I'm Trying Separate Meals - Carbs Or Fat Not Both

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Modulating dietary PUFA does not significantly modulate the PUFA composition of most of our cells, with the exception of adipose cells. Having excess adipose pufa is bad, I will not dispute this. Obesity is bad, check. If modulating our dietary pufa has little affect on the composition of our cells, this shows to me that our bodies need pufa and incorporate it in the lipid bi-layer preferentially, because it is essential to health. Why is this something very few people here can comprehend?? If SFA or Mead acid was so important, our lipid bilayer would already be primarily made up of these, particularly if we went years eating very little unsaturated fats, but this is not what happens. There is plenty of evidence to support that an excess of SFA in the bilayer is not health supportive.

I don't know anyone who eats less than 0,5 grams of PUFA per day, which is the amount that you would need to eat to both deplete PUFA and keep more from accumulating.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I don't know anyone who eats less than 0,5 grams of PUFA per day, which is the amount that you would need to eat to both deplete PUFA and keep more from accumulating.

The ratio in adipose cells is pretty much 1:1 to what ones dietary ratio is. Other cells it remains fixed unless you take extreme measures.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

The ratio in adipose cells is pretty much 1:1 to what ones dietary ratio is. Other cells it remains fixed unless you take extreme measures.

What extreme measures would these be? Prolonged fasting or an absolutely zero fat diet or what?

 

[somuch4food]

All fats are good in moderation. PUFA truly is essential. Vitamin E is also essential. PUFA depleted of E is poison. I avoided PUFA for years before I even knew who RP was. I was on a very low PUFA diet for over 3 years.

When I recently returned to eating nuts, something amazing happened. The skin on my fingertips began to take on a completely different quality, over the course of one month they went from dry and calloused to waxy and soft yet much stronger. I used to always have hang nails and my thumbs would bleed easily if the skin to the side of the nail was picked at. Shortly after returning to nuts I would take a shower and see what literally looked and felt like a coating of white wax on all of my fingertips, this lasted for several weeks and the quality of touch and the visible health of my cuticles all improved greatly during this time. A definite transformation occured and this was proof enough for me that PUFA really is an essential dietary fat.

The same shift was noticeable for my lips. I would get dry and cracked lips at least once a month. This has gone away after returning to consuming nuts.

That's interesting. I have some persisting nails and skin problems.

I am nearing 40.

PUFA is poison without proper vitamin E. Just like sugar is poison without proper Thiamine etc. PUFA in moderation - in the form of nuts - not fried food - is completely beneficial. Unfortunately RP routinely blurs the lines between unadulterated whole foods PUFA and the poison forms.

If the largest organ of the body (the skin) is not in good shape, this must be a huge stress on the body, having poor skin is inflammatory, now if pufa demonstrably improves the integrity of my skin doesn’t that fly in the face of the reductionist all pufa is bad / all pufa = free radical damage dogma??

I’m going to guess that when I was relatively PUFA depleted, with cracking skin, that my gut integrity was also compromised, the gut and the skin are pretty similar in their form and function. Poor tissue integrity contributes to one of the true stress sources nobody can contend endotoxemia and bacterial translocation.

Blaming PUFA as the root of most health problems is irresponsible. Just because something can contribute to stress does not mean it is the source of stress and it also does not mean it serves other functions.

Interesting theories. I have stopped all nuts and seeds in the last few months. I wasn't really craving them anymore.

I will try reintroducing them. I love sunflower seeds, almonds, walnuts, hazelnuts and pecans the most.

 

[RobertJM]

So nuts are just PUFA, are they? Have you had a look at various nuts on Cronometer? They are nutritional powerhouses.
Equal to milk and orange juice (especially for minerals). Also, according to Peat, PUFA is stored. So it doesn’t matter if you ingest 4.8g of PUFA per day or 40.8g of PUFA per day, your body won’t be bothering with trying to handle that volatile crap, and so it will just treat it the same way, and it gets stuffed into your tissues. Ready to come out and play at a later date.

I’m not saying that Ray Peat is necessarily right, but the one positive thing that I have noticed (the only pronounced benefit anyway of his recommendations) after 5 years of PUFA depletion, is that I have warm hands and feet. And I now have that all of the time. I’ve never had that at any point of my life (prior). Sometimes they are so warm it actually feels like a furnace.

Now compare that to my ex girlfriend who was vegan. She had peanut butter smoothies every single morning. Freezing cold skin. Freezing cold hands and feet. Always clinging to me to warm her up. But looking down on me because of the ‘ridiculous diet that I follow’. Her tissues saturated in PUFA. Of course, the lack of animal products will have also helped cool her extremities down further, so she probably wouldn’t have been that cold had some decent thermogenic protein been part of her life.

