I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[Adrienlcrx]

Thanks @danielbb for all these informations, I like your philosophy, your ideas and your kindness
I try in this moment to don't combine fats +carbs and it works great for me
Just to have an idea what amount macros/calories per day do you consume with this tactic without gain weight and feel in fitform ?
Thanks to you
Sincères amitiés

 

[ecstatichamster]

I haven't lost weight but I do feel better. I don't feel like my body is working as hard digesting food this way.

 

[YourUniverse]

saving starch alone, at least an hour separated from protein/fruit meals, has been great for my digestion and energy

 

[ecstatichamster]

I also seem to find that sugar (juice) and fat doesn't impact as much as starch and fat. But I'm pretty careful.

 

[Adrienlcrx]

R

 

[MatheusPN]

He is unreasonably paranoid about it at the same time

You'are being unreasonable because he in certain context recommends egg. @danielbb Why did you try to defame Ray?

 

[Cirion]

You'are being unreasonable because he in certain context recommends egg

Once you start to track your data, you realize RP is right and he is NOT being unreasonable. (I know your post wasn't directed at me but I'm just chiming in)

So far, ALL of my top pufa intake days result in weight gain without fail.

If you're wondering why the 22.g pufa day only had 0.2 lb weight gain it's because I basically did damage control after eating pizza at a work event, and made sure to eat ONLY good foods the rest of the day (some fasting, sugar, caffeine to flush the pufa's, no fats at all, etc).

 

[MatheusPN]

Once you start to track your data, you realize RP is right and he is NOT being unreasonable. (I know your post wasn't directed at me but I'm just chiming in)

View attachment 13351

So far, ALL of my top pufa intake days result in weight gain without fail.

For sure Ray is right about PUFA, Ray is the most reasonable person I know. PUFA or MUFA slows my metabolism, pufa principally. Fasting, caffeine, vitamin E, are great ways to mitigate the harm after a high PUFA meal
Also @Cirion, my experience: after a high pufa or mufa meal, the weight, metabolism slowdown, comes after some time
I like when people do chiming in

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Hello. I've been able to have more balanced and back-and forth discussions with some of our members offline (reasonable discussions without dogma) and they have raised some very good points with me. The stuff I mentioned earlier about carb and fat mixing thresholds is valid, according to my anecdotal experience, according to science, and to scientific data backing it up. The carb/fat mixing thresholds allows one to calculate/determine with engineering precision how much fat and carbs can be tolerated at a given time (given one's genetic code that makes each individual unique and current circumstances). That may be a level of complexity that does need to be considered all that much unless we are talking about specific items like pastries, ice cream, candy, chocolate, (baked potatoes, sour cream, and butter) and so forth. I absolutely love those things and make no apologies for loving them. I believe there are reasonable ways to deal with those wonderful things but here are some thoughts that have come to me from further collaboration with people offline.

Meat:
Lean meat sources (low fat content sources) like white chicken breast, lean pork, lean burgers, lean turkey, and so forth probably can be mixed with any carb source without metabolic penalty. There may be some outlier people out there that even the small amount of fat in lean meat mixed with a high carb source may cause an issue. If you are one of those, eat low carb vegetables or fruit, if possible, with your lean meat.

Fatty meat sources (higher fat content sources) - most red meat, bacon, fatty pork chops, chicken wings, dark chicken or turkey meat, fatty burgers, and so forth, it probably is a good idea to mix these with low carb vegetables or fruit. There probably are some who can mix these with high carb sources and get away with it without suffering metabolic penalty. Note: If you bake or boil your meat (e.g., in spaghetti sauce) you can convert a high fat meat source into a lean meat source since most of the fat is boiled or baked off.

Protein in general: 80-100g per day makes no sense to me. That was the last bit of Ray Peat (he's not the only one) kool-aide I was drinking. I've looked at every possible nutrient that a human can consume and protein comes in lower doses. There is almost no protein in fruit and vegetables other than legumes. Sources such as potatoes and whole grains contain more protein. Meat sources contain the most. In order to get 80-100 grams, I'd have to start eating 4 to 5 12 oz steaks (or some other meat source) and/or add lots of legumes to come close to that amount each day. This is ridiculous. This supplement madness must stop. I will not dispute that a given person who may be currently imbalanced may react favorably to a given supplement at a given time. A balanced diet however of fruit, vegetables, whole grains including non-enriched flour, meat (when the whim occurs to you), legumes, solves all health issues. If you like milk, which I do, I've found that powdered dry milk tastes great, is low cost, good protein source, and avoids mixing issues. Some however, regular milk may be perfectly fine and healthy. I like 0% fat yogurt for the same reasons.

