Carb And Fat Separation Didn’t Work - I’m Counting Calories Now

[yerrag]

dont mind me... just over here down 25-30 lbs in the last half a year eating 5000-7000 calories everyday. Most people dont seem to be diligently experimenting with valid methods to improve health and metabolism. Some of you guys post so much it'd be impossible for you to do just that. "I've tried it all" no you haven't you haven't even scratched the surface (I'm just scratching the surface). If you haven't experimented with cynomel and cynoplus (not just some dog ***t NDT that's not standardized with an arm length of ingedients at all (they're all UNSTANDARDIZED btw you can't standardize them without testing each batch on live organisms)) extensively for months (with a variety of dosages) then I dont know what to tell you. And that's just one aspect of the game. And im not talking to anyone in particular btw I see it all the time. For another example lets go down another rabbit whole.... what's your light set up? Do you have a set up where you can regularly expose yourself to AT LEAST 1500 watts of light (130v bulbs for optimum redlight to blue light ratios)? if not just....

Sorry if I come off a little harsh, Im just PASSIONATE and a little obsessive.

Calories in calories out does matter! if I ate 12000 calories a day Id probably gain weight. The point is to increase the metabolism to the point where you can eat as many calories as you can without making yourself sick and still lose weight.

Sounds like a good story. Hope that it will have a happy ending as well. Not knowing your context, it still seems there's something more to losing 25-30 lbs while eating so much. The Cynomel and Cynoplus adds some context to it. I'm reminded of my cats though. They got hyperthyroid, developed large lumps in their thyroid glands, was plump, then suddenly grew thin as the glands grew. One died but I was glad I connected its death to the lumps. I was able to save the next cat, giving it selenomethionine, the lumps disappeared, and he's now back to being plump.

This would be a good read or viewing: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/the-antioxidant-system/

But don't mind me. Just sayin'

 

[DrJ]

I admit to not fully reading through this thread, but I reliably lose weight when I focus on reducing cortisol through lifestyle, diet, and some key cortisol-reducing supps. Granted, I also take care to avoid too much starch or too much muscle meat which increases insulin, while also avoiding PUFA for obvious reasons. But I don't have to count calories. I have been experiencing extreme stress at work with 65+ hour weeks since before the start of the year, and a lot of on-site demos in which failure is not acceptable so stakes are high. I had been at 184lb in December and I'm 5'10". That's the heaviest I've ever been and I did not like it. I realized one day it was troublesome to tie my shoes, so decided to make an effort. I've dropped to 168lb despite the stress by managing with supps and dog walks to chill out. I also am consuming massive amounts of sugar with caffeine to blunt cortisol and try to keep metabolism up. In a mental state, I'm ready to give up, but in a physical state I've returned to pretty svelte. I should note that my mental state is more of a considered "this is not worth it and I can detach" with still a general sense of optimism, so hopefully not in learned helplessness mode. My supps are 34g/day gelatin in 2 doses, 2 drops lapodin/day in one dose, 4 drops pansterone/day in one dose, 1 aspirin/day, 1mg K2/day in one dose, and 2g taurine/day in 2x 1g doses. I also schedule a solid 4 hours of near full-body sun exposure on the weekends. Since dropping the weight I get massively hit on at work, but I am also not in the mental mood to banter back which I think is bad. I've never quite been in this state before, but I think Peat-ish things are still quite working given the non-ideal circumstances.

 

[CLASH]

@Cirion
Have you lost weight yet? A few days ago you said you didnt.

@ecstatichamster
What foods are you eating? You may be able to lose weight by changing the foods as opposed to lowering calories.

 

[danielbb]

@ecstatichamster has a way of starting threads that bring up the best and the worst of this forum at the same time. Fascinating stuff. When people argue dogmatically, they stop making sense to me. When people post reasonably and thoughtfully like @yerrag and many others here, then we can build off useful experiences together and collectively figure out strategies (i.e., mobilize fat stores) that make sense in each of our given contexts which is obviously different because each of us were given slightly different codes as a base to begin our journey in life with. None of us can say with absolute certainty how any substance or combination of substances may react in a given individual. Some substances may be highly beneficial for one person and highly allergic to another. None of us can know (including highly trained medical professionals and Phd biologists) what those substance and substance/combinations might be unless we try them for ourselves and see.