There’s nothing revolutionary (in terms of thinking) about your skin, nails and hair improving from lowering your metabolic rate. If you take in quality nutrition (and some nuts are in that category), and therefore you’re lowering your metabolic rate, it means your body isn’t ever running out of resources, and you’re operating at a slower pace. Thus things like skin, hair and nails can flourish with the rich levels of resources.

Whereas, conversely, a super low PUFA person that takes lots of strong supplements, drinks chronic amounts of coffee (overdoes it, in other words), takes thyroid and all the rest of it, is going to burn through their reserves and induce stress type reactions (which may include a decline in hair, nail as skin health). A situation that many on this forum have probably noticed (especially when the supplements are added). I think people just have to realise that depleting PUFA is almost like taking a strong supplement itself. So you really don’t need to throw the kitchen sink on top.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I was serperating fats from carbs for about two weeks after some initial sporadic experimentation. I was eating between 20-80g of cocoa butter and coconut oil in the mornings, sometime with sugar an hour or so beforehand, sometime not. Sometime with meat, sometimes not.

To make a decent meal calorie wise out of fat you have to eat a fair bit. I tried it just about everyway I could think of and in a wide range of dosages. At first my digestion was relatively stable with the large amount of SFA and I got a massive burst of energy in the afternoon. This turned out to be huge adrenaline spikes which would often keep me awake at night and be accompanied by very pronounced hypoglycemia.

Ny digestion got worse and worse over the two weeks. I was interested in the effects all that fat might have on my gallbladder and liver. By the end of it I was left wondering how the hell anyone could interpret the bodies response to high fat as favourable.. all my other meals were virtually fat free at this time.



I came across a presentation by a woman some of you may know, Denise Minger. I really connected with her presentation and the idea of carbosis and have pretty much given up on fat being a decent aource of calories and utilised as a 'meal'.

Since dropping my fat right back down I've noticed huge benefits in energy and blood sugar regulation which is what lead me to try the high fat meal and fat serperation. I just want to reiterate that I tried it just about every way in all different ratios, heated, not heat, without coconut oil, with coconut oil, with meat, meat an hour afterwards etc.

It would be amazing to have a very low fat thread and hear some others experiences with it.

For any interested in Grant Genereux I think it's very important to note that his diet was very low in fat. Healing of CKD has been reported before on very low fat diets.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion on very low fat diets. PUfA is meant to deplete under 0.5g intake per day. You need a very low fat intake to get to that point.

Diet at the moment consists of:

Rice
Bread and pasta
Banannas
Potatoes
Lean beef, usually biltong

 

[OceanSpray]

The logic dictates that if PUfA ‘depletion’ is only attainable at a daily dose of 0.5g, which is a practically unrealistic dose at any but the most orthorexic of diets, then perhaps a PUFA ‘depletion’ is not necessary for optimal health. Perhaps just keeping it low will do.

Btw, those 0.5 grams, is that one of the multitude of made up facts or did Peat actually say it?

 

[Yi at LDT]

Haidut was talking about a monkery study where 'PUFA depleteion' was succesful, however just one high PUFA meal undid all of the PUFA depletion.. Makes you wonder

 

[aquaman]

I was serperating fats from carbs for about two weeks after some initial sporadic experimentation. I was eating between 20-80g of cocoa butter and coconut oil in the mornings, sometime with sugar an hour or so beforehand, sometime not. Sometime with meat, sometimes not.


Since dropping my fat right back down I've noticed huge benefits in energy and blood sugar regulation which is what lead me to try the high fat meal and fat serperation. I just want to reiterate that I tried it just about every way in all different ratios, heated, not heat, without coconut oil, with coconut oil, with meat, meat an hour afterwards etc.

[/MEDIA]

No wonder you had issues if you were eating up to 80g of fat in the morning.

Read Olive’s posts about his approach.. high fruit and protein the mornings, more fat focus in the evening.

I find it works great. I find I need still some fat with the carb and protein meals in the morning and day to warm up though.

 

[aquaman]

So nuts are just PUFA, are they? Have you had a look at various nuts on Cronometer? They are nutritional powerhouses.
Equal to milk and orange juice (especially for minerals). Also, according to Peat, PUFA is stored. So it doesn’t matter if you ingest 4.8g of PUFA per day or 40.8g of PUFA per day, your body won’t be bothering with trying to handle that volatile crap, and so it will just treat it the same way, and it gets stuffed into your tissues. Ready to come out and play at a later date.

Of course 40.8 vs 4.8 makes a HUGE difference.

Ray says saturated fat is preferentially oxidised.