Legumes: More Ray Peat kool-aide. Soy may be an issue due to the pesticide issue and the potential for misbalancing (over-dosing) the body with a high phytoestrogen source. Ray may be right about the phosphate issue (e.g., probably if over-dosing) but that may be over-thinking things too much. If you eat legumes reasonably in the normal course of a balanced diet that contains many protein sources, I do not see the issue. I cannot prescribe or decide that issue for someone else however. Legumes are a miracle drug for me just like all the other whole-food sources I love and have mentioned all over this topic.

Whole grains - these are miracle drugs for me as long as I do not over-dose them (e.g., eat them reasonably in the course of a balanced diet with all the other things I like just as much), and eat from non-enriched sources.

Iron: Found in just about every substance we consume. I now suspect that enriched flour is more of an over-dosing issue than whether or not iron is toxic in general. It's found in everything. Avoid over-dosing it and you should be fine. We need iron for crying out loud just not in the quantities we get in most processed food.

PUFA: Ray has basically classified PUFA as toxic and done a pretty good job of convincing me of that. He is unreasonably paranoid about it at the same time. I am not sure there is any substance where you cannot find PUFA. It seems to me, that when dosed in high concentrations like found in vegetable and seed oils, it does become toxic as then we are talking about the over-dose situation. Anything can be over-dosed including water. There is nothing unhealthy about an avocado, for example. Eating them (or any substance) all the time may very well lead to an imbalance in your body which is the effect of any over-dose situation. Nothing is good or evil. Good things (if we classify them that way, can be over-dosed). Evil things, (if we classify some things that way) may very well be denying our bodies the healing substances we need. Even though I no longer consume alcohol, I am convinced that used reasonably (e.g., a wedding, a holiday, at home occasionally and not driving) that it is not toxic for our system and liver. Alcohol is toxic however in the "doses" many of us have used it in the past.

Some things I love and have found some reasonable work-arounds (for now but always trying to make the things I love and the way I remember them as a kid):
Ice Cream:
I mentioned Yonana frozen fruit processor. Frozen Honey Dew and Cantaloupe is delicious and simulates ice cream beautifully.

Here's a new one for ice cream I have recently discovered - it is simply to die for. 0% fat Greek Yogurt mixed with lots of honey. The tartness of the yogurt is offset beautifully by the somewhat over-sweetness of honey. I cannot describe how delicious this combination is. Completely takes care of my urge for regular-fat/sugar ice cream. All that said, I have no doubt I will create an ice cream one of these days that you will not be able to tell the difference between Dairy Queen (love Dairy Queen) and an ice cream that is either (fat-cream mixed with a low-carb source for sweetener), or (a low fat source for the cream mixed with a high carb source for sweetener). I've pretty much convinced myself that both styles are possible while avoiding metabolic issues at the same time and the best part - enjoying our lives like we were meant to.

Following someone else's prescription on life. Makes no sense. I cannot prescribe universally for anyone and neither can Ray Peat nor any other Doctor. Only the individual themselves can determine how they may react to a given food substance, supplement, pharmaceutical, and so forth. Any substance can be over-dosed including foods deemed healthy by most. I can collaborate to help people find their own unique system that offers maximum enjoyment in life while restoring complete health in reasonable time (a year or two). There are no magic pills out there but at the same time, a given pill or supplement may very well make sense at a given point in time for a given individual and given that individual's current acute state or health urgency. Perfect health is a myth but restoring balance to one's life will make you feel like you are in perfect health. Health is a balance between life and death. Something must die (e.g., animal or plant) in order for us to sustain ourselves. When we try to outsmart God, we cause problems for ourselves by misbalancing something else in our body or life. Eat those things you like, that you prepare yourself (or select healthy whole-food sources at restaurants), and over the reasonable course of time, and with reasonable exercise applied over time, I have no doubt where your particular health journey will lead - a complete restoration and healing. We will all die someday as you cannot have life on this earth without death. Our hearts are a mechanical pump that will simply wear out someday like all pumps must do. I would like to check-out someday if possible by closing my eyes, my pump stops working as the laws of nature require, and I breath my last breath without pain. That said, I'd like to at least know my great grandkids and have them know me. I believe these are reasonable goals. Eat reasonably, exercise reasonably, enjoy life fully, stop-trying to outsmart simple things, and the possibilities are there for you just like they have now come to me. God bless each and everyone of y. My many thanks and gratitude to all our current and past service members for allowing me to relax comfortably today.

