs now, already almost the heaviest I have been in my life.

I'm thinking of bumping my fats up some more and dropping my carbs. Sugar has basically zero satiation for me and I just keep on endlessly eating it.

Problem is, Saturated fats, do not seem to give me mental clarity (aka, improve "brain fog") like sugar does, so I'm afraid that if I drop sugar more than my brain fog will return.

What to do?

I am trying not to sound like I have an eating disorder, but it's hard not to when I'm eating and gaining weight at this pace... But I think I have no choice but to swap more sugar to fat, as this is just getting ridiculous. Probably do 60% fats like what Kreese here does and has had success with.

 

[raypeatclips]

Do you eat starch?

 

[Cirion]

Do you eat starch?

No. It is a little more satiating than sugar, but it's anti-metabolic compared to sugar, and goes against basically all of RP's suggestions to eat sugar instead of starch.

I don't know anyone here that has had success with starch as the staple carbohydrate, that I've seen.

I mean I know what my problem is. My liver storage is FUBAR. RP is well aware of this problem, and it sounds like his suggestion would just be to keep pounding sugar until it's not a problem?

 

[raypeatclips]

No. It is a little more satiating than sugar, but it's anti-metabolic compared to sugar, and goes against basically all of RP's suggestions to eat sugar instead of starch.

Been there, done it. Eating 1200g of carbs is not normal behaviour or healthy.

 

[Cirion]

Been there, done it. Eating 1200g of carbs is not normal behaviour or healthy.

I agree that it's not normal. But it's because my liver glucose storage capacity is FUBAR. How does one fix it without eating 1200g of carbs?

How is eating starch going to fix that? Again, that's against almost all of the RP philosophy because starch is anti-metabolic?

Starch does not give me energy like sugar does. Nor does it fix my brain fog. Basically damned if I do damned if I don't...

 

[raypeatclips]

I agree that it's not normal. But it's because my liver glucose storage capacity is FUBAR. How does one fix it without eating 1200g of carbs?

How is eating starch going to fix that? Again, that's against almost all of the RP philosophy because starch is anti-metabolic?

You said you are gaining weight at a huge rate, and need to get this under control. How pro-metabolic can your diet be right now, gaining weight every day and being unable to sleep soundly through the night? I've been in exactly the same position you have and it absolutely sucks.

What is your diet now?

 

[Cirion]

Again, not to sound like a broken record, but RP himself said that while healing, you're going to have liver glucose problems (probably) and will probably have to wake up in the middle of the night to eat, possibly repeatedly. I guess I'm just worried that, I'm not healing, and it's taking longer than I'd like... problem is though, getting fat is not pro-metabolic, and undermines the whole process no doubt, so I feel like I'm in a Catch 22 situation, you know?

Lately my staples have been oranges, apples, watermelon, canteloupe, grapes, OJ, cheese, carrots, chocolate, eggs, coconut oil, grass fed beef, gelatin mostly. I don't even drink milk and opt for cheese instead to minimize my liquids to OJ only.

What's your diet look like? And how did you fix it?

 

[raypeatclips]

It's up to you. I tried mostly sugar and felt horrific, waking up with pounding adrenaline at night etc etc. Increasing fat was helpful, but increasing starch as well as fat was a game changer. I'll let you into a little secret, if you promise to hold onto your chair as you read this? I am losing weight eating starch.

I pretty much almost feel like a "normal" person.

My diet is pretty much 33/33/33 I think. Half my carbs from starch, half from sugar approximately, this probably varies day to day (for some reason 100% of either doesn't feel as good as a mixture of both) Probably about half my protein from meat, half from dairy, although recently maybe more meat than dairy, I'm not sure too much calcium does me good. I make sure I have eat macro at every meal. Fat comes from higher fat dairy, fatty meat, butter, chocolate, ice cream. Vegetables at every meal. Only white sugar is whatever is in my ice cream and chocolate.


Why not try eat some well boiled starch over the next few days, with some fat with the meal? Whats the worst than can happen? You are already gaining weight at a fast rate, so if you gain a bit of weight, there will be no difference there, right?

 

[Cirion]

It's up to you. I tried mostly sugar and felt horrific, waking up with pounding adrenaline at night etc etc. Increasing fat was helpful, but increasing starch as well as fat was a game changer. I'll let you into a little secret, if you promise to hold onto your chair as you read this? I am losing weight eating starch.