Anybody ever watch the season ending series of the show Survivor? The contestants are almost to a person 6-pack ripped at the end of each season. Why is that? Hormonal supplements? Supplements? Massive doses of sugar? Filet mignon at every meal? Massive calories eaten at each meal? What we are talking about is how our bodies process energy. If we are processing it efficiently like @yerrag suggests, things stabilize and a relatively small amount of energy intake will burn stably for hours without intensive feelings of starving or extreme hunger. Why in the hell would I want to eat according to some formula? Why not use my body's normal feedback signals to tell me when and how much energy I ACTUALLY need? Why not drink water when I am thirsty rather than some silly marketing gimmick that says I need X glasses of water per day? Why do people chase protein according to a formula? Why are we overthinking a perfect bio-feedback system that has been perfected over millions of years? I'll concede that many of us have gotten our bodies into a non-regulatory condition and thus things seem confusing and contradictory to how they might otherwise be if we were actually regulating energy (e.g., regulating metabolism) properly.

I never measured my blood sugar like @yerrag has done, but my symptoms are similar to his. When your body is regulating energy properly, it will tell you precisely how much to eat - where small amounts of food (energy intake) will burn comfortably for long periods of time. If you presently have large deposits of fat on your body, use the stored fat for energy rather than stuffing your pie-hole for it. That strategy of using your stored body fat for energy will work if reasonable mindfulness toward a goal is applied over time.

 

[ecstatichamster]

@Cirion
Have you lost weight yet? A few days ago you said you didnt.

@ecstatichamster
What foods are you eating? You may be able to lose weight by changing the foods as opposed to lowering calories.

Potatoes or yams
OJ, grape juice
Coffee with sugar
Milk
Collagen, gelatin
Lean muscle meat
Cheese
Cottage cheese
Egg
Liver
Berries, melons, mangoes

Vitamin K2
Aspirin
Progesterone
Vitamin E succinate
T3 and NDT
Calcium maleate
Mg Carbonate
Pregnenolone
D3 if I don’t get enough sunlight
Huperizine, galantamine
Cyproheptadine if needed for seasonal hay fever (need should end this week) 2mg per day

 

[ecstatichamster]

You know what’s interesting to me these days. Someone like Dr. Stanley Bass and “natural hygiene” people. Dr. Bass is probably 102 and very functional and vital by all accounts. The idea they have is to eat less.

He’s not the only one like that either.

I feel I have been eating too much and too frequently for a long time. Before this, I was doing various low-carb-and-binge strategies. I’d binge on pistachios. Avocados. White chocolate chips. Huge bowls of ice cream. Etc.

This idea of counting introduces consciousness and removes the idea that I’m eating too much. Because I’m not eating too much. I can see it spelled out plainly.

I’m not yet losing any fat to speak of but it’s been short of a week. I can sustain this forever. It is easy. And I’m no longer grazing between meals.

It’s fine to say “just eat according to what your body says” but what if your body is like mine and it isn’t perceiving properly?

I was hyperventilating most of my life. I “felt like” I needed all that air. I was inhaling 3 X too much air. Since I fixed that, everything in my life became amazing and I got rid of medications and I”m healthy now. I define that as not needing doctors, not needing medication. My teeth are good. Even my cracked heels are better (and that’s been 15 or 20 years of cracked heels).

So eating according to what you feel like? I did that for awhile and it wasn’t working for me.

 

[aquaman]

As long as your temps and pulses are high, you're golden, these are the true markers of metabolism. As is CO2 and a few others, if you can afford a capnograph. Fix temp/pulses/CO2, fix ALL other diseases and disorders down the chain, including obesity. High metabolism is the secret to the "Fountain of Youth" and all it entails. I agree that my method to increased metabolism might not apply to all(high carb low fat low protein), but Fixing temps/pulses/CO2 IS however a universal strategy to everyone, in whatever manner you achieve it in.

You give out far too much “I know the answer” advice, considering how bad a situation you are in with your health.

You seem to have a new theory every month which is the solution, until it fails and then you come up with a new theory.

I say this not to bash you, but I genuinely think it’s damaging to others for you to be giving out advice when you’re 100+ pounds overweight and managed to lose a few pounds in a few weeks.

If in 6 months you've lost 50 pounds and fixed a lot of your health problems, then it’s a different story.

You’re writing about the body temperature and pulse stuff like you’ve personally overseen the improvement of 100s of individuals. But your own improvement has only just begun. Have a bit of humility and stop dishing out advice so much.

 

[aquaman]

my experiment where I eat separate meals (protein + fat OR protein + carbs) is over. Didn’t help me. I gained body fat.