Interesting post! Just something I was thinking: when you said 4 to 5 12 ounces of meat, are you referring to some really fatty meat or something? When I'm eating lean meat, 500 grams( or 16 ounces) is enough to reach 100 grams of protein.

 

[danielbb]

Interesting post! Just something I was thinking: when you said 4 to 5 12 ounces of meat, are you referring to some really fatty meat or something? When I'm eating lean meat, 500 grams( or 16 ounces) is enough to reach 100 grams of protein.

Good point Rafael. I miscalculated. 3oz of steak is about 22 grams of protein. I've tried to say over and over in this thread that I have no clue about what one body may need versus another. Neither does anyone else. Maybe some bodies need more protein per day and some need less. If I feel like going a few days on fruit and vegetables, why do I need a formula to control me and dictate things for me that may have no bearing on me? I eat what occurs naturally and leave the worrying up to nature. It was figured out millions/billions of years ago for me. I have tried to share ideas for each person to design their own unique system that is just right for themselves (I have no clue what that might be). I cannot predict that by some formula. Only the individual can decide based on simple bio-feedback with how they feel, perform, and how their health is currently and hopefully proceeding. Same goes with your Doctor and pharmaceutical prescriptions. It may help and it may not. You will not know until you try the idea.

Ray Peat has been wonderful for me pointing out the dangers of PUFA and other things like that and especially training me on how our bodies actually work. When he personally tries to cast shade on things like bananas (e.g., starch), avocados (pufa), pineapples, tomatoes, whole grains, legumes, and a host of other things that are not either good or bad (depending on the dosage), then I begin to question things. I love Ray but I have to discern for myself whether or not he makes sense. That is all I am trying to share with people. Finding a system that makes sense for you. Nobody but the individual can determine that in my opinion. This entire forum makes just about no sense to me. It is an endless display of one magic pill idea after another. Something does not make sense to me about that approach. I know scientifically and personally that things are much simpler than that. Eat a balanced, whole-food diet with some understanding about how particular substances may react (e.g., individually or when combined), and with some idea about how things if they are pre-classified as good can be overdosed, and how things that may be pre-classified as bad may be left out of a balanced diet which could in fact cause harm.

Here is a question. Can anyone name one substance on earth that we consume to sustain ourselves that does not contain PUFA? I am open-minded enough to consider that there may be some but my contention with PUFA is that in the doses must of us were exposed to from processed food and restaurants, that it is toxic due to the fact that high concentrations of it are an over-dose situation for our body. As I mentioned about alcohol. It is neither good or bad. For some, a tiny amount may be an over-dose (e.g., and lead to liver disease and alcoholism). For others, when used reasonably, there may be benefits. I suspect we can do this with most consumable substances. Water and spinach are great substances and we will most surely die in short order without water. Water can be lethally over-dosed just like any other substance however. I no longer see the need to take any supplements as I get them naturally dosed in a well-balanced diet of foods that I absolutely enjoy. That is a good way to live life. For someone else, depending on their current circumstances, a given supplement may be highly beneficial at a given time. For me to assume a given supplement that is working for me would also work equally well for you is highly presumptuous, illogical, and arrogant of me. I am trying to liberate people not give them more rules to burden their lives. I have nothing but respect for Ray Peat's research. His ideas about a proper diet do not make sense to me but they may make perfect sense to someone else. I am willing to listen to all points of view. Dogma makes no sense to me.