I pretty much almost feel like a "normal" person.

My diet is pretty much 33/33/33 I think. Half my carbs from starch, half from sugar approximately, this probably varies day to day (for some reason 100% of either doesn't feel as good as a mixture of both) Probably about half my protein from meat, half from dairy, although recently maybe more meat than dairy, I'm not sure too much calcium does me good. I make sure I have eat macro at every meal. Fat comes from higher fat dairy, fatty meat, butter, chocolate, ice cream. Vegetables at every meal. Only white sugar is whatever is in my ice cream and chocolate.


Why not try eat some well boiled starch over the next few days, with some fat with the meal? Whats the worst than can happen? You are already gaining weight at a fast rate, so if you gain a bit of weight, there will be no difference there, right?

Seems like a fair mix of macros. Starch just makes me crash usually, I already know this. So even if it doesn't make me gain weight, it doesn't do it for me energy wise...

Honestly, I'm about to just go back to KETO. That's actually the diet that worked best for me, with perhaps just a small bit of carbs from sugars (so not technically keto, but ultra high fat).

I guess I'm just losing faith in the RP way if no one here actually follows it lol, in which case we all might as well just do our own thing? Has a single person on this forum thrived on the true RP way of eating? Which is almost all calories from sugar, and almost none/none from fat?

It seems like all the veteran forum posters here have at least 30%, and up to 60% of calories from fats (saturated).

I guess RP did say that up to 50% of calories from saturated fats is OK though.

 

[raypeatclips]

Seems like a fair mix of macros. Starch just makes me crash usually, I already know this. So even if it doesn't make me gain weight, it doesn't do it for me energy wise...

Honestly, I'm about to just go back to KETO. That's actually the diet that worked best for me, with perhaps just a small bit of carbs from sugars (so not technically keto, but ultra high fat).

I guess I'm just losing faith in the RP way if no one here actually follows it lol, in which case we all might as well just do our own thing? Has a single person on this forum thrived on the true RP way of eating? Which is almost all calories from sugar, and almost none/none from fat?

It seems like all the veteran forum posters here have at least 30%, and up to 60% of calories from fats (saturated).

I guess RP did say that up to 50% of calories from saturated fats is OK though.

When you say nobody "actually follows it" you need to remember that the "Peat way of eating" is not a strict set of guidelines, that need to be followed even when you don't feel good and your health is getting worse IMO. Peat is very intelligent, but shouldn't be followed like a god. It sounds like you are very orthorexic and almost afraid to eat something that isn't "Peat approved." I was like this for a long time too. I think it is healthy to eat food that you have told yourself is "forbidden" until you start eating everything, and decide what makes you feel good and what doesn't. Diet should be a matter of what makes you feel better for eating, rather than what is approved. I don't eat certain foods because I know they consistently make me feel worse than before, I don't eat them because I don't want to feel shitty, not because they are "forbidden." I sometimes eat a high PUFA meal in a restaurant with friends and family, (less than once a month) I don't really care about that anymore. The rest of my diet is high saturated fat, one meal isn't the end of the world. When I began to eat starch, I worried that it wasn't "Peat approved" or that there might be some persorportion issues etc that people on here like quoting. After a few weeks/months of including it in my diet I began to think, what is the worse that has happened? I could go longer between meals, I wasn't constantly snacking, I slept well through the night, I felt calmer and warmer.

With this being said, I boil my starch thoroughly and rarely eat "dry starch." Maybe this has some effect. Starch on here is talked about ridiculously. Like people eating a fruit, feeling bad and blaming the starch, when nutrition websites say the fruit contains 0g of starch. It is almost like the boogieman. Other people saying they ate some restaurant food and blaming the starch.

I am also pretty sure it isn't "Peat approved" to become overly obsessed and orthorexic about diet (I got this way too, not a jab) He has said people should eat delicious food, and to also "think, perceive, act." There have been many people living over 100 that include starch in their diet, and don't worry if a man named Ray Peat thinks its okay to eat or not.


When you say you eat starch and crash. What sort of starch? Do you have a good amount of fat, protein and sugar alongside the meal? Or are you talking about a plate or plain potatoes and nothing else?