So now I’m counting calories. Striving for a 200 kCal a day deficit, more or less.

It’s a great relief because it’s easy to keep a log and just track calories. I am also tracking calcium to make sure I get more calcium than magnesium.

Easy peasy.

When you did this, we’re you eating whenever, whatever?

I’ve adopted this higher carb/lower fat day time, with a bit more fat in evening, for about 6 weeks. I have around 50-60g of fat per day, mostly in evenings. Chocolate every day. 300-350 carbs, 180 ish protein. Consistent timing of meals, and tracking everything to keep consistency per day. It’s great, easy to do and stick to. And losing about 1-2 pounds per week easy. It feels like I’m in an energy surplus through higher carb and more nutrients in general so I think my thyroid is fine like this.

Without tracking, it’s too easy to have wildly different calorie intake per day and per meal even.

So there may be a combination of tracking plus higher carb you can do.

 

[CLASH]

@ecstatichamster
Have you ever tried to experiment with dropping dairy for a while?


I personally track my macros and find it very helpful to determine what my body needs.

 

[ecstatichamster]

@CLASH at times I have dropped dairy totally. Not sure it made any difference. I could try it again but I doubt it matters.

@aquaman I was eating whenever, uses. Probably part of the problem, yes?

I think I do better with lowish fat. I think that is important at the moment. I think ultimately this fixes insulin resistance issues.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Why do people chase protein according to a formula? Why are we overthinking a perfect bio-feedback system that has been perfected over millions of years?

Well, why would you take your perfectly functioning car that has been perfected over decades to the mechanic? Simple answer, is it's not perfectly functioning.

While some of the bio-feedback systems in our bodies may be well honed or well designed, they are far from perfect. If you believe in the theory of evolution as currently presented, a haphazard process of mutations, there is no reason to think we are anywhere near the apex. That could have happened thousands of years in the past, or happen thousands of years in the future. Even if we are at the apex, there is no guarantee that any individual isn't a poor mutation.

 

[tca300]

@ecstatichamster Just eat foods that make you feel the best, don't give you gas/bloating and set your calories at a certain number for a week, weighing yourself naked every morning before you eat. See which direction your average weight goes, and adjust your calories in whatever direction you need to. Stay consistent, and remember if you eat something you don't normally, that it can cause water retetion or reduction making you seem like you either lost a lot or gained a lot. Just stay consistent and keep your calories in check. After a few weeks/month you will have a good idea as too how many calories you need to maintain your weight and can adjust accordingly as to how fast you want to lose weight. Adding or removing certain foods can also slow or increase your metabolic rate which can throw a monkey wrench into the situation, which is why I like to see people keep their diet pretty consistent, as it can add confusion.

Remember weight loss is slow, it probably took years to get that weight on, it might take a year or more to lose what you want to, that is one of the reasons people give up, impatience. Hope that helps, or added info you didn't already know.

You can do it!

 

[ecstatichamster]

@ecstatichamster Just eat foods that make you feel the best, don't give you gas/bloating and set your calories at a certain number for a week, weighing yourself naked every morning before you eat. See which direction your average weight goes, and adjust your calories in whatever direction you need to. Stay consistent, and remember if you eat something you don't normally, that it can cause water retetion or reduction making you seem like you either lost a lot or gained a lot. Just stay consistent and keep your calories in check. After a few weeks/month you will have a good idea as too how many calories you need to maintain your weight and can adjust accordingly as to how fast you want to lose weight. Adding or removing certain foods can also slow or increase your metabolic rate which can throw a monkey wrench into the situation, which is why I like to see people keep their diet pretty consistent, as it can add confusion.

Remember weight loss is slow, it probably took years to get that weight on, it might take a year or more to lose what you want to, that is one of the reasons people give up, impatience. Hope that helps, or added info you didn't already know.

You can do it!

This is much appreciated. Sensible and motivational. It’s how I think too.

 

[CLASH]

The easiest way in my experience to hammer this out is as such:

1) get cronometer

2) calculate your caloric needs using katch mccardle formula with activity multipliers

3) calculate macros. For protein, what I hAve read and found that works best is .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight. For carbs I go 40%, for fats i go 40%. I divide the totals by 4 and try to get the same amount in each meal.

*this is your baseline in terms of macros and calories. I’d run this for two weeks just to establish a normal for which to go off of

4) diet: eliminate all most common problematic foods such as dairy, wheat, Soy etc. Basically adopt a meat, fish, fruit, fruit juice, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter, perhaps palm kernel oil and vegetable (read: carrots and cooked greens) diet. These are the least allergenic foods. Run this for two weeks with the macros. I would be brutally monotonous in the beggining with your meals, eating the same thing everyday. This is all just to start.