 

[MatheusPN]

Good point Rafael. I miscalculated. 3oz of steak is about 22 grams of protein. I've tried to say over and over in this thread that I have no clue about what one body may need versus another. Neither does anyone else. Maybe some bodies need more protein per day and some need less. If I feel like going a few days on fruit and vegetables, why do I need a formula to control me and dictate things for me that may have no bearing on me? I eat what occurs naturally and leave the worrying up to nature. It was figured out millions/billions of years ago for me. I have tried to share ideas for each person to design their own unique system that is just right for themselves (I have no clue what that might be). I cannot predict that by some formula. Only the individual can decide based on simple bio-feedback with how they feel, perform, and how their health is currently and hopefully proceeding. Same goes with your Doctor and pharmaceutical prescriptions. It may help and it may not. You will not know until you try the idea.

Ray Peat has been wonderful for me pointing out the dangers of PUFA and other things like that and especially training me on how our bodies actually work. When he personally tries to cast shade on things like bananas (e.g., starch), avocados (pufa), pineapples, tomatoes, whole grains, legumes, and a host of other things that are not either good or bad (depending on the dosage), then I begin to question things. I love Ray but I have to discern for myself whether or not he makes sense. That is all I am trying to share with people. Finding a system that makes sense for you. Nobody but the individual can determine that in my opinion. This entire forum makes just about no sense to me. It is an endless display of one magic pill idea after another. Something does not make sense to me about that approach. I know scientifically and personally that things are much simpler than that. Eat a balanced, whole-food diet with some understanding about how particular substances may react (e.g., individually or when combined), and with some idea about how things if they are pre-classified as good can be overdosed, and how things that may be pre-classified as bad may be left out of a balanced diet which could in fact cause harm.

Here is a question. Can anyone name one substance on earth that we consume to sustain ourselves that does not contain PUFA? I am open-minded enough to consider that there may be some but my contention with PUFA is that in the doses must of us were exposed to from processed food and restaurants, that it is toxic due to the fact that high concentrations of it are an over-dose situation for our body. As I mentioned about alcohol. It is neither good or bad. For some, a tiny amount may be an over-dose (e.g., and lead to liver disease and alcoholism). For others, when used reasonably, there may be benefits. I suspect we can do this with most consumable substances. Water and spinach are great substances and we will most surely die in short order without water. Water can be lethally over-dosed just like any other substance however. I no longer see the need to take any supplements as I get them naturally dosed in a well-balanced diet of foods that I absolutely enjoy. That is a good way to live life. For someone else, depending on their current circumstances, a given supplement may be highly beneficial at a given time. For me to assume a given supplement that is working for me would also work equally well for you is highly presumptuous, illogical, and arrogant of me. I am trying to liberate people not give them more rules to burden their lives. I have nothing but respect for Ray Peat's research. His ideas about a proper diet do not make sense to me but they may make perfect sense to someone else. I am willing to listen to all points of view. Dogma makes no sense to me.

Short reply
You're describing another man, except Ray, because he never say things like: all legumes is always bad, thyroid is magic you don't need vitamin A or calories to it work. He works, learns a lot with experiences. You have read any of his books or listened to his podcasts?
Ray overwhelm, annihilate dogma and reveals the debility of authoritarians and rigid people

 

[Captain_Coconut]

All fats are good in moderation. PUFA truly is essential. Vitamin E is also essential. PUFA depleted of E is poison. I avoided PUFA for years before I even knew who RP was. I was on a very low PUFA diet for over 3 years.

When I recently returned to eating nuts, something amazing happened. The skin on my fingertips began to take on a completely different quality, over the course of one month they went from dry and calloused to waxy and soft yet much stronger. I used to always have hang nails and my thumbs would bleed easily if the skin to the side of the nail was picked at. Shortly after returning to nuts I would take a shower and see what literally looked and felt like a coating of white wax on all of my fingertips, this lasted for several weeks and the quality of touch and the visible health of my cuticles all improved greatly during this time. A definite transformation occured and this was proof enough for me that PUFA really is an essential dietary fat.

The same shift was noticeable for my lips. I would get dry and cracked lips at least once a month. This has gone away after returning to consuming nuts.