 

[lampofred]

You might be hypothyroid. Peat said that he would eat 6000-7000 calories (forgot exactly what number but it was ridiculously high) but once he started taking thyroid, he only needed around half of that because thyroid both allows your liver to store more glucose and increases metabolic efficiency so that you get much more energy from the same number of calories. Coffee and vitamin K2 will also help to strengthen your liver.

 

[lampofred]

I guess I'm just losing faith in the RP way if no one here actually follows it lol, in which case we all might as well just do our own thing? Has a single person on this forum thrived on the true RP way of eating? Which is almost all calories from sugar, and almost none/none from fat?

You might be misinterpreting Peat's suggestions. He says no PUFA but not no fat. He has actually said 10% of calories from fat is too low and that 20% is probably good.

 

[lampofred]

.

 

[Cirion]

When you say nobody "actually follows it" you need to remember that the "Peat way of eating" is not a strict set of guidelines, that need to be followed even when you don't feel good and your health is getting worse IMO. Peat is very intelligent, but shouldn't be followed like a god. It sounds like you are very orthorexic and almost afraid to eat something that isn't "Peat approved." I was like this for a long time too. I think it is healthy to eat food that you have told yourself is "forbidden" until you start eating everything, and decide what makes you feel good and what doesn't. Diet should be a matter of what makes you feel better for eating, rather than what is approved. I don't eat certain foods because I know they consistently make me feel worse than before, I don't eat them because I don't want to feel shitty, not because they are "forbidden." I sometimes eat a high PUFA meal in a restaurant with friends and family, (less than once a month) I don't really care about that anymore. The rest of my diet is high saturated fat, one meal isn't the end of the world. When I began to eat starch, I worried that it wasn't "Peat approved" or that there might be some persorportion issues etc that people on here like quoting. After a few weeks/months of including it in my diet I began to think, what is the worse that has happened? I could go longer between meals, I wasn't constantly snacking, I slept well through the night, I felt calmer and warmer.

With this being said, I boil my starch thoroughly and rarely eat "dry starch." Maybe this has some effect. Starch on here is talked about ridiculously. Like people eating a fruit, feeling bad and blaming the starch, when nutrition websites say the fruit contains 0g of starch. It is almost like the boogieman. Other people saying they ate some restaurant food and blaming the starch.

I am also pretty sure it isn't "Peat approved" to become overly obsessed and orthorexic about diet (I got this way too, not a jab) He has said people should eat delicious food, and to also "think, perceive, act." There have been many people living over 100 that include starch in their diet, and don't worry if a man named Ray Peat thinks its okay to eat or not.


When you say you eat starch and crash. What sort of starch? Do you have a good amount of fat, protein and sugar alongside the meal? Or are you talking about a plate or plain potatoes and nothing else?

Hey man, appreciate it, and I pretty much totally agree with most of your thoughts.

The only thing I would say... Keto if you aren't used to it has an adaptation period, and most people quit before getting used to it, and then proceed to trash a diet they don't understand, i'm not saying keto is necessarily a perfect diet (it has its flaws). My point is to draw a similar analogy to the very high sugar (almost opposite of keto if you will). I think most people (including myself) want to throw in the towel before actually adapting to high sugar, and thus never really reaping the benefits.

Now, however, this begs the question that I have and you probably have as well - is it worth the pain of adaptation to a high sugar diet (i:e, is the ultimate benefit worth the pain of getting there?) For me, I really don't know, as I've never done it before. I mean, if it's truly the holy grail, I'd be down for it. My thing is it seems to take way longer to adapt to very high sugar than it does to adapt to high fat / keto. Also i'm the type of person that distrusts most things until I experience its effects firsthand (I didn't think keto would be any good for example.. i got the infamous "keto flu" starting off but ultimately enjoyed a solid 2 yrs on keto with much benefit)

Long rant, with that, I'm gonna increase my saturated fats some more i think, probably to around 60%, my body likes fat...

 

[raypeatclips]

Hey man, appreciate it, and I pretty much totally agree with most of your thoughts.

The only thing I would say... Keto if you aren't used to it has an adaptation period, and most people quit before getting used to it, and then proceed to trash a diet they don't understand, i'm not saying keto is necessarily a perfect diet (it has its flaws). My point is to draw a similar analogy to the very high sugar (almost opposite of keto if you will). I think most people (including myself) want to throw in the towel before actually adapting to high sugar, and thus never really reaping the benefits.