If you’re taking in 25grams of SFA and 5 of PUFA, the PUFA will still be oxidised.

 

[Yi at LDT]

No wonder you had issues if you were eating up to 80g of fat in the morning.

Read Olive’s posts about his approach.. high fruit and protein the mornings, more fat focus in the evening.

I find it works great. I find I need still some fat with the carb and protein meals in the morning and day to warm up though.

Can you link to the post? I would look up the user but I'm not too familiar with them and 'olive' is a bit ambiguous.

Interested to give it a read. I think there's a lot to be said for meal timing

 

[aquaman]

Can you link to the post? I would look up the user but I'm not too familiar with them and 'olive' is a bit ambiguous.

Interested to give it a read. I think there's a lot to be said for meal timing

There are lots.

Go to search function and type Olive in username, and read his posts particularly in this thread I believe

 

[Yi at LDT]

Thanks so much

 

[Collden]

Interesting thread. I was doing a more high-fat/high-carb diet for the past two weeks after many years of predominantly low-fat high-starch/sugar eating.

My initial response in the first days was positive with increased libido/temps/appetite but after that my digestion started to get progressively more backed up with severe GERD and bloating eating lots of fat with every meal.

Given the positive responses to doing the high-fat meal either in the morning or the evening, could it be the take home message is rather that it is beneficial to occasionally, like once a day, have a high-fat meal to stimulate bile and clean out your gut, but less important when you have it? And perhaps the more important thing is not to separate carbs from fats but rather to keep the fat mostly contained to one meal per day?

So,
Chronic low-fat = Bacterial overgrowth and hormone deficiency

Chronic low-carb = Thyroid suppression

Chronic high-fat/high-carb = Indigestion

Mostly low-fat with occasional high-fat meals = Optimal?

 

[ExCarniv]

Interesting thread. I was doing a more high-fat/high-carb diet for the past two weeks after many years of predominantly low-fat high-starch/sugar eating.

My initial response in the first days was positive with increased libido/temps/appetite but after that my digestion started to get progressively more backed up with severe GERD and bloating eating lots of fat with every meal.

Given the positive responses to doing the high-fat meal either in the morning or the evening, could it be the take home message is rather that it is beneficial to occasionally, like once a day, have a high-fat meal to stimulate bile and clean out your gut, but less important when you have it? And perhaps the more important thing is not to separate carbs from fats but rather to keep the fat mostly contained to one meal per day?

So,
Chronic low-fat = Bacterial overgrowth and hormone deficiency

Chronic low-carb = Thyroid suppression

Chronic high-fat/high-carb = Indigestion

Mostly low-fat with occasional high-fat meals = Optimal?

3 to 1 Carb to protein
2 to 1 protein to fat

Works well for me.

Whenever I go too low on fat I feel "dry"

 

[somuch4food]

Interesting thread. I was doing a more high-fat/high-carb diet for the past two weeks after many years of predominantly low-fat high-starch/sugar eating.

My initial response in the first days was positive with increased libido/temps/appetite but after that my digestion started to get progressively more backed up with severe GERD and bloating eating lots of fat with every meal.

Given the positive responses to doing the high-fat meal either in the morning or the evening, could it be the take home message is rather that it is beneficial to occasionally, like once a day, have a high-fat meal to stimulate bile and clean out your gut, but less important when you have it? And perhaps the more important thing is not to separate carbs from fats but rather to keep the fat mostly contained to one meal per day?

So,
Chronic low-fat = Bacterial overgrowth and hormone deficiency

Chronic low-carb = Thyroid suppression

Chronic high-fat/high-carb = Indigestion

Mostly low-fat with occasional high-fat meals = Optimal?

That might work well. I was finding it difficult to have low carbs/high fat meals regularly, but a high fat without being low carbs meal is more doable.

 

[Yi at LDT]

I'm with you @Collden. Low fat with pregnenolone has been working great for me. The occasional high fat meal does feel restorative, however if I follow it up with another moderate to high fat meal then I'm back in metabolic swampland. My liver doesn't love high fat I feel and I do think too much saturated fat causes me problems with a certain 'vitamin'.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I found separating was difficult, and unpalatable.

I do like low-ISH fat but not low fat that much. I agree with Dr. Peat that some fat makes food more digestible.

 

[ExCarniv]

I found separating was difficult, and unpalatable.

I do like low-ISH fat but not low fat that much. I agree with Dr. Peat that some fat makes food more digestible.

Yes some fat makes food, specially starch more palatable and easy to digest, that's why humans paired potatoes with sat fat, rice with animal fats, bread and butter etc, is not a coincidence.

If you eat 100/120g of protein, then 50-60g of fat is a good start.