5) stop snacking, allow your body to digest and clear itself out by optimizing the migrating motor complex, leaving 4 hours between meals.

6) once you establish a baseline add in foods you would like and test thier effects.


Weight gain, in my experience isnt really a calories thing, so much as it is an inflammation thing i.e. your eating a food that doesnt agree with you. Gotta find the foods that work for you.

Weightloss doesnt have to be slow. When I stopped eating dairy I dropped 20lbs in 2 weeks. Alot of peoples weight, especially around the gut is most likely water weight.

I have had a few people try out this higher fat diet and as soon as people increased thier fat intake from the sources i listed above with an emphasis on the long chain varieties (beef tallow, cocoa butter) they immediately lost weight around the abdomen. Why? Because i think the fats clear out the small intestine of bacteria and optimize digestion.

Not everything is based on oxidation of that nutrient. These nutrients have multiple effects beyond oxidation, its too simplistic to look at it purely that way. Its partly why I think all this eat carbs alone and eat fats alone or eat low fat because fat makes you fat is a bunch of bull****. Ray Peat talks about the fat from milk causing weight gain but i dont think its the fat; its the milk. Many people i know drink milk and blow up with hormonal issues. Some people tolerate it just fine. Its not the carbs in it, its not neccesarilly the fat, its the direct hormonal effect of the peptides in the milk.

Trying to ascertain wether its the fats or the carbs will make you spin around in circles, like this forum has been doing for a while with this low fat stuff. Look at keto people, they lose massive amounts of weight. Look at low carb people, they are putting autoimmune diseases in remission. Same thing goes for fruitarians. What about vegetarians tho? The ones that subsist on grains... they look like ***t. They do terribly health wise. What does milk do to young mammals? Its causes fat gain. It is natures weight gainer. Its not a suprise people are gaining weight on milk. Overall its the foods. Its not the fat or the carbs. The nuances make the difference.

 

[corvetteseeker]

@CLASH Since fiber is supposed to minimize ad libitum calories and fruit and fruit juice are identical otherwise, wouldn't the fruits be preferable to the fruit juice?

Also, how do you consume the cocoa butter? Just shots or something? haha

 

[ecstatichamster]

The easiest way in my experience to hammer this out is as such:

1) get cronometer

2) calculate your caloric needs using katch mccardle formula with activity multipliers

3) calculate macros. For protein, what I hAve read and found that works best is .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight. For carbs I go 40%, for fats i go 40%. I divide the totals by 4 and try to get the same amount in each meal.

*this is your baseline in terms of macros and calories. I’d run this for two weeks just to establish a normal for which to go off of

4) diet: eliminate all most common problematic foods such as dairy, wheat, Soy etc. Basically adopt a meat, fish, fruit, fruit juice, coconut oil, beef tallow, cocoa butter, perhaps palm kernel oil and vegetable (read: carrots and cooked greens) diet. These are the least allergenic foods. Run this for two weeks with the macros. I would be brutally monotonous in the beggining with your meals, eating the same thing everyday. This is all just to start.

5) stop snacking, allow your body to digest and clear itself out by optimizing the migrating motor complex, leaving 4 hours between meals.

6) once you establish a baseline add in foods you would like and test thier effects.


Weight gain, in my experience isnt really a calories thing, so much as it is an inflammation thing i.e. your eating a food that doesnt agree with you. Gotta find the foods that work for you.

Weightloss doesnt have to be slow. When I stopped eating dairy I dropped 20lbs in 2 weeks. Alot of peoples weight, especially around the gut is most likely water weight.

I have had a few people try out this higher fat diet and as soon as people increased thier fat intake from the sources i listed above with an emphasis on the long chain varieties (beef tallow, cocoa butter) they immediately lost weight around the abdomen. Why? Because i think the fats clear out the small intestine of bacteria and optimize digestion.

Not everything is based on oxidation of that nutrient. These nutrients have multiple effects beyond oxidation, its too simplistic to look at it purely that way. Its partly why I think all this eat carbs alone and eat fats alone or eat low fat because fat makes you fat is a bunch of bull****. Ray Peat talks about the fat from milk causing weight gain but i dont think its the fat; its the milk. Many people i know drink milk and blow up with hormonal issues. Some people tolerate it just fine. Its not the carbs in it, its not neccesarilly the fat, its the direct hormonal effect of the peptides in the milk.