 

[danielbb]

Matheus - your response to my arguments appear dogmatic to me. Ray has over 500 youtube videos and I've listened to most of them. I heard him specifically state his theory on why he believes a milk-based diet causes people to be lean and why a starch-based diet causes people to be obese. It was based on an anecdotal observation by him which he is now passing on to others like there is some scientific basis for it. When I say "cast-shade" on things, that means to say or imply something negative about things based on the substance name alone. Legumes - Ray warns about high phosphate content and high phytoestrogen content. Those may indeed be a problem if you over-dose them but I have not heard him provide context like I have attempted to do. Some may be allergic to legumes how do I know? Same for any substance. I have heard Ray (on youtube) mention negative consequences about tomatoes, pineapples, bananas, legumes, grains that include starch, avocados because of pufa content, many green vegetables, and other things I cannot recall off the top of my head. I am contending anything can have negative consequences if over-dosed and I have not heard Ray provide that context when dissing a plurality of different items and advocating for things like carrots, thyroid meds, milk, and other things.

I have a problem with milk and gave supporting scientific data and theory and my own anecdotal observations to back that up. I am also open-minded enough to know that some people may be perfectly fine with milk and even in larger quantities. I no longer drink the Ray Peat kool-aide (on proper/ideal diet) but as I have said a hundred times, I am eternally grateful to Ray for the insights he has given me. His ideas on proper diet make mostly no sense to me. His ideas of sugar as a healing substance were discovered by accident and that is what led me to him. If Ray's diet is appealing and healthy for you, go for it and stay on it. Nowhere in this thread have I attempted to do anything other than help people find what is optimal for themselves. Following someone else's prescription for my body makes no sense especially after I followed it (and many others who post on these forums) discovered serious metabolic consequences.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Good for you @Captain_Coconut

How old are you?

After what I have learned, I would never consume PUFA willingly. Dr. Peat is right on that, on really everything.

If you listen to Dr. Peat’s interviews, you realize that he doesn’t think he has all the answers. He is remarkably open and flexible because he lives in the real world and is not dogmatic in that. His articles are much more dogmatic but they are NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. I never read him saying “do not eat such and such”. His articles are theoretical. His wisdom offered in his interviews is practical and open minded.

 

[MatheusPN]

Matheus - your response to my arguments appear dogmatic to me. Ray has over 500 youtube videos and I've listened to most of them. I heard him specifically state his theory on why he believes a milk-based diet causes people to be lean and why a starch-based diet causes people to be obese. It was based on an anecdotal observation by him which he is now passing on to others like there is some scientific basis for it. When I say "cast-shade" on things, that means to say or imply something negative about things based on the substance name alone. Legumes - Ray warns about high phosphate content and high phytoestrogen content. Those may indeed be a problem if you over-dose them but I have not heard him provide context like I have attempted to do. Some may be allergic to legumes how do I know? Same for any substance. I have heard Ray (on youtube) mention negative consequences about tomatoes, pineapples, bananas, legumes, grains that include starch, avocados because of pufa content, many green vegetables, and other things I cannot recall off the top of my head. I am contending anything can have negative consequences if over-dosed and I have not heard Ray provide that context when dissing a plurality of different items and advocating for things like carrots, thyroid meds, milk, and other things.

I have a problem with milk and gave supporting scientific data and theory and my own anecdotal observations to back that up. I am also open-minded enough to know that some people may be perfectly fine with milk and even in larger quantities. I no longer drink the Ray Peat kool-aide (on proper/ideal diet) but as I have said a hundred times, I am eternally grateful to Ray for the insights he has given me. His ideas on proper diet make mostly no sense to me. His ideas of sugar as a healing substance were discovered by accident and that is what led me to him. If Ray's diet is appealing and healthy for you, go for it and stay on it. Nowhere in this thread have I attempted to do anything other than help people find what is optimal for themselves. Following someone else's prescription for my body makes no sense especially after I followed it (and many others who post on these forums) discovered serious metabolic consequences.

You have tried to help olive by imposing your ideals against him, this requires vanity or some pretension (I say ignoring the history of you two). I am more than dogmatic I am a God
You made a conflicting reply to your earlier allegations, largely because now you have described him better, a reasonable person, and the same logic that you said you apply for some things, he aproximadly also does
It is impractical to always put things into context. Go deeper and see the context in which he puts things. He said that he will be more careful after realizing that people misinterpretation him, he even didn't know his long reach
He doesn't prescribe things without context, as far as I know

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Good for you @Captain_Coconut

How old are you?