Now, however, this begs the question that I have and you probably have as well - is it worth the pain of adaptation to a high sugar diet (i:e, is the ultimate benefit worth the pain of getting there?) For me, I really don't know, as I've never done it before. I mean, if it's truly the holy grail, I'd be down for it. My thing is it seems to take way longer to adapt to very high sugar than it does to adapt to high fat / keto. Also i'm the type of person that distrusts most things until I experience its effects firsthand (I didn't think keto would be any good for example.. i got the infamous "keto flu" starting off but ultimately enjoyed a solid 2 yrs on keto with much benefit)

Long rant, with that, I'm gonna increase my saturated fats some more i think, probably to around 60%, my body likes fat...

In my opinion and in my experience, the exact opposite was true. When I undertook a keto diet about 7 years ago, eating as little carbs as possible, I felt fantastic, full of energy etc. Told everyone that would listen how bad and evil carbs were (which I cringe thinking about now) Then after a few months of supposedly running on stress hormones I crashed, and crashed hard. I have read many other people say the same thing.

It is up to you if you think eating sugar has an adaption period, sure if the body isn't used to sugar, there will be some changes going on, but IMO eating 1200g carbs is not normal and isn't going to end well. I could be wrong though, don't take my word for it.

 

[Vinero]

I agree with everything @raypeatclips said, eating 1200 grams of carbohydrates a day as sugar is insane.
The fact that you wake up at night with adrenalin spikes is a great sign that whatever you are doing right now isnt working.
How is your protein intake? Are you getting something like 80 to 100 grams of protein a day?
Try to eat something like White rice with a piece of lean meat and some cooked veggies and see how that makes you feel.

 

[Cirion]

When you say you eat starch and crash. What sort of starch? Do you have a good amount of fat, protein and sugar alongside the meal? Or are you talking about a plate or plain potatoes and nothing else?

I usually try to combine them (sometimes I don't). I would try to time most of my starch in the evenings because of the crash, because then at least they'd help me to sleep. I realized by having starch/grain in the afternoon, I got the dreaded "mid afternoon energy crisis". I have never tried a combination of both starch and sugar/fruit though, not sure how I'd react to that.

You might be hypothyroid. Peat said that he would eat 6000-7000 calories (forgot exactly what number but it was ridiculously high) but once he started taking thyroid, he only needed around half of that because thyroid both allows your liver to store more glucose and increases metabolic efficiency so that you get much more energy from the same number of calories. Coffee and vitamin K2 will also help to strengthen your liver.

Oh, I already know my liver glucose storage abilities are FUBAR, for sure. I don't like to over use caffeine because it causes further energy problems for me in the long run. I've heard the studies that claim caffeine improves liver function, but that hasn't really been the case for me. I'm a poor metabolizer of caffeine. Yes, I think Peat said in his youth he ate upwards of 8000 calories even (crazy).

I'm wondering if it is the fact he is "cheating" and taking thyroid that makes him able to metabolize sugar so well (in fact it is, as you say). What about the rest of us "lay" folk who don't take supplements like thyroid?

You might be misinterpreting Peat's suggestions. He says no PUFA but not no fat. He has actually said 10% of calories from fat is too low and that 20% is probably good.

True, not zero fat. 20% is still pretty low fat though IMO.

In my opinion and in my experience, the exact opposite was true. When I undertook a keto diet about 7 years ago, eating as little carbs as possible, I felt fantastic, full of energy etc. Told everyone that would listen how bad and evil carbs were (which I cringe thinking about now) Then after a few months of supposedly running on stress hormones I crashed, and crashed hard. I have read many other people say the same thing.

It is up to you if you think eating sugar has an adaption period, sure if the body isn't used to sugar, there will be some changes going on, but IMO eating 1200g carbs is not normal and isn't going to end well. I could be wrong though, don't take my word for it.