Trying to ascertain wether its the fats or the carbs will make you spin around in circles, like this forum has been doing for a while with this low fat stuff. Look at keto people, they lose massive amounts of weight. Look at low carb people, they are putting autoimmune diseases in remission. Same thing goes for fruitarians. What about vegetarians tho? The ones that subsist on grains... they look like ***t. They do terribly health wise. What does milk do to young mammals? Its causes fat gain. It is natures weight gainer. Its not a suprise people are gaining weight on milk. Overall its the foods. Its not the fat or the carbs. The nuances make the difference.

Thank you for your experience. I stopped dairy for months at a time and experienced zero weight or body fat changes. I used to think that dairy was just terrible, “foreign proteins” from paleo days. But I no longer think that.

I have long established foods that I’m intolerant of. Legumes. Zero those. I don’t really do well with wheat. Mostly zero now. Same with corn.

I’ve done high fat many times. I’m not about to try high fat with high carbs. I did that and went from 185 to 220. Not for me.

So I’d have to reduce carbs. That would put me into ketosis to some degree. Not that keen on it. I did that for a few years. Very thyroid suppressive for me and it also caused me to eat too much because I was craving carbs so much.

I really think this formula is simple for me. Just stick to a caloric intake slightly below my daily needs. Rinse and repeat. I can eat most things, just not too much. Maybe most people would be okay with that, if they weren’t bingeing and trying so many other things that have left their metabolism a shambles.

I do think milk slows motility which is a very bad thing. I am not drinking tons of milk now, just a few glasses a day. Plenty of fruit. If I have to cut milk I will. I find the cheeses I eat (raw milk, rennet based, no enzymes, cow/sheep/goat) are not problematic. Milk seems to be a little because of its effect on gut motility. This is a serious issue and I’m watching. May have to cut out the milk. I am not living on milk this time, just drinking 2 glasses or so a day so maybe this will be okay.

And edited to add: cottage cheese may be problematic too...

 

[aquaman]

@CLASH at times I have dropped dairy totally. Not sure it made any difference. I could try it again but I doubt it matters.

@aquaman I was eating whenever, uses. Probably part of the problem, yes?

I think I do better with lowish fat. I think that is important at the moment. I think ultimately this fixes insulin resistance issues.

Yes I think you were testing 2 concepts.. free eating and the carb vs fat approach.

I’m trying to keep fat at 15-22% calories, it’s quite easy doing very low fat days knowing I can have some chocolate or ice cream with my final meal.

And I love fruit and starch combined..

 

[Jing]

dont mind me... just over here down 25-30 lbs in the last half a year eating 5000-7000 calories everyday. Most people dont seem to be diligently experimenting with valid methods to improve health and metabolism. Some of you guys post so much it'd be impossible for you to do just that. "I've tried it all" no you haven't you haven't even scratched the surface (I'm just scratching the surface). If you haven't experimented with cynomel and cynoplus (not just some dog ***t NDT that's not standardized with an arm length of ingedients at all (they're all UNSTANDARDIZED btw you can't standardize them without testing each batch on live organisms)) extensively for months (with a variety of dosages) then I dont know what to tell you. And that's just one aspect of the game. And im not talking to anyone in particular btw I see it all the time. For another example lets go down another rabbit whole.... what's your light set up? Do you have a set up where you can regularly expose yourself to AT LEAST 1500 watts of light (130v bulbs for optimum redlight to blue light ratios)? if not just....

Sorry if I come off a little harsh, Im just PASSIONATE and a little obsessive.

Calories in calories out does matter! if I ate 12000 calories a day Id probably gain weight. The point is to increase the metabolism to the point where you can eat as many calories as you can without making yourself sick and still lose weight.

5000-7000 calories a day? I only eat 3000-3500 a day and find it annoying I couldn't imagine eating 5000-7000 lol, what do you eat?

 

[Andman]

5000-7000 calories a day? I only eat 3000-3500 a day and find it annoying I couldn't imagine eating 5000-7000 lol, what do you eat?

very high doses of T3 (up to 150mcg if i remember correctly)

 

[ilikecats]

@Jing Skim milk, oj, hydrogenated coconut oil, white sugar, coke, oysters, liver, occasional beef, occasional parmigiano reggiano, daily carrot. @Andman yes, so the equivalent of six grains NDT. Recently I've switched out the last 25 mcg of T3 for a piece of cynoplus (1:4 t3:t4).