After what I have learned, I would never consume PUFA willingly. Dr. Peat is right on that, on really everything.

If you listen to Dr. Peat’s interviews, you realize that he doesn’t think he has all the answers. He is remarkably open and flexible because he lives in the real world and is not dogmatic in that. His articles are much more dogmatic but they are NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. I never read him saying “do not eat such and such”. His articles are theoretical. His wisdom offered in his interviews is practical and open minded.

I am nearing 40.

PUFA is poison without proper vitamin E. Just like sugar is poison without proper Thiamine etc. PUFA in moderation - in the form of nuts - not fried food - is completely beneficial. Unfortunately RP routinely blurs the lines between unadulterated whole foods PUFA and the poison forms.

If the largest organ of the body (the skin) is not in good shape, this must be a huge stress on the body, having poor skin is inflammatory, now if pufa demonstrably improves the integrity of my skin doesn’t that fly in the face of the reductionist all pufa is bad / all pufa = free radical damage dogma??

I’m going to guess that when I was relatively PUFA depleted, with cracking skin, that my gut integrity was also compromised, the gut and the skin are pretty similar in their form and function. Poor tissue integrity contributes to one of the true stress sources nobody can contend endotoxemia and bacterial translocation.

Blaming PUFA as the root of most health problems is irresponsible. Just because something can contribute to stress does not mean it is the source of stress and it also does not mean it serves other functions.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I am nearing 40.

PUFA is poison without proper vitamin E. Just like sugar is poison without proper Thiamine etc. PUFA in moderation - in the form of nuts - not fried food - is completely beneficial. Unfortunately RP routinely blurs the lines between unadulterated whole foods PUFA and the poison forms.

If the largest organ of the body (the skin) is not in good shape, this must be a huge stress on the body, having poor skin is inflammatory, now if pufa demonstrably improves the integrity of my skin doesn’t that fly in the face of the reductionist all pufa is bad / all pufa = free radical damage dogma??

Blaming PUFA as the root of most health problems is irresponsible. Just because something can contribute to stress does not mean it is the source of stress and it also does not mean it serves other functions.

Dr. Peat has said that if you eliminate PUFA your body makes superior Mead acid, omega 9. That is where I want to be.

There is much evidence that the fruits of PUFA are harmful and carcinogenic and cause inflammation in the body, with or without vitamin E. Good luck anyway to you.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Ray has said that there is no reason to suspect that vitamin E will prevent all of the bad effects that PUFA causes. Yes, in part, vitamin E will offer very good protection against them( for example, it will protect the gonads from peroxidation), but this isn't the only way PUFA's exert their effects.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Dr. Peat has said that if you eliminate PUFA your body makes superior Mead acid, omega 9. That is where I want to be.

There is much evidence that the fruits of PUFA are harmful and carcinogenic and cause inflammation in the body, with or without vitamin E. Good luck anyway to you.

Ray has said that there is no reason to suspect that vitamin E will prevent all of the bad effects that PUFA causes. Yes, in part, vitamin E will offer very good protection against them( for example, it will protect the gonads from peroxidation), but this isn't the only way PUFA's exert their effects.

Modulating dietary PUFA does not significantly modulate the PUFA composition of most of our cells, with the exception of adipose cells. Having excess adipose pufa is bad, I will not dispute this. Obesity is bad, check. If modulating our dietary pufa has little affect on the composition of our cells, this shows to me that our bodies need pufa and incorporate it in the lipid bi-layer preferentially, because it is essential to health. Why is this something very few people here can comprehend?? If SFA or Mead acid was so important, our lipid bilayer would already be primarily made up of these, particularly if we went years eating very little unsaturated fats, but this is not what happens. There is plenty of evidence to support that an excess of SFA in the bilayer is not health supportive.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Can't stearic acid displace PUFAs from the cell? Also, wasn't there a study showing that cells can live and reproduce in a PUFA-free environment?

haidut posted a study showing that PUFA mobilization from tissues during stress happens before other fatty acids', and PUFA even gets turned into safe fats or burned for energy. And during the refeed period, the PUFA takes longer to be replenished. If PUFAs were really that important, wouldn't the body try to conserve them as much as possible, instead of wasting them away?