Fair enough. You might have simply been eating too low fat (or too low saturated fat specifically, or perhaps too much PUFA... several possibilities). Still gotta get the calories in, only reason I suspect you crashed. I suppose it's possible some don't do as well on it though. It's still not a perfect diet, to be sure, it wasn't for me, my main problem was poor gym performance & lots of weird chronic aches and pains that adding a reasonable amount of carbs back into the diet solved. Though, I wonder if that's because I ate too many PUFA - that probably exasperated my chronic inflammations. I used to love all nut butters - peanut butter, almond butter, cashew butter... I was a PUFA addict lol. There's a young guy at my work that is pretty fit. I don't think he's all that healthy though. He eats like a bird, I see his meals, they are kinda sad and low calorie. He's pretty low BF but I know he doesn't eat much to maintain that, from what I can see. I saw him with a bag of peanuts today and I just wanted to cry inside, he's killing himself with PUFA arghhh I wanted to just pull him aside and just be like dude... throw that in the trash haha

For whatever reason in the bodybuilding world, Peanut butter is the "magical anabolic food" among bros... poor guys don't know the damage they're doing to themselves.

Yes, high sugar has a long adaptation time. High sugar diet has as much as a 4 yr adaptation period in the worst case scenario (full PUFA depletion as well as improving insulin sensitivity, as well as liver glucose storage, all of which take a very long time depending how messed up you are).

How many of us have the patience to ride out it out for 4 yrs, on the hopes it will work? I wish I had that much patience, but I really don't lol... unless I was 100% sure it was actually gonna work, which I'm not.

I agree with everything @raypeatclips said, eating 1200 grams of carbohydrates a day as sugar is insane.
The fact that you wake up at night with adrenalin spikes is a great sign that whatever you are doing right now isnt working.
How is your protein intake? Are you getting something like 80 to 100 grams of protein a day?
Try to eat something like White rice with a piece of lean meat and some cooked veggies and see how that makes you feel.

I get loads of protein. Often 150-200g+. Not lacking there. I actually find it almost impossible to get only 100-150, since everything has protein in it. I agree, 1200g of sugar is insane. I used to do lean proteins + starchy carbs with little to no fats before I arrived at Peat. It was in fact what ruined my health in the first place.

BTW it's worth noting that some users here had to eat 10-12,000 calories (unfortunately, name escapes me off top of my head) a day, far more than my 5000-6000, to adapt to using sugar. Is that normal? Lol hell no, but it just shows you that there is indeed a brutal adaptation to using sugar, it would seem, that 90-95% of people here aren't willing to undergo (and can you blame them? I don't wanna do it either! lol) It's probably why almost no one here has a success story using sugar exclusively, because of the extreme measures required to make it work. I just wish some of the people who have had to do said 10,000 calories a day were available for comment, to tell us if it was worth this hassle or not. I posted on one of them a while back but didn't get a response back sadly.

I think what RP (I'm not RP, so not putting words in his mouth but... based upon what I've seen him say...) would probably say is this: Start off with higher calories from saturated fats as they are protective against PUFA and what not. Do this for a while, and SLOWLY start to trade fats for carbs (sugar) until over a period of time (months,years) you finally arrive at a high sugar low fat diet.

The guys who jumped straight into 60-70%+ calories from sugar I guess then caused more pain for themselves than they had to, and it ultimately worked for them, at the cost of lots of body fat gain and whatnot, so at the end of the day... yeah, it's probably not worth it lol at least not jumping right into it

 

[YourUniverse]

Try some more fat in place of sugar, it will slow the digestion of the sugar and keep your blood sugar from dropping and causing adrenaline

 

[Cirion]

Try some more fat in place of sugar, it will slow the digestion of the sugar and keep your blood sugar from dropping and causing adrenaline

Yessir this is what I'm doing now :)

In fact, I already feel better this evening. Just had 4 oz of cheese and some chocolate and feeling clearer headed and energetic as well as a slightly more stable appetite :)

My only thing about chocolate though is it has caffeine, so I should probably cool it. I think I'm a little extra wired because of the caffeine... lol

Also feel my libido returning. Sugar seems to tank my libido for whatever reason... weird

You know -

I did just have another random thought though about the sugar. I wonder if it's worth purposefully engaging in extremely strenuous workouts just about every day of the week while consuming insane amounts of the carbs. Could this help force your body to adapt to them? Or would this just be a recipe for thyroid burnout?

Strongmen competitors regularly get 1000+g carbs a day, if not more. Michael phelps ate 10,000 calories a day, probably mostly from carbs.

 

[raypeatclips]

I think @DaveFoster was the 10,000 calorie person you were talking about.